Amph ASOIAF: "A Clash of Kings" Chapter-by-Chapter: Chapter Thirty-Two: Sansa

Discussion in 'Archive: The Amphitheatre' started by Nevermind, Jun 14, 2011.

  1. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

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    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    Fiancé, not fiancée, unless you consider Joffrey a girl... :p
  2. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 14, 2001
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    Well, now that you mention it...[face_laugh]
  3. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

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    Dec 26, 2000
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    And I've never understood how so many people actually like Sansa. She's a complete moron! She's naive, idiotic, completely passive, does absolutely nothing to improve her situation... Even after all the time she's lived in King's Landing among the Lannisters and their lackeys, and knows how most knights really behave, she still naively believes in gallant knights in shining armour from the songs and fairy tales. I just wanted to grab her shoulders and yell "For heaven's sake, WAKE UP, YOU STUPID SILLY GIRL!!"

    Arya is much better. She's active, she watches, she listens, she learns. Doesn't always make the right decision, but at least she's doing something
  4. Sniper_Wolf Force Ghost

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    Nov 26, 2002
    star 4
    Sansa provides a perspective into the comings and goings of King's Landing besides Tyrion while Arya is making little contribution to the overall plot. At the end of A Storm of Swords and through A Feast for Crows Sansa finally grows up and becomes interesting. Her apprenticeship under Littlefinger is far more interesting than anything Arya has done, and the reader has another set-up for the "who will receive Winterfell" house of cards.
  5. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

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    Welp, she's a goner.
  6. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Jun 2, 2007
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    Sansa's chapters certainly aren't my favorite; there's even one in ASOS dedicated solely to Sansa deciding on what dress to wear to some formal occasion. But her perspective is necessary to the story, so we just have to deal with it.
  7. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

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    Chapter Three: Tyrion

    Summary: Tyrion takes on his duties as Hand of the King.

    Some Thoughts: The last two Hands of the King were poisoned and beheaded, and Tyrion?s father wants him dead. This should be a warning. But Tyrion?s never as smart as advertised.

    Truer Words Were Never Spoken Dept: ?Truly, sister, you were born to be a widow.? A trait she shares with Lysa Arryn.

    Where Have I Seen This Before? Dept: Miles Vorkosigan becomes an Imperial Auditor in ?Memory?

    Fantasy Tropes: The Augean Stables

    Improbability Dept.: Kevan Lannister seems the obvious choice as Hand.

    Bad dialogue: ?There has never been a boar so delicious. They cooked it with mushrooms and apples, and it tasted like triumph.?

    Le Mot injuste: smallclothes are *not* underwear

    It's So Good I have to repeat it: ?She slapped him? x three

    Not thinking it out: Don?t tell Cersei you know about the incest, moron. What does that gain you? And Varys: what?s the point of telling Tyrion you are an efficient spymaster? Tyrion thinks they speak the same language, but Tyrion?s an idiot. He should tell Varys he can kill Shae with his goodwill if he wants to answer his question sensibly.

    What I liked: Tyrion scouts out the fact that Cersei is running the place into the ground.

    What I didn?t (in particular): The wallpaper hanging.

    Criminal Record: One poisoning, one thrashing.

    POVs to date: 3

    Tyrion's character arc to date: Slaps nephew/Talks too much/Duels with crab forks/rhymes ?craven? with ?raven?/Confesses his sins to a breast-feeder and breast-feedee/steals goat/Acquires a hairy entourage/Loses half the hairy entourage in battle/Appointed Hand of inbred psychotic/Accepts the job instead of running for the hills/

    1/5
  8. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

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    Alternatively he's so smart that he knows he's too popular for Martin to kill him off until book seven if at all.

    Emmy award? SAFE.:p
  9. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    No mention of a classic Tyrion line? "I can see where Joffrey learned his courtesies," in reply to Cersei simply saying "You!"

    Or what about "...although it doesn't seem quite just that you should open your legs for one brother and not the other."?
  10. severian28 Force Ghost

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    Apr 1, 2004
    star 5
    He's as attracted to her as Jaime is and he wants to kill her too.

    The last two Hands of the King were poisoned and beheaded, and Tyrion?s father wants him dead. This should be a warning. But Tyrion?s never as smart as advertised


    He's the most intelligent character in the story.
  11. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

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    Wait, wait, wait... I haven't gotten to that part in the books yet (don't worry I don't mind being spoiled here)... but Tyrion is attracted to Cersei as well?

    Ok: I'm not sure if Martin's aware of this, but the subtext of all this says to to me, essentially, that Tywin or someone in his court is some sort of sexual predator. This incest stuff doesn't occur naturally (that is to say, Freud was wrong). The natural state -- the regular human evolved state -- is "people I knew well since I was a little kid are NOT attractive to me". Actually it's not just the evolved state of humans, but the clear majority of mammal species.

    For so many members of the Lannister family have this incest inclination indicates that there's some sort of common root problem there, if Martin knows his science.
  12. severian28 Force Ghost

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    Yes he is attracted to Cersei, and there isnt much imperical science to back either the nature or nurture argument in regards to the way we are sexually oriented. Even Kinsey wasnt going there with an official conclusion and his research was exhausting. However his opinion leaned towards environment and conditioning with regards to human sexual orientation and so does mine, and Tyrion - as youve pointed out and despite his privilege - grew up in a messed up environment.
  13. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

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    Yes he is attracted to Cersei, and there isnt much imperical science to back either the nature or nurture argument in regards to the way we are sexually oriented. Even Kinsey wasnt going there with an official conclusion and his research was exhausting. However his opinion leaned towards environment and conditioning with regards to human sexual orientation and so does mine, and Tyrion - as youve pointed out and despite his privilege - grew up in a messed up environment.

    I actually looked some of this stuff up a while back (I was writing a script for a video game with a character that slowly becomes a villain over the course of the story and investigated a number of recorded psychological conditions to create a messed up explanation of why she was how she was -- it was going to be hinted at but never fully explained since its pretty dark stuff):

    What I'm familiar with is something called the Westermark Effect, and as I understand it, there's actually quite a lot of emperical science to back that up. Not so much that they can track dopamine levels, etc., but just observing humans and animals across cultures.

    This is relatively recent stuff starting from around the 1970. And what the consensus is, is that the natural state of almost all mammal species is incest aversion. There's a couple where it's practiced, but basically a youth left to their own in that department will just naturally not look for mates within the family -- or rather in humans, anyone with whom they're regularly familiar with between the ages of 0-6. That's parents, siblings, even friends from that far back.

    However it's true that environment and conditioning is a factor. But in terms of incest, it's all negative conditioning that is not really incidental. Unless the close relative is someone that the person in question was not in contact with during those years (long-lost relative etc.), what's going on there, somewhere, is abuse. Often, mental conditioning on the order of a form of brainwashing. In Tyrion/Jamie/Cersei's case, at least one of them would probably have to have been abused at a young age in order to get the necessary ideas in the first place, and understand the need to keep it all such a secret.

    In other words, our taboos on the subject are BECAUSE of our evolution. They are a part of the "natural state", from quite a ways back in the chain. They are not because of repressive religions or unhealthy attitudes towards sex. That's homosexuality, which is an entirely different matter. Homosexuality appears naturally fairly often between willing individuals. A homosexual is not taught to be homosexual; it just happens that way. Incest, OTOH, does NOT appear very often where someone has not been coerced into it at some level.
  14. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 14, 2001
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    "learned his courtesies" is definitely minor league snark next to "You were born to be widow" which is major league.

    I don't think Tyrion is particularly attracted to Cersei unless there is something he's not telling us. He was trying to goad her, I thought. Since he needs her goodwill, a stupid move, and an example of his inability to master his emotions. Varys must be contemptuous.
  15. severian28 Force Ghost

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    Apr 1, 2004
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    You my fearless moderator need to finish reading the story lol. He wants to rape and kill her. He loves and hates her, which in my own experience boils down to the same thing.
  16. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

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    I'm well aware of his homicidal tendencies toward his own family; I'm not even saying they are unwarranted--I don't know why he killed his father yet, I suppose he had his reasons. If indeed Tywin *is* his father.
  17. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

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    star 6
    Chapter Four: Brandon II (One)

    Summary: Brandon transforms into a wolf.

    Some Thoughts: A Bran chapter! If I didn?t have to recap, this would be where I would start skimming. Very much the shortest chapter so far, and even so, it?s padded by Brandon?s attempts at howling and a lot of trivia (do we need to know the Walders? precise role in the Frey succession?)

    Where Have I Seen This Before? Dept: The Wolf Man

    Fantasy Tropes: Voluntary Shapeshifting

    Bad dialogue: ?Oooooooooooooooooooo, ahooooooooooooooooooo.??Oooooooo. Oo-oo-ooooooooooooo.? ?Ooo-ooo-oooooo. Ooo-ooo-ooooooooooooooooooo.? ?AAHOOOOOOO. OOOO-OOOO-OOOO.? These are direct quotes.

    It's So Good I have to repeat it: Everybody has a different explanation for (a) wolves? howling; and (b) the comet. We hear *all* of them.

    The Department of Silly Names: the Walders

    Unfortunate Mental Image Dept: Brandon II marking in wolf-mode

    What I liked: Shaggydog biting the Walders

    What I didn?t (in particular): Brandon?s stupid howling

    Criminal Record: one poisoning, one thrashing.

    POVs to date: 4

    Bran's character arc to date: watches execution of poor working-class slob/has career as a high-level voyeur truncated/gets flying lessons from mutated wildfowl/is bored by a superannuated peasant/watches execution of working class outlaws who just threatened his boyhood/Is carted around by a dim-wit semi-giant/Talks to his father?s ghost/Howls at the moon/

    Rating: 1/5


  18. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

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    This, the sex moans, and Hodor are why I can't stand the audiobooks.
  19. MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper

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    You are assuming he meant that, and didn't say it just to get a reaction. There is never any indication until he says it that he's at all attracted to Cersei, and none of his internal dialogue ever indicates such that I recall.
  20. severian28 Force Ghost

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    Apr 1, 2004
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    Given his alcoholism, his promiscuity, and most of all what he does to his father I'm gonna go ahead and assume that its a safe assumption lol. My read on Tyrion is that he has much less control of his emotions then we are initially led to believe in AGoT.
  21. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

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    Jul 8, 1998
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    I'd have to err on the side of it being just to get a reaction, though I haven't read the passage.

    Every indication has been he simply doesn't like Cersei, and Cersei doesn't like him. In fact, they hate one another.

    Frankly, had people been nicer to Tyrion in AGoT, you got to wonder why he wouldn't have turned on his family. His loyalty to them seems a bit... dumb.
  22. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

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    I rather think that under his bravado, he longs for an acceptance he won't get from Tywin or Cersei. That makes sense, what doesn't is that he won't accept that he won't get it. That *is* dumb, but human.
  23. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Jun 2, 2007
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    Tyrion is playing mind-games with Cersei. He knows full well she can't use the same tricks she used on Ned when he uncovered the incest, and she knows that he knows that. He's also using that knowledge of the incest as leverage over Cersei, a concept that Ned could never quite grasp.
  24. severian28 Force Ghost

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    that's exactly right i think, and a dumb but human character? sounds pretty realistic to me lolol - and confusing intelligence and wisdom, which Tyrion's detractor's seem to do to a man, is really dumb ( and human lol ).
  25. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

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    Tyrion is playing mind-games with Cersei. He knows full well she can't use the same tricks she used on Ned when he uncovered the incest, and she knows that he knows that. He's also using that knowledge of the incest as leverage over Cersei, a concept that Ned could never quite grasp.

    Right, that sounds more like Tyrion: he plays mind games with everyone, but softpedals it a bit on those who don't play them back. But he lays it on thick for those who would play them against him.

    As for longing for Tywin and Cersei's approval... yes, I guess that would have to be the case. It's too bad how better people can value, consciously or unconsciously, the opinions of lesser people.