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Amph ASOIAF: "A Clash of Kings" Chapter-by-Chapter: Chapter Thirty-Two: Sansa

Discussion in 'Archive: The Amphitheatre' started by Nevermind, Jun 14, 2011.

  1. Qui-Gon_Reborn

    Qui-Gon_Reborn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 11, 2008
    What, you mean I have to wait? Haven't you read any of my criticisms of Martin's plodding prose? I am not a patient person! :p
     
  2. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2001
    Chapter Twelve: Catelyn

    Summary: There is an assassination attempt on Brandon Stark II, and Catelyn does the math.

    Some Thoughts: Eddard just goes off and leaves his stricken son and his wife, which is frankly pretty rank behaviour.

    For ye Fanboys: Wolf kill.

    Where Have I Seen This Before? Dept: N/A

    Grammatical Errors: 3

    Speaking Forsoothly: "Leave us now" which is Martinese for "Get out."

    Bad dialogue: "Even the Kingslayer would flinch at the murder of an innocent child." But not of his king, apparently.

    Purple Prose: "...something as stern and hard as the north." And it's cold, too.

    Le Mot injuste: N/A

    As You Know, Captain: Catelyn's rant does duty for the standard Bad Exposition.

    It's So Good I have to repeat it: Rob's cheeks are red from the cold, because it's cold, you know.

    The Department of Silly Names: Nothing this time.

    Characterization: Catelyn is stronger than Eddard, but nearly as dumb. Going herself is a complete tip-off. Also: no need to tell Theon anything.

    What we learn: The Lannisters are idiots, and the Starks are fools.

    Not thinking it out: This is an important assassination, for obvious reasons, and the Lannisters hand it over to a rank simpleton? Give him money and a tell-tale blade? And wouldn't they move the kid first thing in case of fire, so what's the point?

    Criminal Record: 2 murders, 1 execution, incest, treason, two attempted murders of a child, child endangerment by proxy, pimping, pedophilia, indecent exposure, 12 knifing deaths at a wedding reception, 2 child murders, one wolf kill.

    POVs to date: 7

    Catelyn's character arc to date: Complains about husband's bastard/Complains about husband's bastard/Foils assassination attempt on her son/

    Rating: 3/5
     
  3. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    As you read on, you will discover that the Lannisters didn't send the assassin after Bran. Joffrey overheard either Jaime or Robert (can't remember who) saying "It would be a mercy for the boy to die." Joffrey got the idea to kill off Bran, without knowing the reason why Bran was injured in the first place. Joffrey pilfered a blade and hired a sellsword to attack Bran. The fact that the blade belonged to Tyrion/Littlefinger is just a coincidence.

    So the bungled assassination attempt was due to Joffrey being so overeager to do what his elders apparently wanted.
     
  4. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2001
    Oh, I see. It's arranged by a twelve-year-old.

    :rolleyes:
     
  5. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    o_O

    QGR: I suspect that the implication was far the opposite: apparently nitpicking and superficial parallels inaccurately drawn are the mark of the truly discerning reader.

    Also, superfluity is a far more elegant way of putting it. Avoid the -ness whenever possible.
     
  6. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    Many of the large events of the coming books are arranged by said twelve-year-old. In fact, it is Joffrey's bloodlust that kicks off the whole plots of the other books.
     
  7. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    What? Freaking spoilers, man!

    Not to mention that twist... kind of sucks.
     
  8. The Great No One

    The Great No One Jedi Grand Master star 8

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2005
    seriously... he went because of curiosity. pretty much specifically said.
     
  9. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I was referring to the use of "must of" in lieu of "must've," which apparently must be the mark of an inferior writer. Or something?
     
  10. MarcusP2

    MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 2004
    Are you suggesting that the crown prince couldn't give some dodgy hanger-on a bag of gold to kill someone? It's not exactly a sophisticated plot.

    What stretches credibility is that nobody in the King's party heard of it.
     
  11. harpua

    harpua Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Being that Zaz is noting grammatical errors, it's pretty hilarious. :p
     
  12. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2001
    Chapter Thirteen: Sansa

    Summary: Joffrey twirls his (imaginary) Snidely Whiplash mustache.

    Some Thoughts: Yet another POV, bringing the total to eight (anticipating, perhaps, the upcoming reduction). It's about four too many. Just as you get interested in a plot-line, it switches to another one. Once you get back to the one you were interested in, you've forgotten why you were interested. Another problem is that Martin does not play fair. This episode is ostensibly seen from Sansa's POV, but it's seen from Arya's anyway.

    For ye Fangirls: Sansa is portrayed as extremely superficial, unimaginative, snobby, and conventional; every cliche elder sister in chickflickdom encapsulated. Characterization is represented by lots and lots of italics.

    Where Have I Seen This Before? Dept: "War and Peace", only there it's done well.

    Grammatical Errors: 1

    Speaking Forsoothly: "By his extreme youth, he can only be a prancing jackanapes, and so I name him." Martinese for "He's an idiot."

    Bad dialogue: "While we were crossing the Neck, I counted thirty-six flowers I never saw before, and Mycah showed me a lizard-lion." Thirty-six? Is she sure? Maybe it was thirty-seven, or forty-two...

    Purple Prose: "...branches dripping with curtains of pale fungus."

    Le Mot injuste: "...in armour so fine and gorgeous." Gorgeous?

    As You Know, Captain: The introductions of the Kingsguard.

    It's So Good I have to repeat it: Arya has low tastes.

    The Department of Silly Names: Ser Ilyn Payne, Ser Morgil.

    Characterization: Joffrey is just another cardboard cut-out with a little sign above his head that flashes on and off saying: "Cowardly Effete Spoilt Brat Villain." There's not a bit of difference between him and Viserys; and there's not the slightest complexity in either of them.

    What we learn: Arya wants to be a knight.

    Not thinking it out: An eleven-year-old says to a young man: "By your extreme youth..." He wouldn't seem young to her.

    Criminal Record: 2 murders, 1 execution, incest, treason, two attempted murders of a child, child endangerment by proxy, pimping, pedophilia, indecent exposure, 12 knifing deaths at a wedding reception, 2 child murders, one wolf kill, one wolf attack.

    POVs to date: 8

    Sansa's character arc to date: Watches fiancee humiliated/

    Rating: 1/5
     
  13. Kyptastic

    Kyptastic VIP star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2005
    Considering that most young people don't have a wealth of experience or events to influence them at such a young age, is it not alright for a child character to begin simple and develop complexity later on? Because it seems to me that you're judging them based on the start of their character arc, and not their end.
     
  14. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 14, 2001
    Children can be very *complex* characters in fantasy.
     
  15. corran2

    corran2 Jedi Master star 4

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    May 16, 2006
    After awhile, sure, but take Harry Potter for example. Harry, Ron and Hermione were quite simple for the first two or three books, but later books made them much more complex. I don't think we should expect Sansa to have any complexity after one chapter.
     
  16. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2001
    Most children do have characters, and even in the first book, Rowling establishes Hermoine's perfectionism and curiosity, Ron's jealousy and sibling rivalry, and Harry's anxiety and stoicism as keynotes of their characters. She writes for eleven-year-olds in the first book, so it's simply done, but it's there. Sansa is written as a dim-witted snob, while a little more skill could make her pretensions amusing or even touching. And in order to make her interesting, *something* is needed. Otherwise, why use her POV? If plot is unconnected to character, it quickly becomes melodrama. But so far Bran was injured so fast that no personality registered; Arya is a stereotypical tomboy, and Sansa is an equally stereotypical flouncing princess.

     
  17. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP

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    Jul 13, 2008
    Yeah, and Hermione was the stereotypical good student, Harry was the stereotypical popular kid, and Ron was the stereotypical "kid you would punch in the face if not for various laws." What's your point?
     
  18. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 14, 2001
    The difference is: they're interesting, or none of us would have read farther. I have not the faintest interest in Bran, Arya nor Sansa.
     
  19. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    You mean the difference is that they're interesting to you. Which isn't really a difference at all except for you. I did not personally find the characters all that captivating in Harry Potter 1, but the concept was intriguing enough to me that I kept reading until they became interesting to me. Which is more or less how it happened in AGOT for me, except I also had Jon and Tyrion to capture my attention.
     
  20. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 14, 2001
    Okay, the concept of this series and the execution is lacking to me. Most of the characters bore me. The style is terribly irritating. The dialogue is laughable. The only interesting part is its popularity.

    (You must be catching italics from this chapter.)

     
  21. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    No, it's just my preferred method of adding emphasis which I developed from writing lots and lots of RP posts because I find bold to be aesthetically unfulfilling for reasons which quickly become obvious.:p
     
  22. DarthTerrious

    DarthTerrious Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 16, 2001
    OH dear why are people engaging in a childish thread of "I don't like this and I'm gonna ***** about it for a number of blah blah posts"?

    ASOIAF may not be the greatest literary piece of all time, that much I would concede, but its a very thrilling piece of literature, for me in any case.

    Why does a manager of these forums who is clearly trolling for personal gratification still get all these pages of a thread to be a whiny ***** and yet newer posters get one post and their outta here.

    Pure hypocrisy IMHO.

    Anyway I'll go back to re-reading AFFC now and await ADWD in July with baited breath.
     
  23. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    But why don't you find them interesting? You can't just say "I don't find them interesting" and leave it at that. Merlin_Ambrosius69 wrote out a long post about what he likes about the books and the show, including specific examples. There's no reason why you can't do the same.
     
  24. GrandAdmiralPelleaon

    GrandAdmiralPelleaon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2000
    I'm not sure if I'm terribly keen on engaging in this discussion, but I do find it sort of entertaining that somebody who likes Harry Potter is apparently going on about Martin being 'derivative' and a 'bad copy'. That's pretty much how I felt about Harry Potter. Makes me giggle - especially when you go on about the names being good in one, bad in the other,

    Anyway, continue on. You must have a lot of time though, I certainly wouldn't waste mine on reading a series I dislike unless I was getting payed for it.
     
  25. Nevermind

    Nevermind Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 2001
    The difference between this series and Harry Potter is that Rowling has wit. It's that simple.

    Why don't I find AGOT interesting? Well, I'm glad you asked!