Amph ASOIAF: "A Clash of Kings" Chapter-by-Chapter: Chapter Thirty-Two: Sansa

Discussion in 'Archive: The Amphitheatre' started by Nevermind, Jun 14, 2011.

  1. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2001
    star 6
    Chapter Twenty-Eight: Brandon II

    Summary: Jojen Reed is a seer or fey or some damn thing and tries to convince Brandon II he (that is, Brandon) is a shape-changer.

    Some Thoughts: Is this a Brandon chapter? It is! Does Hodor say ?Hodor?? He does! Does Brandon II angst-it-up about never being a knight? He does! Does he use the phrase ?a man grown?? Whoops! He doesn?t! He does, however, use the phrase ?a woman grown.? Any change-up in the stream of cliches is excruciatingly welcome. One of the worst things about the books is the constant repetition, which of course, is caused by the rotating POV. Oh well, only partially, I suppose. The other major problem is that Martin has pitched the ages too young, and started everyone off at once, so that Dany is wandering the East for what seems like forever, and Bran is stuck in neutral for an equal time. (They seem to have corrected this in the TV series, from what I hear. Any correction of this problem is a good thing.)

    For ye Fangirls: Meera

    Where Have I Seen This Before? Dept: The prophecy? Any fantasy you can name.

    She Blinded Me with Non-Science: The moving castle. This is a standard fantasy/sci-fi trope. But planets, islands or castles don?t move about randomly, and if they do, I?ll sue my physics teacher.

    Metaphors for Dummies: the chained flying wolf

    Speaking Forsoothly: ?Sometimes he tears my garb? (that?s clothes)

    What we learn: Almost as an aside, we are told Bolton?s illegitimate son seized the unfortunate Lady Hornwood and married her to get her lands.

    Not thinking it out: Assuming you won?t get ripped up pretty badly if you won?t die. (Meera thought so, too.)

    What I liked: Some advancement of the shape-changing plot after so many chapters of status quo.

    What I didn?t (in particular): Brandon II chapters are usually dull. This is no exception.

    Criminal Record: One poisoning, one thrashing, two murders, two pillages, one deflowering, a sack, one murder, 19 cases of incest, one attempted incest, one attempted dismemberment, 159 violations of the English language, one attempted mauling by direwolves,

    POVs to date: 10

    Bran's character arc to date: watches execution of poor working-class slob/has career as a high-level voyeur truncated/gets flying lessons from mutated wildfowl/is bored by a superannuated peasant/watches execution of working class outlaws who just threatened his boyhood/Is carted around by a dim-wit semi-giant/Talks to his father?s ghost/Howls at the moon/Dreams of a three-eyed crow blinding him and performing an avian lobotomy on him/Flirts with a frog-eater/Learns that he and his direwolf have identity problems/

    Rating: 2/5
  2. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2001
    star 6
    Chapter Twenty-Nine: Tyrion

    Summary: Tyrion turns his cousin Lancel Lannister, the sixteen-year-old who is currently sleeping with Cersei. As Tyrion puts it, Cersei loves her family. Except him.

    Some Thoughts: Tyrion is enjoying being the big cheese.

    For ye Fanboys: Boring sex scene. Boring details of Lancel?s and Cersei?s birth control.

    For ye Fangirls: Tyrion is in love.

    Fantasy Tropes: Butt Monkey

    The Privy Council: Minute descriptions of Tyrion?s toilet experiences. Because we all need to read that, right?

    Speaking Forsoothly: the garderobe (a medieval term for toilet)

    Bad dialogue: ?I heard he was taller.? Henny Youngman isn?t dead, alas.

    The Department of Silly Names: Lancel, short for Lancelot, I guess;

    Unfortunate Mental Image Dept: A boring sex scene involving Tyrion.

    Characterization: Tyrion still imagines that he?s smarter than Cersei, Littlefinger and/or Varys. He flatters himself.

    Not thinking it out: Tyrion?s tendency to fall in love with whores. This is pathetic, but not in a good way.

    What I liked: No Theon, but Lancel is nearly as bad.

    What I didn?t (in particular): Page 450, and the plot movement is minimal.

    Criminal Record: : One poisoning, one thrashing, two murders, two pillages, one deflowering, a sack, one murder, 19 cases of incest, one attempted incest, one attempted dismemberment, 159 violations of the English language, one attempted mauling by direwolves,

    POVs to date: 10

    Tyrion's character arc to date: Slaps nephew/Talks too much/Duels with crab forks/rhymes ?craven? with ?raven?/Confesses his sins to a breast-feeder and breast-feedee/steals goat/Acquires a hairy entourage/Loses half the hairy entourage in battle/Appointed Hand of inbred psychotic/Accepts the job instead of running for the hills/Recruits for the Night?s Watch/Swims with the sharks after smearing himself with fish guts/Inspects defective fireworks/Dances a jig with the evil queen/Falls in love with a prostitute with a heart of tin/

    Rating: 1/5
  3. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2001
    star 6
    Chapter Thirty (!) Arya

    Summary: Arya is given a gift which she squanders.

    Some Thoughts: This denouement of this chapter is so damn stupid, it would be a basic deal breaker if I were still voluntarily reading this drek. Sort of like Cersei v. Eddard, Mark 2.

    The Edward Bulwer-Lytton Memorial Award: ?Whatever names Harren the Black had meant to give his towers were long forgotten.? Maybe Harren the Black had better things to do than putz about naming towers, but this seems not to occur to anyone; particularly Martin, who names *everything.*

    For ye Fanboys: Gore and rapine.

    For ye Fangirls: The gift Arya is given.

    Truer Words Were Never Spoken Dept: ?How many monsters does Lord Tywin have?? He?s bred three of them, too.

    Where Have I Seen This Before? Dept: The Bloody Mummers are basically Robin Hood and His Merry Men, though subverted.

    Fantasy Tropes: Action Girl

    Improbability Dept.: Oh, come *on*. There?s no way in the western Anya wouldn?t choose Tywin, Gregor Clegane and Cersei, but the PLOT demands otherwise. So either forget this trope or do it right, George.

    Speaking Forsoothly: ?Pease for wits? which is medieval for ?oatmeal for brains?

    It's So Good I have to repeat it: ?Fear cuts deeper than swords?

    The Department of Silly Names: Ser Alyn Stackspear, Whitesmile Wat, Lord Vargo Hoat

    Not thinking it out: It?s always a good idea to kill a minor jerk instead of your main enemies. Not.

    What I liked: I was so enraged by this stupidity that very little registered.

    What I didn?t (in particular): Besides Arya?s stupid choices, the padding. Why the hell should we care about most of it?

    Criminal Record: One poisoning, one thrashing, three murders, two pillages, one deflowering, a sack, one murder, 19 cases of incest, one attempted incest, one attempted dismemberment, 159 violations of the English language, one attempted mauling by direwolves, one rape, one assassination,

    POVs to date: 10

    Arya's character arc to date: Is given razor-sharp dangerous sword/Is allowed to keep razor-sharp dangerous sword/Goes cat-catching so that she can help out with Bad Exposition/Uses razor-sharp sword to commit her first murder at age nine/Witnesses Dad?s decapitation/beats up thug until he soils himself/beats on a hissing psychopath/Meets a wolf while relieving herself/Risks life to save 3 psychopaths with a grudge against her/Practices worm-swallowing and beetle-eating/Urinates in public/Is genetically stupid/

    Rating: .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001/5

  4. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    So I've returned from the series after having dropped off a little bit ago.

    It's my first read-through, and I had a hard time getting through the middle of AGoT. Much of my interest slowly returned though. Ironically it was the Catlyn chapters which did it: Catelyn was vastly uninteresting at the Eyrie... in fact, she's still uninteresting, but she also happens to be at the center of all the action. And although not much time is spent on him, at this point of the story Robb IS the center of the action carrying over from the first novel. He's the guy actually doing stuff -- funny that he has no POV.

    The Jon chapters are now starting to plod, however. My interest in the Wall has waned a fair bit.

    Overall though I find the story gagues my interest much more than the first book, or does so at this point. Martin still overdoes certain things -- I really like his take on that everyone thinks the comet is THEIR comet, but he really didn't have to have EVERY faction comment on it... the point had already been made the third or fourth time. When you get to Theon thinking it's his comet, it's enough already.

    I am enjoying the Tyrion chapters more at this point, though. There's definately no attraction between him and Cersei as was inferred at one point in this thread. I find his interaction with Varys amusing but I do get the sense that Tyrion is written for not liking Varys at the outset for the sake of not liking him. Yes, Varys showed up at the inn unannounced: but so what? I kept getting the feeling that if it wasn't for Martin strongly suggesting that Tyrion was on the ball at all times here, that maybe Tyrion actually misreads some of what Varys intends early on. Meaning they're actually miscommunicating a good bit of the time.

    I like Stannis. That is, I like his character, not that I'd want to meet the man in RL. It was a nice touch Martin gives in the Davos chapter where Stannis emerges from the fire with his sword, a serious man at a serious event, only for his glove to catch fire and he has to put it out awkwardly. Frank Grimes indeed. This is the sort of guy teenagers would LOVE to play pranks on and toilet-paper Dragonstone.
  5. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2001
    star 6
    I tried something with the fifth book, which worked very well: I read the Tyrion chapters in sequence. It's a lot more tolerable.
  6. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    I don't know whether Martin's writing better at this point or if I'm just recognizing it less.

    Although if Martin bases Jon and Arya's connection on ONE more 'hair muss-up' I'm gonna lose it. That has become an really annoying thing: EVERY TIME this guy remembers his sister there's an obligatory mention of messing up her hair.

    You know, if I had written the series, I'd have had Arya missing her brother but thinking "but man, I really hated it when he grabbed me by the head like that... always thought it was kinda... weird... guy has issues."

    Seriously though, I wish Martin realized how mentioning something two times is significant enough to be noticed. Surely he can expand on fond memories rather than just re-playing the same note time after time?

    That said though, the plot is moving more so I'm enjoying that, as mentioned. Before a Jon chapter would come along and I'd be like "ok, here we go"... it was the Catelyn chapters I hated. Now I can't stand what Jon's doing, and with Catelyn I look forward to things because she's actually hanging around when important stuff goes down. My eyes glaze over when she starts remembering anything though. At least her memory of her, Lysa and Littlefinger in the godswood might have been interesting because maybe Martin was laying out Catelyn was remembering something that was the seed in causing half the pain and anguish in the entire series with a shrug of her shoulders (when some men get rebuffed, they drown their sorrows. When Littlefinger gets rebuffed, he schemes to drown an entire continent. In blood). Which would have been ironic.

    But I'm not sure that's really what Martin meant to convey. And almost everything else she remembers or cares about is boring. I don't care about Blackfish, or Edmure, or her dying dad. And what Arya and Sansa are actually going through is more interesting than reading about her worrying what they're going through.
  7. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2001
    star 6
    Nearly every review of "Dragons" on the internet says that the first three books were well written, but it and "Crows" wasn't. Au contraire, I didn't think "Dragons" was any worse than the trilogy, it was just that it was finally occurring to the audience that the plot was going around in circles. I mean, who gives a damn for sigils? Descriptions of feasts? Or clothes? Or jewellery?

    The POV is the real problem. Just tell the damn story, George. But George appears not really interested in the story as much as world building. Which suggests role-playing fantasy video games would be his natural habitat.

    In the next chapter, we get Catelyn, Stannis and Renly, plus wallpaper handing, Awesome Scenitis, and POV Plodding Plot Problems (aka Fanfiction Without Plot)
  8. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2001
    star 6
    Chapter Thirty-One: Catelyn

    Summary: Catelyn tries to convince Stannis and Renly to ally together to attack the Lannisters.

    Some Thoughts: This is a time-waster, given the personalities involved, but Martin wants to write about Stannis v. Renly

    Wallpaper Hanging: Catelyn thinks to herself that she should be elsewhere, which is true; but doesn?t say why she isn?t. (She isn?t because of the POV). Renly has no right whatsoever to the throne, and primogeniture seems to be the standard trope in the area, so he justifies his stupidity at length, when he should ally himself with Stannis now and just bump him off later (I?m using the prevailing morality here). And if the best fitted should rule, why do they need kings at all?

    However, in medieval times, both England and Scotland once practiced tanistry, wherein a king is chosen from a class of eligible people---usually a family, or two related ones. The reasons for this were practical---you needed a reliable war leader when the Danes were invading, as they frequently were. An example was Alfred the Great?he was the youngest of four sons. The elder three all reigned in turns, and the third one left two small sons when he died. But Alfred became King, because he was an adult, basically. But the Martinverse does not appear to practice tanistry.


    The Edward Bulwer-Lytton Memorial Award: ?The meeting place was a grassy sward dotted with pale grey mushrooms and the raw stumps of felled trees.?

    For Ye Fanboys: The minute descriptions of Stannis? and Renley?s banners.

    For Ye Fangirls: The minute descriptions of Stannis? jewellery, Renley?s jewellery and clothing, and their crowns. Martin also finds this fascinating, God help us. So we are going to hear about it, even if we don?t.

    Where Have I Seen This Before: JFK and Nixon; Richard III & George of Clarence

    Fantasy Tropes: Cain and Abel

    Is This a Fantasy Novel or a debased version of Norse Mythology?: the acutely boring story of the first Storm King.

    Speaking Forsoothly: ?southron? was used in the USA during the civil war period. It means ?southern?. So why not just use ?southern?, or is that too easy? ?Happenstance? and ?purblind? are the same sort of thing.

    Bad Dialogue: (Diminuendo Division) ?Old men deny it with their death rattle, and unborn children deny it in their mother?s wombs. They deny it in Dorne, and they deny it on the Wall. No one wants you as their King. Sorry.?

    Le mot injuste: ?It was Eddard Stark who broke the siege.? His *wife* says this. Who talks like this?

    As You Know, Captain: ?In your bed she is like to die that way.? Yes, Stannis, *tell* him he?s gay.

    It's So Good I have to repeat it: ?Winter is coming.?

    The Department of Silly Names: Beesbury, Shermer, Footly

    Metaphors for Dummies: Eat the Peach

    What We Learn: The Baratheons are just as stupid as the Greyjoys.

    Not Thinking It Out: See above

    That damned POV: Renly refuses to let Catelyn go to satisfy it.

    What I Liked: Not much

    What I Didn?t: This is fanfiction?world building sans plot

    Criminal Record: One poisoning, one thrashing, three murders, two pillages, one deflowering, a sack, one murder, 19 cases of incest, one attempted incest, one attempted dismemberment, 159 violations of the English language, one attempted mauling by direwolves, one rape, one assassination, one taunting

    Catelyn?s Character Arc: Complains about husband's bastard/Complains about husband's bastard/Foils assassination attempt on her son/Is told the assassin's name by her ex-boyfriend and an eunuch/Arrests Tyrion for attempted murder, bad puns and trying to steal her hotel room/Climbs a mountain in the dark with bastard/Watches younger sister behave in an even stupider way that her own/Decides to abandon her younger sons at Winterfall/Makes a deal with a superannuated weasel/Sits around watching a battle because Martin needs a POV/Remembers prepubescent sex scene/Annoys the hell out of her son, her brother, her uncle and the surrounding host/Visits Renly because Martin needs a POV/Nags the dumbass Brothers Baratheon

    Rati
  9. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2001
    star 6
    Sidebar:

    Season Two photos

    Stannis looks geeky and too old.

    Renley and Balon are not quite right.

    The rest are fairly close.

    I'm willing to bet this makes better TV than it does a book, especially as they have adjusted the ages properly.
  10. Merlin_Ambrosius69 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 5
    I haven't posted in this thread for a while, and do not intend to return longer than the discussion about the new images lasts.

    I think everyone looks pretty good. Stannis is almost just as I've imagined him, except that in my mind he's a bit more grizzled and unkempt. I don't know if Martin describes him with stubble and scruffy hair, but that's the picture I have in my head, so this rather well-combed and button-down (read: "nerdy") look does not quite live up to my personal image. However, physiologically, I mean his long face and general features, the actor is spot-on.

    The Red Woman is a bit muted in hue, but that's a problem (IMO) with the whole series, in which they've taken a very vibrant and colorful literary world and grayed, muted and muddied it for the show.

    Brienne, my favorite character in the books (not a majority opinion, I realize) is fairly well brought to life, though she is not as broad-shouldered as I would have hoped, nor as "ugly", and her hair ought to be shoulder-length as opposed to the crop job she gets here. But that's nitpicking and I'm happy as hell to see her finally realized on film.
  11. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Well it's all in the acting, I think. But...

    I do agree with the look of Stannis. I was sold more on many of the drawings I've seen, like the one with him thrusting a dagger into a table while surrounded by Generals, or others -- generally with him having a bald scalp SURROUNDED by a ring of hair, plus a very short and trim beard. This guy replaces that with a SERIOUS widow's peak, which I don't really like.

    I think Renly, though, looks just fine.

    I thought they were actually going to wind up making Brienne MORE beautiful than this, so I'm pleased. You know, I thought they'd try to make her 'ugly' but would end up not being able to go through with it and just wind up making her 'uglier by comparison'. But no, when I saw that pic I was like 'yeah, pretty ugly'.

    Baelon? Eeeh, yeah -- he doesn't look as stern as I would imagine. I hope the show plays up that he's short-sighted too, because his decision to attack the North makes no sense other than to just get back at the Starks ("Casterly Rock is to hard to defend"... from WHO? Who's going to attack you there? Plus they've got cash up the wazoo.... dumb, dumb, dumb).

    I think the best match for character/actor remains Robb Stark. Arya's very close, though.

    Peter Dinklage puts on a great performance, but other than the fact that he's a dwarf and has blond hair, his description doesn't quite match the books. He's supposed to have mismatched eyes, and by this point is sporting a beard...


    PS: I'm mid-way through COK. NVM, you are correct about these Theon chapters. They go on much too long about a character I don't care about, because he's a jerk with no redeeming qualities other than the fact there are even BIGGER jerks in the book (but not many). And they introduce characters that I also don't care about. The Greyjoys could have been made much more interesting but I'm just coming away thinking there's no complexity or rewarding features about any of these people, so what's the point? So far all I see is that Theon's a jerk, his father's a jerk, Asha is a jerk, and he's got an uncle who is a religious jerk. So why couldn't I have been told that they're attacking Winterfell the same way Stannis's move against Renly was first revealed through Catlyn? I mean, we're given a lot less information on what's going on in camp Stannis, and almost NONE in what's going on in camp Renly or even camp (Robb) Stark, and they all seem like way more interesting places to be then the Iron Islands or Winterfell, where stupid things happen in the former, and nothing happens in the latter.

    Things happen with Arya, but most of it is just the same thing over and over. She could have used some condensing. Bran could have used WAY more condensing.

    Not much happens with Dany, but it's enough to justify the amount of chapters she's given. In fact, she could have been given one extra, because she's at least going new places and doing new things.

    The Tyrion chapters remain the highlight. He's given the most, I think, But what's going on justifies the amount.


    So at this point I'd say that the Theon chapters should have been eliminated almost completely. Bran should have been cut WAY down. Arya should have gotten at least one less chapter than she was given, possibly two. Dany should have gotten maybe one extra chapter. Davos should have gotten a bunch more chapters. And yes, because she's around places where a lot of major events are happening, Catelyn should have been given one or two more chapters.

    Martin seems to be working on the premise that he has to carry on all the POVs from the previous book. I don't see why that's the case. I personally don't have a problem with a rotating POV, it's just that it keeps coming back to people who are removed from the main action and decision-making. And that's a great device to emphasize how one side is in the dark about the other, but it also means I'm deprived of interesting places. I WANT to know what's going on in Dragonstone, but Martin only gives me rare glimpses. I WANT to know what's going on with Renly, but Martin gives me even less. I was inter
  12. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2001
    star 6
    And that's caused by the POV, and could be cured by getting rid of it.

    The pictures:

    Jon--Jon has a long face and grey eyes and this dude has a round face and black ones. Otherwise, pretty good.

    Ayra--Very good.

    Daenerys--Bad wig and a costume designer's idea of organic garb. Otherwise good enough.

    Rob--Very good.
  13. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2001
    star 6
    Sansa--I have no interest in this character at all. Otherwise, good enough.

    Theon--'the effete sneak' in style. Good.

    Stannis and Melisandre--Wow, Stannis looks like Richard Nixon there. That's good. But he also looks older than Robert, his older brother. And rather too blah and a bit weak-looking. That's bad. Stannis is strong and angry, casting director! Melisandre is toned down a good bit. That's good, because what works on the page or in the mind's eye won't work on the screen. And it didn't work on the page, IMO.

    Tyrion--Peter Dinklage is a bit old, and has a bad dye job. But you need a good actor, with charisma, so the choice is pretty small. The mismatched eyes are probably Too Much. I'm also guessing they leave out the nose business, too, and good for them. Martin makes him such a Butt Monkey, it's no longer believable. The eye will accept so much and no more.

  14. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2001
    star 6
    Joffrey--very girly, which is right for the character, I suppose. He's one character they didn't age much, so that Sansa (who's younger) looks older.

    Renly--Stannis looks like his grandfather, not his brother. And he's too small.

    Brandon II and Hodor--Brandon is okay; Hodor is supposed to be fairly young, so the white hair surprised me. Not that I care.

    Brienne--lacks the buck teeth, but pretty good.
  15. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2001
    star 6
    Daenerys--still has the bad wig

    Cersei--has a good wig

    Davos and Balon--Switch these two actors, and you've got it.

    Catelyn--I don't care re: Catelyn
  16. The Great No One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2005
    star 8
    yea... i think i agree, definitely switch balon and davos and they would look FAR more accurate.
  17. Nevermind Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2001
    star 6
    Chapter Thirty-Two: Sansa

    Summary: Joffrey behaves badly. Tyrion disciplines him. Sansa is Sansa.

    Some Thoughts: I couldn?t bring myself to read this chapter?Sansa being Sansa?for the longest time. There is exactly one tiny nugget of new information, which is that Rob has defeated the Lannisters in battle again, encased in a lot of violence, considerable sadism, some nudity, and a lot of posturing of various types.

    For Ye Fanboys: Toplessness, though it?s of a twelve-year-old, so I?m not sure what we?d see.

    For Ye Fangirls: The Hound?s reaction to Joffrey?s behavior.

    Where Have I Seen This Before: Over the top behavior of this type is a fanfiction trope in general.

    Fantasy Tropes: A rescue of a damsel in distress by our hero, or anti-hero, as it were.

    Speaking Forsoothly: ?You have a right to know why Joffrey was so wroth.? That?s angry.

    Le mot injuste: ?Boros, make her naked.? Try 'strip her naked'.

    Purple Prose: ?Horror coiled cold hands around Sansa?s throat.?

    The Department of Silly Names: Rubert Brax, Lymond Vikary, Lord Crakehall, Lord Jast

    What I Liked: Sansa has learned some discretion

    What I Didn?t: Everything else

    Criminal Record: One poisoning, one thrashing, four murders, two pillages, one deflowering, a sack, one murder, 19 cases of incest, one attempted incest, one attempted dismemberment, 159 violations of the English language, one attempted mauling by direwolves, one rape, one assassination, one taunting, one beating of a child,

    Character Arc: Sansa?s character arc to date: Dimwittedly watches fiancee humiliated/Stupidly watches tourney while villains expose their innermost thoughts/Idiotically protests the prospective breaking of her engagement to an inbred psychotic/Moronically betrays her entire gene pool/Dazedly pleads for Dad after betraying him completely/Foolishly tells her flaming nutbar fiancee that her brother will give her his head/Oddly prefers a polite beating/Dopily equates Ser Dontos with some twee twit named Florian/Stupidly goes back to her rooms after Joffrey has her beaten

    Rating: .000001/5