Lit Assassinating the Emperor: Impossible or Ingenious

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Vialco, Jul 10, 2013.

  1. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    if we take the maximalist route with Palpatine... (like some do for Luke too) then I argue this leads to diminishing VADER compared to Palpatine quite a lot. People tend to view Palpatine as more powerful than Vader. That is wrong, Vader is the Chosen One, the most powerful. Palpatine was just brighter and clever to abuse Vader as well as his surroundings so well. But he is not the dark side or as powerful as Vader. close maybe but not close enough. Same for Luke, he is the chosen one's son.. not the chosen one.
  2. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    80 percent quote coming in 3 ... 2 ... 1
  3. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Anakin had the greatest talent for the Force in documented history. You could perhaps argue that he was the "most powerful Jedi" (as the RotS novel suggests) in the same way Roddick was (at one time) the most "powerful" tennis player, despite not being the best overall, but if you're using "power" as a catch all term to denote skill and ability, then no, Anakin/Vader was never THE most powerful anything, Jedi or Sith.

    He had the potential to be, but it was never achieved. Except, perhaps, I like to think, in the final moments of his life.

    If we follow your reasoning to its conclusion, then we have to argue that an untrained Anakin was more powerful than Yoda in TPM. Which is crazy talk.

    Still, since we're on the subject, "By himself [Vader] could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known". - Vader: The Ultimate Guide

    I don't see how this is up for debate.

    EDIT: Though I do suspect that, had Vader allowed Luke to die on the Death Star -- and the spark of good he had inside along with him -- then he'd have mastered the regenerative abilities he was working on in SotE and eventually overthrown Palpatine. Maybe. But I'm a Vader fanboy. :p
    Last edited by Ulicus, Jul 11, 2013
  4. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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  5. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Well, I'll confess that I'm desperately hoping for a "PURGE" film where I finally get the "Vader smacks down cyborg-arm Mace Windu" fight I've always wanted.

    Hey, if not, I guess REBELS could deliver on that. [face_thinking]
    Last edited by Ulicus, Jul 11, 2013
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  6. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    it is very up for debate:

    Anakin had the greatest talent in the Force and never fully used it. Right so far. Palpatine had a big talent but like Yoda and Mace that was only half or less of what Anakin had for a talent. Yet Palpatine made the most ouf of his talent one could say. So that is the distinction I set. Anakin did not use his full potential as Sith, used it more so as Jedi. As Sith he felt himself to be limited (a train of thought Palpatine at times liked to keep him at bay, at other times he encouraged him to give up whining and surpass his own selfset limitations). Palpatine aspired though far beyond his talent, whereas Anakin limited himself. Even untrained Anakin was a force of nature, protected by the Force, surviving under harsh conditions and against all odds (Podrace etc.) and he probably untrained could have taken out Yoda. Yes, if not by Forceknowledge at least by luck/talent (which is the Force protecting him with circumstances etc.) and instinct, which Yoda did not use as often as Anakin would. Anakin was all instinct, even betraying Jedi dogma for his instinct that lead him to become the greatest Jedi ever. So even young Anakin was a force of nature.

    Vader TUG though is povbased and Vaders pov was that Palpatine was more powerful than him. Which IS crazy talk. It is Vaders own crazytalk of limiting himself since he lost so much, not feeling whole ever again etc. Vader always could have bested Palpatine, but the Force and as its extension Vader himself was needed to stay Sith for a while and thus prevented (himself) to escape that prison. Vader technically had to limit himself unconsciously by will of the Force in order to not just kill Palpatine and be the sole Sith Lord, which would have complicated his redemption! By limiting himself till his redemption moment, he could fulfill the prophecy in ROTJ. So Vader is more powerful than Palpatine easily, but limited himself on purpose as per will of the Force, even if that was not clear to himself at times.
  7. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Dark Lord disproves this theory. In the beginning of DL he was full of self doubts (who could blame him after what happened), but throughout the novel he overcame those doubts and became the true killer machine we know from the OT (even though saber fighting was more simple back then because of effects etc.).

    Also for my life I can't see him have any doubts about himself in ANH and TESB. He comes across as supremely confident yet careful.

    I always thought Vader was about on par with Palpatine. A force user that is double as powerful as Palpatine is crazy talk imo. It is too much power.
  8. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    do the math: Yoda vs. Palpatine in ROTS: even match
    TPM midichloriancount: Anakin surpasses Yoda by far
    => therefore Anakin far beyond Palpatine and Yoda

    and I know Dark Lord had him overcome some of his doubts, not all though as later novels/comics show. Vader is a badass fighting machine, but he fights and keeps himself busy to not think, to not remember. it is a useful distraction, not him returning to his full potential, which is something else entirely than the Badass fighter level he keeps himself at which is just about 2 cents below palpatines max level.

    so no you do not convince me at all with your propaganda!
  9. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Propaganda? I am like the greatest Vader fan in the universe. But I also like to think he did reach his full potential in the OT. He is a true Dark Lord and 100% in-tuned with the dark side, not some simple lackey.

    But just because had more midis than the overrated troll doesn't make him twice as powerful as Palpatine. Maybe 5% more, but twice is silly. It doesn't even fit with Anakin presentation in the prequels (where he gets his butt kicked more often than not).

    I also don't think that you have to be on par with the midis to fight to a draw like Palpatine and Yoda did. Palpatine is stronger than Yoda imo when it comes to force magics, but not so good with the saber (I don't count killing redshirt Jedi, no matter how accomplished they are in the EU).
  10. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    This is not a Vader vs. Palpatine thread (indeed, the OP made it clear he didn't want Vader to factor into the discussion at all!). I realise that I've played my own part in furthering this digression, but at this point we all agree to disagree and move on.

    Back to assassinating Palpatine.
    ;)
    Last edited by Ulicus, Jul 11, 2013
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  11. LivingJediDream Jedi Grand Master

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    I remember a long time ago reading a mention about a comic, possibly from SW Tales, which has a panel with Vader and a Spaarti cylinder with a Palpatine clone. Did I dream this?
  12. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    good way to end this :p until next time then... for I still await your detailed reply. if not here then elsewhere.

    as for assassinating Palpatine... I want a novel where a clone of Palpatine tries to assassinate Palpatine because he does not want to get possessed!
  13. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    yub you did cause Tales did not have that.
  14. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

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    It should be remembered that Palpatine can see the future. Matter of fact, he is really good at it - kind of makes it hard to pull off an assassination. Not to mention multiple legions of spies and guards so fanatical that they make GrandAdmiralJello look downright treasonous.

    When Zaarin captured him, I am sure it is because it was part of Palps' plans, that he wanted to see where the plan was going as a test of Zaarin's abilities or the abilities of Palp's own loyalists, or because he was bored that day and wanted a good laugh.

    That said, I am not sure that Palpatine was, or even saw himself as, beyond normal men entirely, or else I can't imagine why he...well, did half of the things that he did.
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  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Actually he is no good at it. He claimed to have foreseen everything that would happen in ROTJ, but that turned out totally wrong, didn't it?

    Don't you think that's a bit speculative?
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  16. LelalMekha Force Ghost

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    Well, it seems that he does see the future quite well, but downright refuses to accept what he saw when it doesn't look good. When Kadann told him that the Death Star II would go boom, Palpatine flat out dismissed that.
    Last edited by LelalMekha, Jul 11, 2013
  17. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Interesting. But would he really openly spout "everything is proceeding as I have foreseen" when he's just seen his own death? That's some strong denial.
  18. LelalMekha Force Ghost

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    It did proceed as he had foreseen.... until the point when Vader betrayed him. I can portray Palpatine as the kind of man who thinks that "Fate" is nothing compared to his own will.
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  19. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    And why even try to turn Luke when he knows the boy won't turn? Nah, imo it all makes no sense. Palpatine was simply spouting impressive sounding nonsense, a clever tactic to appear more knowing and powerful than he actually is.

    Edit: He also urged Luke to kill Vader, implicating that he didn't foresee that Luke would refuse.
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 11, 2013
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  20. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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  21. blackmyron Force Ghost

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    Zaarin was, hands down, the biggest threat to Palpatine's rule. By that point, he had already set in motion the destruction of the Alliance... which had pretty much been on the ropes since Hoth. Zaarin, on the other hand, was zooming about the galaxy destroying or taking as much high tech as he possibly could. Despite his own hatred of the Rebel Alliance, Zaarin's own rebellion laid the groundwork for the early New Republic by doing serious harm to the Imperial war machine.
  22. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Ah yes, my error. The evil Luke Skywalker unmasked the helpless Lord of the Sith, leaving him to die a terrible death by asphyxiation. Is that correct, my liege?
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 11, 2013
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  23. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

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    That's what I meant though - the way Palpatine delivers his lines in ROTJ gave me the impression that everything had always turned out exactly as he had foreseen...until Luke refused him.

    I was always interested in how Palpatine always seemed to believe in the certainty of fate while Yoda said that the future could be changed - it struck me as an interesting reversal of the usual situation.
    Which is reason 27761 that I hate Anakin being the Chosen One.
  24. Vialco Force Ghost

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    I half agree with this point.

    The threat to Palpatine from Zaarin was not his military campaign. The Empire spans an entire galaxy and as long as the Core remains secure and the Emperor alive, the Empire will continue to thrive. Zaarin was a threat to Palpatine because he managed to kidnap the Emperor and put him physically at risk. How Zaarin did this is something that has never been explained.

    And no, Arden Lyn and an energy cage do not constitute an explanation. Palpatine defeated Yoda, and say what you will about the Mace fight and whether or not Sidious threw it, Mace Windu was also a powerful match for Sidious. I guess you can handwave an explanation for Zaarin's capture of the Emperor if you say that Lyn was a warrior on par with Mace Windu, and that she somehow managed to capture Palpatine. Unlikely, as that was something neither Mace nor Yoda could do.

    However, I still maintain that the greatest threat to Palpatine during his reign was Gentis's plot. It was so incredibly simple that it caught Sidious completely off-guard, and at the perfect time. Mere months after ROTS when the Empire is still new, when there are Separatist remnants, many Jedi survivors and a still-growing Imperial Army, Palpatine is at his most vulnerable.

    The Aorth-6 virus had Palpatine near-death, bleeding and suffering from a lethal virus that had killed all other fully biological humanoids in the vicinity. Palpatine is quite literally dying and has to enter a medical coma to survive. In all the EU I have ever read, I have never seen Emperor Palpatine that vulnerable before and I actually commend Hayden Blackman for taking that bold step, it made for a very entertaining comic and the only Star Wars works I have bought in recent years.

    Gentis used one of Palpatine's greatest and perhaps only weakness. Despite all his power, he is still a mortal man, made of flesh and blood just like all other humans. And the human body is a fragile shell and can be destroyed. Essence transference is not immortality, as DE shows. If you kill the Emperor, he won't just pop into a clone and come back in mere minutes to kill you. He will be out of the action for years. I submit that Headmaster Gentis's coup attempt was possibly the most effective plot against the Emperor that we have seen so far.

    Although why Vader didn't just finish the wounded Sith Master in his chambers is beyond me. Especially since this is shortly after ROTS and Vader makes it clear that he hates Palpatine for ruining his life.

    Edit: Thanks to Ulicus for getting this thread back on topic. This isn't the place to bash the Chosen One Prophecy or discuss Vader vs. Palpatine, people. This is a thread to discussing other threats to HIMS and how those might have succeeded.
    Last edited by Vialco, Jul 11, 2013
  25. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

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    Whether Vader hated his master or not is highly debatable. The sources vary.

    @MercenaryAce
    Or maybe he was simply delusional? When you start making such predictions and they come true a couple times you will start to believe in your future sight, even when it is total bull****. I mean in real life there are enough people who think they are magic.
    Luke did say Palpatine was overconfident. Maybe this overconfidence blinded him to reality.

    That word is not allowed
    Last edited by GrandAdmiralJello, Jul 11, 2013