Amph ASOIAF: "A Clash of Kings" Chapter-by-Chapter: Chapter Thirty-Two: Sansa

Discussion in 'Archive: The Amphitheatre' started by Nevermind, Jun 14, 2011.

  1. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

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    Actually, there is a Dany chapter tonight. Once I stopped taking them seriously, I found that I could tolerate them much better. She's as big a twit as Sansa, though; so far anyway.
  2. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

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    There is something about the Sansa chapters I enjoy about silly fantasies getting dashed by reality -- mostly because I think it's men and women believing those sorts of silly fantasies that make war more likely.

    However I continue to see Martin dropping the ball in terms of style. I'll give a for instance:

    In the last Sansa Chapter that I finished (the tourney -- so her second POV chapter) it talks at length about the knight of flowers unseating an opponent, then coming around to give Sansa a flower. It then explicitly ends off a paragraph with the sentiment that the unseated opponent was carried off in a gurney of some sort and that Sansa doesn't notice that one bit.

    I can appreciate Martin's attempt here, but he's at least partially breaking the POV of the POV character. He's shown a number of times to hit the reader with a passing revelation of things seen in earlier chapters that characters then later comment on or reveal, which can be quite effective and interesting, though at this point in the story he's only done this two or three times. But he's not equal here in the application. Did Sansa see the injured knight or not? If she did not, what is the unseen image doing in her POV chapter? It's breaking from third person POV to third-person omniscient. Both are perfectly acceptable forms, but you're not supposed to bleed from one to the other in mid-narrative. Not unless you have a reason.

    What Martin should have done here is think in terms of television or film -- ironic since the former is his background. Ultimately, he wants that image so Sansa needs to see it. But he also wants to convey how she doesn't enter that world, so to speak.

    The solution is to do something similar to what was done in the show, and have Sansa see and react. Here, the best thing to do would have been for the knight of flowers to pull up and give the flower, then as soon as he marched on she could see, directly behind where he was standing before her mounted on his horse, his bleeding and injured opponent being hauled away.
  3. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

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    The rotating POV is a terrible straightjacket in just the way you've noted; and Martin really doesn't use it to its full advantage in characterization, at least not in this book.

    I like ironic voice narration much better, in general, and think he might have had a lot less trouble in writing the books if he had done it that way.
  4. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

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    A POV, in my view, is essentially a trade-off: what you lose in ease of information relay to the reader you gain in a more emotional depiction of the character.

    The writer needs to understand that, unless they're going for something very stylistically unconventional/experimental, or something. And Martin experiments with genre conventions, not style (the former's a lot easier and more limited than the latter).

    Yeah, maybe you have a great idea for an image, or an idea to convey. But sorry, if you're conducting a POV and your POV-character can't see it, you're SOL. Either re-jig the idea to get your POV character into a vantage point, or move on.

    I don't have a problem with the rotating POVs so long as the chapter in question stays in the POV. When it ventures outside of it in mid-narrative, that gets annoying because it was something I had to train myself against back when I was 19-21 or so because I'd do that, and get my butt handed back to me by more experienced writers. The story needs at least a bare minimum of 4 POVs to just get the core tales that are relevant int he first book: Dany, Jon, Tyrion, and someone from the King's landing environment (not Eddard, since you need someone to outlive him -- so either Sansa or Arya). We have a total of 7 POVs, I think, so that's not so bad. If I can read a collection of short-stories one after the other, I figure I could handle the entire book having each chapter be from an entirely different POV character. I don't know what that would demand in terms of story mechanics -- it would probably be an exhausting effort to re-create the story and scenes, and deciding how much to invest in each POV -- but I could see it theoretically working. In Martin's hands, probably not, but in somebody's. Heck, James Joyce did it in "Ulysses" IIRC (The Wandering Rocks, I think it was).

    I do agree that Martin does not use the POV rotation to its full advantage, though. He's gotten a handle on throwing something at the reader that is later re-visited from a different angle (the deserter executed from the Wall is only revealed to be one of the men from the prologue much later after that execution takes place), but he doesn't have the best handle on giving characters an internal 'voice', so to speak. From what I've seen Sansa's is maybe the most coherently different, but even that is more told than shown. He TELLS us what Sansa is not noticing more than he's showing it.
  5. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

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    The other difficulty with the POV is that it is one chapter and we're out. Usually just when the chapter starts to get interesting, and then we're off to another character of minimal interest. This becomes both annoying and confusing once the cast of characters becomes too large to keep track of easily.


    Chapter Sixty-Five: Daenerys

    Summary: Dany becomes a widow. Black widow, that is.

    Some Thoughts: As usual, the Dany chapters are hilariously over-the-top. Mucho repetition. I see what Martin?s aiming for. I just don?t think he hits ye target. After awhile, I begin to tune it out because Dany?s a tower of cardboard, and I just don?t care about her, except to note what a complete Mary Sue she is. Bella Swan with bells on. [shudder]

    For ye Fanboys: The sex with the insensate Conan

    For ye Fangirls: The murder of the insensate Conan, by dear old Dany, with angst.

    Where Have I Seen This Before? Dept: ESB (the tree vision=Dany sees her own face under Rhaegar?s visor); the Nibelungenlied (the Huns, son)

    Fantasy Tropes: Black Magic

    The Awesome Scene Syndrome Dept: Death of Attila, I mean Conan.

    Improbability Dept.: I frankly think Mirri Maz Duur?s point was absolutely well taken, but why does she stick around once she?s taken her revenge? Run for it, stupid.

    Metaphors for Dummies: The embryonic dragon that Dany miscarries.

    Purple Prose: Choose anything.

    Le Mot injuste: ?He had been dead for years.? He hadn?t been in embryo for a year, let alone years.

    It's So Good I have to repeat it: ?don?t want to wake the dragon, do you?? x eight, diminishing by a word or each time. This is known as bad style.

    The Department of Silly Names: Mirri Maz Duur

    What we learn: Conan was only good for sex and violence, and when Dany discovers he isn?t any good for either of them now, she kills him. For her, this is probably the equivalent of her fourth idea ever.

    Not thinking it out: The lesson Dany learns is: beware of people with three names.

    What I liked: The maegi takes her revenge; as noted, she had her reasons, which seemed sensible enough to me.

    What I didn?t (in particular): A lot of stylistic tropes = tedium

    Criminal Record: Record: 4 murders, 2 executions, twincest, 2 treasons, attempted murder of a child, child endangerment by proxy, pimping, pedophilia, indecent exposure, 12 knifing deaths at a wedding reception; 3 child murders, one wolf kill, two wolf attacks, one wolf execution, one wolf attack on a dwarf, nine battle deaths, conspiracy to commit murder, four sword melees with numerous deaths, one wolf attack on a maester, 5 outlaws killed, 1 knight killed in combat, one goat theft, one gang rape, 2 pillages, 2 lese majeste, 2 regicides, one zomicide, one assassination attempt, one lynching, numerous rapes, 2 battle melees,

    POVs to date: 8

    Daenerys' character arc to date: tit-twist by bro/deflowered by Conan the Barbarian/Weans Conan from doggie-style/Sleeps with a dragon?s egg/Eats horse?s heart and watches brother tortured to death as a chaser/Drags chained naked guy behind her horse and fries some dragon eggs/Engages a midwife from a pillaged village/Is stoned/Smothers spouse when he won?t have sex with her/

    Rating: 1/5



  6. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Jun 2, 2007
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    You really think that's the reason why Dany killed Drogo? Wow. Just wow.
    [image=http://watchplayread.com/files/2009/08/DoubleFacePalm.jpg]
  7. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

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    You really think that he's being serious? We're 60-odd chapters into this thread and it hasn't occurred to you that maybe some of the statements are not meant 100% literally?
    [image=http://i395.photobucket.com/albums/pp39/darthramza/facepalm2.jpg]
  8. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

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    Chapter Sixty-Six: Tyrion

    Summary: The Lannisters are in trouble; Renly enters the lists; Tyrion is appointed Hand.

    Some Thoughts: Martin abandons the POV in a way, here; instead of showing the battle, he has the audience told about it. Given the complexities of the scene, this is the quick and easy way to do it; essentially, he has gone to the narrator style here. The result is that this chapter covers much more ground than usual.

    For ye Fanboys: Rob Stark wins ye battle

    Where Have I Seen This Before? Dept: Tywin?s contempt for the butcher?s son, Janos Slynt = the 3rd Duke of Norfolk v. Thomas Wosley

    Fantasy Tropes: Cain and Abel (Stannis and Renly)

    Query: Okay, Tywin has 2 sons, and Jaime?s in the Kingsguard (and thus?in theory-- celibate) and Tyrion?s a dwarf (which means he may not be able to father children by conventional wisdom, and if he does they may inherit the dwarfism). And Tywin doesn?t remarry? Does he strike you as the sentimental type? Because he?s not drawn that way.

    Speaking Forsoothly: ?...you chinless craven...?

    The Department of Silly Names: Forley Prester, Harys Swyft, Vargo Hoat

    Characterization: Tywin is a snob, but not stupid.

    What we learn: The Kingdoms are breaking down into their component parts.

    Not thinking it out: If Renley is the younger brother, what claim has he? And appointing Tyrion Hand is just asking for trouble. He likes to talk too much, and he is not as smart as he imagines. Of course, Daddy dearest could be setting him up for failure, but that also puts Joffrey in trouble.

    What I liked: The narration allowed me to understand the battle much better.

    What I didn?t (in particular): Tyrion?s still pretty tedious.

    Criminal Record: 4 murders, 2 executions, twincest, 2 treasons, attempted murder of a child, child endangerment by proxy, pimping, pedophilia, indecent exposure, 12 knifing deaths at a wedding reception; 3 child murders, one wolf kill, two wolf attacks, one wolf execution, one wolf attack on a dwarf, nine battle deaths, conspiracy to commit murder, four sword melees with numerous deaths, one wolf attack on a maester, 5 outlaws killed, 1 knight killed in combat, one goat theft, one gang rape, 2 pillages, 2 lese majeste, 2 regicides, one zomicide, one assassination attempt, one lynching, numerous rapes, 3 battle melees

    POVs to date: 8

    Tyrion's character arc to date: Slaps nephew/Talks too much/Duels with crab forks/rhymes ?craven? with ?raven?/Confesses his sins to a breast-feeder and breast-feedee/steals goat/Acquires a hairy entourage/Loses half the hairy entourage in battle/Appointed Hand of inbred psychotic/

    Rating: 3/5

  9. MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper

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    Tywin's still obssessed with getting Jaime out of the Kingsguard (which he never wanted) and back to his inheritance. And by all accounts, he actually loved Joanna. He may not be sentimental in politics but given the plethora of other Lannister heirs (Kevan, Daven, Lancel, etc) I can see why he didn't feel the need to remarry. There's no need to shore up alliances with anybody for most of the time he's single.
  10. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Jun 2, 2007
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    Correct, Renly does not have any claim to the throne as long as Stannis is alive. But he thinks he should be the one to take the throne because he is better liked by the people than Stannis is. And his arrogance is much more apparent in the next book when he and Stannis meet face-to-face.
  11. MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper

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    Renly's claim is the hundred thousand men his boyfriend has managed to get over to his side.
  12. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

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    Yeah, who needs legitimacy when you've got an army?
  13. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

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    Good point.

    Re: Tywin. He still has a sex life, so why not get more sons? He is not required to love or spent much time with Wife 2.
  14. severian28 Force Ghost

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    Apr 1, 2004
    star 5
    tywin is the biggest hypocrite in westeros as you'll find out.
  15. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

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    star 6
    Chapter Sixty-Seven: Jon

    Summary: Jon chooses between his brothers and the Brotherhood

    Some Thoughts: The Black Watch?s oaths are a bit elastic

    For ye Fanboys: The Buried Treasures.

    Fantasy Tropes: Badass Creed


    Is this a Fantasy Novel or Project Runway? Again, minute descriptions of clothing. Black clothing, at that.

    Is this a Fantasy Novel or The Food Network? Mormont?s breakfast, including scurvy cure.

    Le Mot injuste: ?Maege is a hoary old snark...?

    It's So Good I have to repeat it: The blood of the First Men run in the Starks.

    What I liked: Jon rightly wonders if Master Aemon chose the Black Watch out of strength or weakness. (I?m guessing an inferiority simplex...an honest acknowledgement that he was not up to the job of king). Also liked Mole?s Town.

    What I didn?t (in particular): Jon?s stupidity.

    Criminal Record: 4 murders, 2 executions, twincest, 2 treasons, attempted murder of a child, child endangerment by proxy, pimping, pedophilia, indecent exposure, 12 knifing deaths at a wedding reception; 3 child murders, one wolf kill, two wolf attacks, one wolf execution, one wolf attack on a dwarf, nine battle deaths, conspiracy to commit murder, four sword melees with numerous deaths, one wolf attack on a maester, 5 outlaws killed, 1 knight killed in combat, one goat theft, one gang rape, 2 pillages, 2 lese majeste, 2 regicides, one zomicide, one assassination attempt, one lynching, numerous rapes, 3 battle melees, 1 aborted desertion.

    POVs to date: 8

    Jon's character arc to date: Gets drunk/Has shindy with his stepmother/Gets an attitude adjustment/Passes the attitude adjustment on/Intervenes in recruitment/Pouts when he is sorted into Hufflepuff/Fights off zombies storming da castle/Suffers a chorus of raven, but does *not* rhyme it with ?craven?/His desertion is foiled by his pals and his dilatory direwolf/

    Rating: 2.5/5
  16. severian28 Force Ghost

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    Apr 1, 2004
    star 5
    What I liked: Jon rightly wonders if Master Aemon chose the Black Watch out of strength or weakness. (I?m guessing an inferiority simplex...an honest acknowledgement that he was not up to the job of king). Also liked Mole?s Town


    thats totally not how that scene reads ye celebrity mod lol, but since you claim to know quite assuredly how people are supposed to act during medeival beheadings and murders and that literature only exists if it was written before the advent of tv and the such, its also totally not surprising that you read it that way


    Is this a Fantasy Novel or Project Runway? Again, minute descriptions of clothing. Black clothing, at that.

    Is this a Fantasy Novel or The Food Network? Mormont?s breakfast, including scurvy cure



    ive been suspecting for awhile now that your influenced by reality tv hahaha
  17. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 14, 2001
    star 6
    Chapter Sixty-Eight: Catelyn

    Summary: Rob is acclaimed as King of the North and/or King of Winter; Hoster Tully is dying.

    Some Thoughts: Catelyn chapters?in general?could really use a toe dragon or two.

    For ye Fanboys: Rob gets to be King of the Castle

    Where Have I Seen This Before? The brothers of Edward IV

    The Bling of War: Ser Tytos Blackwood?s bright yellow armour and raven-feather cloak. Highly practical for sword-swinging.

    Le Mot injuste: ?...a hard pike of a man...? Pike? A pike is a fish. They are not particularly hard.

    Unfortunate Mental Image Dept: Littlefinger sticking his tongue in Catelyn?s and Lysa?s mouths when they was ten and he was seven or eight. (As usual, the character?s behaviour is too old for their ages.)

    What we learn: Stannis does nothing, Renly does something.

    Not thinking it out: Renly still has no right to the throne other than that he wants it and his boyfriend wants what he wants.

    What I liked: Catelyn thinks about the rust on the defences

    What I didn?t (in particular): Exposition and nostaglia

    Criminal Record: 4 murders, 2 executions, twincest, 2 treasons, attempted murder of a child, child endangerment by proxy, pimping, pedophilia, indecent exposure, 12 knifing deaths at a wedding reception; 3 child murders, one wolf kill, two wolf attacks, one wolf execution, one wolf attack on a dwarf, nine battle deaths, conspiracy to commit murder, four sword melees with numerous deaths, one wolf attack on a maester, 5 outlaws killed, 1 knight killed in combat, one goat theft, one gang rape, 2 pillages, 2 lese majeste, 2 regicides, one zomicide, one assassination attempt, one lynching, numerous rapes, 3 battle melees, 1 aborted desertion, two rebellions

    POVs to date: 8

    Complains about husband's bastard/Complains about husband's bastard/Foils assassination attempt on her son/Is told the assassin's name by her ex-boyfriend and an eunuch/Arrests Tyrion for attempted murder, bad puns and trying to steal her hotel room/Climbs a mountain in the dark with bastard/Watches younger sister behave in an even stupider way that her own/Decides to abandon her younger sons at Winterfall/Makes a deal with a superannuated weasel/Sits around watching a battle because Martin needs a POV/Remembers prepubescent sex scene/

    Rating: 1/5

  18. tjace Force Ghost

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    Feb 11, 2008
    star 4
    So just to be clear, when you say "Renly's boyfriend," are you referring to Loras Tyrell? o_O Kinda lost me there.
  19. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6

    A pike is also a spear-like weapon.


    Yep, Loras and Renly are gay for each other. The show made this blatantly obvious, but it's there in the text if you look hard enough.
  20. tjace Force Ghost

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    Feb 11, 2008
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    Huh. Fooled me. But then, I try not to look too closely for that kind of thing. I also haven't seen the show yet.
  21. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Evidence from the text:

    ACOK:

    ?...I got Margaery. You?ll be pleased to know she came to me a maid.?
    ?In your bed she?s like to die that way.?


    ?Loras, stay and help me pray. It?s been so long I?ve quite forgotten how.?
    Later...
    ?We had...we had prayed together that night.?


    ASOS:

    Varys had suggested the woman to him; in former days, she had run Lord Renly?s household in the city, which had given her a great deal of practice at being blind, deaf and mute.



    ?And it relieved him {Mace} of the difficult task of trying to find lands and a bride for a third son, never easy, and doubly difficult in Ser Loras?s case.?



    ?There are those who say that Ser Loras is better than Leo Longthorn ever was,? said Tyrion.
    ?Renly?s little rose? I doubt that.?



    ?Now sheathe your bloody sword, or I?ll take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found.?
  22. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

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    Not to mention the whole rainbow guard thing.:p
  23. MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper

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    The Rainbow Guard is based on the seven colours of the Seven, and not Renly being gay, per GRRM. He claims to have not intended any implications, though they are obviously there.
  24. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 14, 2001
    star 6

    Now *that's* embarrassing. You're right, of course; forgive my Canadianism, I've never used a pike, but I've caught a few, and given them a coup de grace with a pop bottle...they have nasty beaks and teeth so you have to move fast.
  25. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

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    He can spin it however he wants, but seeing as Renly is gay and that's the precise moment when it occurred to me that he might be... it's either a very happy accident or he's covering for... some strange reason.