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Amph ASOIAF: "A Clash of Kings" Chapter-by-Chapter: Chapter Thirty-Two: Sansa

Discussion in 'Archive: The Amphitheatre' started by Nevermind, Jun 14, 2011.

  1. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2001
    Hey, Dooku, pax. [face_peace]

    I was referring to AGOT there (you know, the book being discussed in this thread) not your work, and using it as a template of what not to do. As you said, all I've seen is the info sheet on your story. I think you might well have a tough time with the subject you've chosen, but as noted above, if you have sufficient s/i, nothing is impossible.
     
  2. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Yes, because popular among one demographic in the first world = universal popularity, amirite? Here's a thought - try to figure out an objective reason for why Twilight should be considered inferior literature. If a bunch of 14 year old girls think it's the best book ever, what makes them "wrong"?

    I'd have more faith in the validity of that statement if it hadn't been claimed by absolutely everyone, ever.
    [image=http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/sheeple.png]

    We've all gotten into a bad habit of assuming our tastes > your tastes; really it's the majority's taste >= your taste, seeing as the majority's taste dictates the course of culture.
     
  3. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2001
    I intend to find out. [face_laugh]

    Actually the reviews I've read of it tend to be more positive than not.
     
  4. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2001
    From Stephanie Meyer's Wiki entry:

    "Meyer mentions having several other book ideas on file, including a ghost story titled Summer House and a novel involving time travel,[81] as well as another about mermaids.[82] Her mermaids will be man eaters, so the humans fish for them. This will be set in a fantasy world and the book will have a map in the front."

    Hmmmm....[face_laugh]...If it has a map in front, then it must be fantasy.

    Chapter Eight: Tyrion

    Summary: This chapter has little or no action.

    Some Thoughts: The main purpose here is to establish Tyrion as a good guy, I thought.

    For ye Fanboys: You don't love me as much as my good-looking brother, but I'm a better person.

    Where Have I Seen This Before? Dept: The works of Francis Ford Coppola.

    Grammatical Errors: 1

    Speaking Forsoothly: "I cannot abide the wailing of women." "Breaking fast with the Queen." Etc.

    Bad dialogue: "You are a perverse little imp, aren't you?"

    Purple Prose: "His soot-dark armour seemed to block out the sun."

    As You Know, Captain: "The boy is a long time dying." Etc.

    It's So Good I have to repeat it: N/A

    The Department of Silly Names: Sandor Clegane

    Characterization: Jaime is incestuous, treasonous, and a child murderer (in intent), but treated his deformed brother reasonably well. Around here, that's a complex personality.

    What we learn: Tyrion doesn't know (apparently) the truth.

    Not thinking it out: How likely is that, if he's as intelligent as presented?

    Criminal Record: 2 murders, 1 execution, incest, treason, attempted murder of a child.

    POVs to date: 7

    Tyrion's character arc to date: Slapping nephew/

    Rating: 2/5
     
  5. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jun 2, 2007
    Jaime is one of the more complex characters in the series. But you have to read further to find that out.
     
  6. Penguinator

    Penguinator RPF Modinator and Batmanager star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005
    I think Zaz pointed out that he's read AGOT before - I'm assuming he's read a fair amount of the series, too.

    I have to say, this (being the thread) is a good read for a laugh, even if I do disagree with your criticisms of Martin's writing. I find his style a bit inconsistent, but then I'm not really reading the books for much else other than to see what the big deal is. On the plus side, I am enjoying them for the most part.
     
  7. Qui-Gon_Reborn

    Qui-Gon_Reborn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Dec 11, 2008
    I find myself disagreeing with you on some points, Zaz, but after finishing A Clash of Kings, your criticisms of Martin's prose are painfully relevant. As I just mentioned over in the SFF books/comics forum, putting randomwords together to make your sentences sound more interesting, using prose of nigh disgusting purpleness, and peppering a paragraph with tired metaphors is as troublesome as an early winter. :p Martin is guilty of all of that, and he's guilty of much more. I certainly don't know the man, but from my assessments of his blog entries and such, he seems to be a bit full of himself. And you can see this in his writing. These books don't have to be nine hundred pages long. There's so much in them that's just unnecessary, that just doesn't need to be there, that takes away from what is otherwise a solid story with fantastic characters. I'm talking useless monologues, endless description, inane dialogue, and detracting sub-plots, so much exposition and narration that simply does not belong. Martin suffers from such a severe case of Golden Word Syndrome that he seems unable to self-edit. And it's a shame, really.

    Those last two sentences cracked me up. [face_laugh]
     
  8. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 14, 2001
    I was once a member of a group that did parody versions of the New Jedi Order Books in fanfic, which was a lot of fun, except for the unfortunate fact that you had to read the damn books to parody them. Same problem here. I will say that Martin is better than the NJO, though I may retract that yet. Close attention to the book is harder than I thought it would be--you see a lot more dross than I remember from the first time that I read it.

    Nobody has to agree with me, nor do I expect it. And I'm happy to discuss it. I don't answer the True Believers because their posts are usually not-so-subtle attempts to derail the thread by swarming and flaming. Ain't got the time. But disagreement sans agenda is most welcome.

    Yeah, I'm getting the feeling from that Stephanie Meyer website that the "Twilight* series will be a rare treat. Cannibalistic mermaids. Can't wait. [face_laugh]

    Chapter Nine: Jon

    Summary: Jon doesn't avoid Catelyn entirely. Ye mistake.

    Some Thoughts: Not much action here, either.

    For ye Fanboys: Ye wicked stepmother.

    Where Have I Seen This Before? Dept: The works of the Brothers Grimm.

    Grammatical Errors: 2

    Speaking Forsoothly: "I need none of your absolution, bastard."

    Bad dialogue: "I had Mikken make this special."

    Purple Prose: "His eyes were sunken deep into black pits."

    As You Know, Captain: 0

    It's So Good I have to repeat it: "Lady Stark was beside his bed. She had been there, day and night, close on a fortnight. Not for a moment had she left Bran's side...Not once did she leave the room." (This is in the space of *one* paragraph.) Jon messes Arya's hair yet *again.* He seems to have a mania for it.

    The Department of Silly Names: Needle

    Characterization: The point here, I suppose, is that Catelyn is distraught, not that she likes Jon when she isn't.

    What we learn: Bran's in a bad way; the household is breaking up.

    Not thinking it out: Giving a razor-sharp weapon to a nine-year-old is always a good plan.

    Criminal Record: 2 murders, 1 execution, incest, treason, attempted murder of a child child endangerment by proxy.

    POVs to date: 7

    Jon's character arc to date: Gets drunk/Has shindy with his stepmother/

    Rating: 1/5
     
  9. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP

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    Jul 13, 2008
    Man, I wish the Twilight books had had the cannibalistic mermaids. Would've made the movies that much more interesting.

    You forgot to add "Child endangerment by proxy" for this chapter.
     
  10. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 14, 2001
    Good point. I added it.

    As soon as I get "Twilight", I'll start a thread for it, too.
     
  11. MarcusP2

    MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 2004
    Martin's tendency to longwindness has reached its zenith, I hope, with AFFC (which is 900 pages long and only half a book, with very little plot development at all) and ADWD, which is as long as SoS, despite the fact it was meant to be the second half of AFFC..

    To me, the plot and characters make up for it, I think the world is interesting. Your tipping point is obviously different to mine. :p
     
  12. harpua

    harpua Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    It's not only 14 year old girls... there's also a bored housewife / overly emotional twenty-something demographic. :p It is all subjective, I agree. Zaz / NM (why did you switch user IDs anyway ? :p ) You can, of course, go about thinking something is crap (and it may be... where Twilight is concerned, I think it is crap), but I don't see the point in reading something you have already "pre-deemed" as crap, in order to justify why you think it's crap... seems like an awful waste of time.

    I've actually tried reading Twilight... when I was a buyer for a local bookstore, I was challenged to read it... and didn't make it all the way through the first book - just wasn't my thing. If you feel that you must read a book you already consider crap, with the intention of dedicating an entire thread to explaining why it is crap, again... your thing, but I have to ask why - do you not have anything better to do with your time? :p

    Here's a hilarious example of a Twilight fan reacting to the Breaking Dawn trailer.
    [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vqmILSKfew] WTF?[/link] (contains some colorful language)
     
  13. The Great No One

    The Great No One Jedi Grand Master star 8

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    Jun 4, 2005
    good lord... that's ridiculous harps. i don't... even pretend to understand people like that at all.
     
  14. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 14, 2001
    The plot doesn't move very fast at times even at this point, mainly because of the repetition caused by the rotating POVs.

    Chapter Nine: Daenerys

    Summary: Danys marries into the Horde.

    Some Thoughts: The Dany chapters are nearly always the most floridly overwritten.

    For ye Fanboys: Quivering adolescent is deflowered by greasy barbarian thong-wearer; an orgy with leather and doggie-style sex takes place at their reception.

    Where Have I Seen This Before? Dept: The 'fermented mare's milk' bit is a dead giveaway as to who we are dealing with here. It's the Huns, son. If you know the story about the death of Attila, you have a clue as to what else is coming, too.

    Grammatical Errors: The adverbs *fly*

    Speaking Forsoothly: "Guard your tongue, Mormont, or I'll have it out. I am no lesser man, I am the rightful Lord of the Seven Kingdoms. The dragon does not beg." He does pimp, however.

    Bad dialogue: "I piss on Dothraki omens."

    Purple Prose: "She was as gray as a winter sea, with a mane like silver smoke." Her bro's lilac eyes get yet another mention as well. The greasy barbarian is 'drinking in her body with his eyes.' Quite a trick, that. Maybe he has an ocular straw.

    Le Mot injuste: "Steel bit into flesh just above the Dothraki's waist, opening him from backbone to belly button, spilling his entails in the dust." Belly button? Sounds absurd in this context. Try navel.

    As You Know, Captain: "The *khal* has promised you a crown, and you shall have it."

    It's So Good I have to repeat it: "I am the blood of the dragon" many, many, many times.

    The Department of Silly Names: Haggo, Qotho, and (my fave) Cohollo.

    Characterization: Viserys is a complete piece of unsubtle cardboard.

    What we learn: The bridal habits of the horde.

    Not thinking it out: You're outnumbered, Viserys. Complaining will be tricky.

    Criminal Record: 2 murders, 1 execution, incest, treason, attempted murder of a child child endangerment by proxy, pimping, pedophilia, indecent exposure, 12 knifing deaths at a wedding reception;

    POVs to date: 7

    Daenerys' character arc to date: tit-twist by bro/deflowered by Conan the Barbarian/

    Rating: 1/5
     
  15. MarcusP2

    MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Jul 10, 2004
    If you know the story about the death of Attila, you have a clue as to what else is coming, too.
    ...not really.
     
  16. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 14, 2001
    ...Eventually.
     
  17. Rox

    Rox Administrator Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 24, 2000
    I just started reading this book today and figured I would pop in to see what others have to say. Boy Nevermind you really are full of yourself. Does this thread really serve as anything else but a pedestal for you to trash the book over and over again?
     
  18. Point Given

    Point Given Mod of Literature and Community star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2006
    Wrong.
     
  19. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 14, 2001
    We'll see.
     
  20. MarcusP2

    MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Jul 10, 2004
    Well, how far did you read and what parallels are you drawing? If you mean 'he died before his ultimate conquest' that's not really that surprising. If you mean to draw more direct parallels between the manner of his death and Attila's, I don't think that's valid.
     
  21. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    Even if you don't like Dany's chapters right now, Nevermind (and I wasn't sold on them initially either), the payoff at the end of the book is well worth it, as tonight's episode showed.
     
  22. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 14, 2001
    It's not impossible.



     
  23. Mastadge

    Mastadge Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 4, 1999
    I also had trouble getting into Dany's arc. It gets better.
     
  24. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I. Ramza, you're going a bit far there. I hope you don't mean all that and only said so because you were pushed to it.

    II. QGR, whenever I hear somebody complaining about purple prose, I have to shake my head. For centuries, the adjectives ornate, baroque, and prolix would not have been considered pejoratives. It's only in the 20th century that we've developed a preference for plain language, and that's a literary trend unlike any other. Your use of "purple prose" as a criticism in this context does nothing but wave the standard of modernism. Well, that's nice and all but showing your allegiance just means you're partial. Purple prose, as a criticism, refers to prose that's excessively flowery outside its appropriate context. Elsewise, classical epic, Oriental literature, and much Western literature (in certain genres) would be subject to such criticisms. The Grand Style has its uses, just as the middle and low have their own; context.

    I don't think it'd be appropriate for a character in a medieval mindset to adopt plainspoken modern language and sentiments. Just as the childrens' POVs have their own peculiarities, so do the adults educated in a certain fashion. It is not a valid criticism.

    III. As far as Dany goes, her chapters are the most interesting. So there.
     
  25. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP

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    Jul 13, 2008
    No, I mean absolutely everything I say at all times. If there's one thing I never do, it's exaggerate my stance to the point of trolling.

    Never.

    Also, with regards to this whole Dothraki = Huns thing... I strongly disagree. As Wocky notes below this post, when I read the books my first thought was definitely the monguls, with Drogo serving as a sort of Ghengis Khan. Hell, it's practically the same title: Khal, Khan...