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Amph ASOIAF: "A Clash of Kings" Chapter-by-Chapter: Chapter Thirty-Two: Sansa

Discussion in 'Archive: The Amphitheatre' started by Nevermind, Jun 14, 2011.

  1. MarcusP2

    MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 2004
    Stannis is a complete hardass, and I like that despite being the one nobody really supports or wants to see become king he is still sticking around 4 books later. Plus he's the only king-contender that actually cares about the ice zombies and the possibility that he won't have a kingdom to rule. Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken should be his personal motto.

    Melisandre isn't a demon though.
     
  2. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jun 2, 2007
    To Cressen, she is. He fears that the religion he has followed all his life is being replaced by this alternate faith, and he is such a zealot of the Seven that he wants to eliminate any nonbelievers.
     
  3. severian28

    severian28 Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 1, 2004
    This prologue has major ramifications to the overall story thats not immediately apparent. [hl=black]Cressen is the only person known in that world that stopped the grey scale from killing someone that was afflicted by it[/hl]
     
  4. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 14, 2001
    Bad news for Griff, too.

    It's absolutely typical of Stannis that he should utterly despise the houses that support him. He wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would offer him membership; he wants the cool kids to love him, even while railing against their superficiality in supporting Renly.
     
  5. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    I've seen no evidence he cares about this at all. He moved North in a desperate grasp at legitimacy that he couldn't get any other way. Once there, his only meaningful intervention was against a hated enemy of the Northern houses that helped curry their favor. Afterward, he lost himself completely to politicking, except it was only more stupid and unjustifiable this time in that A)he had more evidence of an actual threat B)he seemed willing to make moves that would decimate the Brotherhood more quickly than decades of anyone else's active neglect (ie No one thought it was an over-reaction when they smuggled away Aemon to prevent Stannis from using him as a human sacrifice) and C)he's playing for regional rather than national stakes. You are literally praising him for doing less, with less justification. Never mind that this is all driven by the fact that he's in the thrall of some sort of weird perverted sexual thing.
     
  6. MarcusP2

    MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Jul 10, 2004
    I got the impression from DwD that there are two versions of the disease, and Shireen's survival wasn't particularly uncommon.

    The grey plague is the version Connington has, and that's worse.
     
  7. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jun 2, 2007
    Wasn't there someone at the Wall in ADWD who was completely freaking out when he saw Shireen, though?
     
  8. MarcusP2

    MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Jul 10, 2004
    That was Mance's wife; the wildlings kill children with grayscale because they think it will come back as the gray death. No evidence on whether that's true or not, it could be superstition.
     
  9. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 14, 2001
    His SIL, wasn't it? Val. She kept insisting Shireen was dead.

    Chapter One: Arya

    Summary: Arya (age 9) joins the Black Watch and beats up two hobbledehoy thugs. With a wooden sword. Check your skepticism at the door.

    Some Thoughts: See Summary.

    For ye Fangirls: See Summary

    Where Have I Seen This Before? Dept: David & Goliath

    Fantasy Tropes: Action girl

    The Awesome Scene Syndrome Dept: See Summary

    Improbability Dept.: See Summary.

    Clanging Coincidence: I?m guessing the Bull is Gendry.

    Too Much Information: ?with his breeches brown and smelly?

    Unfortunate Mental Image Dept: ?she lunged, right between his legs, so hard that if her wooden sword had had a point it would have come out between his butt cheeks.?

    What we learn: Eddard was supposed to take the black

    What I liked: Yoren actually punishes Arya

    What I didn?t (in particular): This chapter is completely unbelievable.

    Criminal Record: One poisoning; one thrashing;

    POVs to date: 2

    Arya's character arc to date: Is given razor-sharp dangerous sword/Is allowed to keep razor-sharp dangerous sword/Goes cat-catching so that she can help out with Bad Exposition/Uses razor-sharp sword to commit her first murder at age nine/Witnesses Dad?s decapitation/beats up thug until he soils himself/

    Rating:1/5

     
  10. MarcusP2

    MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Jul 10, 2004
    Yes, I always get confused between Val and Dalla (though Dalla is dead.)

    And these two thugs that Arys beat up are 11 or 12, are they not? Not like she trashed some bandits.
     
  11. severian28

    severian28 Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 1, 2004

    Yes. Its the same disease and Cressen was the only person that we know of that was able to stop it spreading through a person unless i missed something, which is totally possible :)~

    Arya (age 9) joins the Black Watch and beats up two hobbledehoy thugs. With a wooden sword. Check your skepticism at the door


    They're children, shes trained with a sword, and its quite established that she has great apitude to be martial. I'd be skeptical if it went the other way.

    This chapter is completely unbelievable.

    Whats unbelievable is the way you selectively suspend your disbelief ;-), not that this chapter requires that at any great length, lol...
     
  12. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 14, 2001
    A prepubescent female is very small, and has little to no physical strength.

    Here's the scene from the TV show (through the magic of YouTube)

    [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFU5cObsWhc]Arya and the Bullies[/link]

    Now the kid who plays Arya here was born in 1997. She's 13 or so at filming, and even with *that* the scene is just barely believable with four extra years.
     
  13. Sniper_Wolf

    Sniper_Wolf Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 26, 2002
    Funny stuff so far, Nevermind. I'm a fan of the series, but I don't take myself too seriously. I felt ACOK was the best one, and that Martin did try to improve the length of his chapters. Cheerio. I'm ready to read more. I also agree on Arya. I just skip her whenever I reread the books.

    Re the chapter: Not to be the Devil's Advocate, but as someone who has an eight year-old sister I have to back Nevermind on this one. I'm around too many of them to believe that can happen. This isn't a child shooting a gun from behind.
     
  14. Penguinator

    Penguinator RPF Modinator and Batmanager star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    May 23, 2005
    Arya's pretty battle-hardened despite having not really done much battling.
     
  15. Kyptastic

    Kyptastic VIP star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 10, 2005
    How is this scene barely believable? She gets pushed around and then threatens a bully with a proper sword. No real strength required.
     
  16. MarcusP2

    MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Jul 10, 2004
    In ADWD we are told that the Gray Death always begins at the extremities. Shireen's never been mentioned as having any problems with her hands or feet, it seems to have gone straight to some part of her face/neck. I never got the impression that Shireen was totally unique for having survived; people tend to think how sad it is she is cursed with scarring as well, not 'wow, at least she survived this invariably fatal disease'.

    I'm sure they're related somehow, cowpox/smallpox style, but I'm not convinced they are the same disease.
     
  17. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 14, 2001
    The Grey Death seems to be based upon leprosy, I would guess


    . In the book, she used a wooden sword, not the real one.
     
  18. Kyptastic

    Kyptastic VIP star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 10, 2005
    Ah, gotcha. Thought you meant that the scene from the show was unbelievable.
     
  19. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 14, 2001
    No; it's *more* believable than the book, because the TV producers cast all the younger characters four to five years older than the book, according to the posters upthread. Good idea, definitely.
     
  20. Kyptastic

    Kyptastic VIP star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 10, 2005
    Well, Martin did say previously that he wished he hadn't made the children so young at the first place and that the shows ages are a better fit for the actions they take.
     
  21. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jun 2, 2007
    The girls' ages are important to their arcs in books 1-2, though. Arya masquerades as a boy, and Sansa is waiting on her first "flowering" to be able to marry Joffrey.
     
  22. Gonk

    Gonk Jedi Knight star 6

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    Jul 8, 1998
    It's absolutely typical of Stannis that he should utterly despise the houses that support him. He wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would offer him membership; he wants the cool kids to love him, even while railing against their superficiality in supporting Renly.

    That's Nixon, all right.

    Now the kid who plays Arya here was born in 1997. She's 13 or so at filming, and even with *that* the scene is just barely believable with four extra years.

    Told ya the series was better. :D
     
  23. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 14, 2001
    Chapter Two: Sansa

    Summary: Joffrey has a birthday bash.

    Some Thoughts: I supposed that Sansa would not appeal to a female audience; shows you what I know. Martin is a far shrewder judge of the zeitgeist than I am. When I checked out ASOIAF fanfics, which character had the most? Yup, Sansa. In fact, Sansa/Sandor Clegane is the favoured trope, called San/San. God in heaven. I think I need bleach for my brain.

    The Edward Bulwer-Lytton Memorial Award: ?The morning of King Joffrey?s name day dawned bright and windy, with the tail of the great comet visible through the high scuttling clouds.?

    Truer Words Were Never Spoken Dept: ?I should like to see that, Your Grace? [Sansa?s reaction to Joffrey?s telling her he?s challenged Rob to single combat.] and ?As loyal as a deer surrounded by wolves.?

    Where Have I Seen This Before? Dept: George, Duke of Clarence [supposedly drowned in a butt of malmsey wine]

    Fantasy Tropes: [link=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BodyguardCrush]Bodyguard Crush[/link]

    Le Mot injuste: ?...look at that upjumped oaf...? It?s ?jumped-up?.

    The Department of Silly Names: Jalabhar Xho, Lothor Brune

    Not thinking it out: Sansa believes Ser Arys is virtuous, because he actually *argued* before he hit her. That?s chivalry indeedy.

    What I liked: Sansa has figured out that the Lannisters are snakes

    What I didn?t (in particular): This goes on and on to very little point

    Criminal Record: a poisoning, a thrashing,

    POVs to date: 2

    Dimwittedly watches fiancee humiliated/Stupidly watches tourney while villains expose their innermost thoughts/Idiotically protests the prospective breaking of her engagement to an inbred psychotic/Moronically betrays her entire gene pool/Dazedly pleads for Dad after betraying him completely/Foolishly tells her flaming nutbar fiancee that her brother will give her his head/Oddly prefers a polite beating/

    Rating: 1/5
     
  24. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jun 2, 2007

    There is a point once you realize exactly who Ser Dontos is and who he works for.
     
  25. severian28

    severian28 Jedi Master star 5

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    Apr 1, 2004
    I supposed that Sansa would not appeal to a female audience; shows you what I know. Martin is a far shrewder judge of the zeitgeist than I am. When I checked out ASOIAF fanfics, which character had the most? Yup, Sansa. In fact, Sansa/Sandor Clegane is the favoured trope, called San/San. God in heaven. I think I need bleach for my brain.


    Its no wonder you dont like this story going about reading it in this manner lol. Sansa is a great, great character - not at all typical. Your right - Martin is a really astute student of popular, but what your missing with the fractured reading and basing your opinions on other peoples opinions and ASOIAF blogs is that hes trying to expose OUR zeitgeist by creating his own zeitgeist that mirrors it and the conflict resolution of this story , in my opinion , will be a societal and cultural reimagining or breakdown. Its a meta story about meta itself, to me anyways. Thats whats i find novel about it.