Lit Assassinating the Emperor: Impossible or Ingenious

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Vialco, Jul 10, 2013.

  1. LivingJediDream Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2010
    star 4
    If Vader killed Palpatine in Ghost Prison, could he realistically have consolidated the power of the Empire, or is siding with Palpatine the smart move?
  2. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    It's a Harry Potter deal after all... Potter is only powerful cause of the link to Voldemort. Anakin only exists because the Force needed him BECAUSE Palpatine grew too powerful and his master before him too. So even if recent sources did not go the route of Palpatine tied genetically to Shmi/Anakin, Anakins existence is tied indirectly to the Sith and Palpatine still. So one may argue Anakin is only powerful because Palpatine is..

    well, if Palpatine forsees all.. I wonder why he build a second Death Star with bigger flaws than the first :p or was DS2 just a trap for the rebels never intended to be finished.. with DS3 nearfinished already and ready to jump to Endor right after the trap was sealed off by Interdictors? a pity some Star Tours hotshots interrupted that then in time for the rebels to take out DS2 and the Emperor :p

    then again, maybe Palpatine forsaw Endors failure and ignored it because he also saw Dark Empire afterwards with himself alive, Luke having taken Vaders place... [face_whistling] to be honest, Kadann couldn't even predict the weather of coruscant.. I'd not have believed him either.

    but to cut to the point: Palpatine could easily be trapped or kidnapped because he was too overconfident. He had seen Dark Empire and took it for granted. That's why his security was lax. That is why so many traitors were nearly successful to take him out. It's like he begged to die and show them he can return from death.. finally starting his final phase of the plan, his Dark Side Theocracy as he had forseen would only happen after his death. He waited for one to be successful, but in true sith fashion did not let every Joe simply do it.

    In a way Endor was Palpatine's Vitiate moment. Like the Sith Emperor from TOR, Palpatine collected nearly all servants and important people, ships, etc. to one spot. the Battle of Endor. It was a big sacrifice, a celebration of death and the dark side that would set him free to become more than a mortal hull. a luminious being, but one of darkness. Like Exar Kun's Massassi slaughterhouse ceremony, or Vitiates Sith Lord deathorgy consumption, Nihilus hunger of Malachor or else... Lord Sidious maybe planned Endor as his big sacrifice and growth beyond the mortal hull, and that is why everything proceeded as he had forseen.. including the transformation/death of himself. He would return anyway.

    "It's a trap!" after all.. but not just for the Rebels. The DS was about to destroy Endor and its moon nearly before it blew, with fleets so close by obliterated in the blast most likely.
  3. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    @LivingJediDream
    Vader had no real allies back then (his Jedi friends were all dead). Siding with Palpatine was definitely wise. He also still had a lot too learn from the man (not only force skills but also politics and leadership).
    Last edited by Darth_Pevra, Jul 11, 2013
  4. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Yeah, Palpatine was living in a fantasy world......like Star Wars.

    lol sorry, that's actually a play on a Wanderlei Silva quote, just putting Palpatine's name in for someone else.

    (yeah, it's a sports reference, from back when I was still a sports fan)
  5. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    @Charlemagne19 sums it up pretty well IMO

  6. Skaddix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2012
    star 4
    Now I gotta say there is no way Palps should be effected by a blaster bolt besides being annoyed.
  7. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    There is a huge difference between "Palpatine is really good at seeing the future" and "Palpatine is infallible when seeing the future." The former is irrefutably correct; the latter is, no matter what the Emperor might think, demonstrably false. @MercenaryAce didn't claim Sidious's foresight was flawless, which is all you've proven. So I'm really not sure what you're getting at here.
  8. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    I have to admit I find this kind of belief bizarre. Palpatine is a great master of the force...but his body is still flesh and bone. He can move fast enough to block a bolt with his sabers, or to fry a guy with force lighting before a shot is fired, but if a blaster does connect it would kill him just as dead.

    I mean, his Royal Guard aren't trained to the level they are just for sadistic kicks. (Or are they...?)

    Or do people think that Star Wars runs off of DnD rules and Palpatine has more hitpoints than a Star Destroyer?
  9. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    Funny enough, Palpatine actually has withstood a blaster bolt to the stomach and registered nothing other than severe annoyance. (Star Wars: Empire: Betrayal). It likely owes to the Force imbuing him with superhuman physicality; which Jedi and Sith demonstrate routinely.
    Starkeiller likes this.
  10. LivingJediDream Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2010
    star 4
    Palpatine wanted to get shot by Han Solo.
  11. blackmyron Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2005
    star 5
    On the contrary, Zaarin was more of a military threat than the Alliance during the year between Hoth and Endor. First, he had the resources of a Grand Admiral. Second, he was head of R&D and knew pretty much all the secret research facilities across the galaxy.
    If the Empire had won the Battle of Endor? Sure, even if Zaarin hadn't already been defeated by Thrawn. His big chance was the kidnapping of Palpatine. But by destroying access to almost every advanced starfighter the Empire was designing. And really, that's all we saw from one ace pilot's perspective, what was Zaarin doing on the front of advanced capital ships? His modus operandi was always to destroy what he couldn't take himself.
    And there's always the big unknown question - what happened to Zaarin's forces after his death. Because a lot of his fleet went unaccounted for.

    They do, in that it makes more sense than Zaarin capturing the Emperor without any Force-users. Chalk it up to "Zaarin did it" and a long shot that paid off.

    On the contrary, that was the time Sidious was most vulnerable - he should've expected something like that at the time.
    What makes Zaarin's plot more dangerous was that he almost managed to pull it off when Palpatine was almost completely secure during the height of Empire, after a number of failed plots involving the Imperial military. Zaarin should've never been able to get as far as he did, but he did - and it was completely unexpected. Zaarin held off until a vulnerable point - when Vader was off hunting down the minor traitor Admiral Harkov - and ambushed both Vader and Palpatine simultaneously; and it was a single pilot that saved the Empire, not Vader or Palpatine. Not only that, but Zaarin managed to escape his failed coup and instead of going into hiding went on the offensive against the Empire.
  12. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    I couldn't buy the emperor's plight in Ghost Prison. The whole 'I'm Just A Helpless Old Man' act Darth Sidious pulls when he wants his enemies to underestimate him and more sympathy from his followers. He did the same thing during Order 66, when Mace Windu supposedly 'deformed' him. It's hard to say how many in the empire actually know that Palpatine is a Sith Lord, but I'm going to guess- absolutely no one. That's why he's usually the one with the element of surprise.

    As for biological weapons, it was suggested in Truce in Bakura and a few other instances in the EU that there are force techniques can remove diseases from the body. Although the dark side isn't known for its regenerative properties to say the least, I thought that Sidious' coma was just him using the force rather than an effect of the virus.

    Also, I think the rule of two does factor into this. Sith strengthen themselves in the dark side by using their anger and have a system that completely encourages betrayal. Since Darth Plaguis was killed in his sleep, it's implied the emperor has learned from that and doesn't sleep at all. Much less go under on an operating table completely at the mercy of his apprentice. Who far from being a licensed medical professional, would inform the droids that life support suits are what all the cool Sith are wearing now days.
    Last edited by VanishingReality, Jul 11, 2013
  13. KamSolusar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2001
    star 2
    I remember the SW Gamer article The Emperor's Pawns also said something about Palpatine going to Korriban and getting nearly killed by the ancient Sith Lord ghosts. One of his boys (Jeng Droga?) had to go get him and ready a clone body in case Palpatine's current body didn't make it. Maybe this incident happened shortly before the kidnapping and Palps was in a coma/delirium?
  14. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5

    so you saying Zaarin attacked him when he was already in recovery on his return trip from Korriban? And that is why Arden Lyn was around, because he had taken his Hands to Korriban? If so, she must've had defeated Jeng Droga too before kidnapping him, but it certainly would explain why she was successful against Palpatine. Add to that, that maybe she kidnapped the clone body and not the original one IF that one died indeed, giving credence to Palpatine using bodyhopping before Endor already which some sources hinted at. He was weak right after the bodyhopping. Or she kidnapped the dead body and all thought it was the real one :p Or Palpatine used doppelganger.. but I like this new theory! Brilliant!
  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    How is the former irrefutably correct? For it to be correct there would need to be a lot of examples in which he did see into the future and his predictions come true. I can't remember examples of this.
  16. Parnesius Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2012
    star 1
    One I don't believe anybody's brought up: an unknown party (well, unknown to us at any rate) tried to assassinate the Emperor at the Galactic/Imperial Games on Coruscant. Another internal coup attempt? Crazed Jedi? Die-hard Separatists? Bel Iblis or another proto-Rebel? A Silver Age-style sports-themed supervillain battling (racing?) Vader for the Emperor's life?

    Could that have been the same trip to Korriban as the one where Renegade Squadron ambushed Palpatine and locked him in a tomb?

    I'm not sure which I prefer: the Emperor's every attempt to spend a quiet weekend of philosophical contemplation on Korriban, away from the hurly-burly of running the galaxy, being truncated in increasingly infuriating ways, or, a concatenation of events, contributed to by Zaarin, the rebels, ancient Sith ghosts and probably a dozen other annoyances, resulting in the Worst Vacation Ever.
    Starkeiller and CeiranHarmony like this.
  17. General Immodet Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2012
    star 4
    I think the coup orchistrated by Tarkin and Motti would have been the most succesful one.
    At least, if they would not have died during the Battle of Yavin.

    What do you all think about Colonel Nord's coup?
  18. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    In the very same movie you cite as proof of Palpatine's mediocrity, we have at least two examples of Sidious using foresight successfully predicts that that the Rebels will come to Endor and that Luke will surrender himself to Vader. If we include the EU and other films, the list increases.

    Your dislike of the character is driving you to conflate "really good" with "perfect." No one said he was perfect, but he deserves more credit than you give.
  19. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    Not to mention that nearly every Clone Wars story and a good many Dark Times story will feature at least a brief scene of Palpatine cackling that everything is proceeding exactly as he has foreseen, no matter how unlikely the events in question.

    It is kind of his thing.
    Sable_Hart likes this.
  20. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Fair enough. But you must admit it is easy to get carried away when people claim he could foresee everything.

    I am not sure the Rebels coming to Endor counts though. The information about the DS construction has been placed into their hands by imperial agents. They had to come.
  21. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    With regards to Foresight the most important thing to remember, regarding Palpatine or anyone else, is how the Force bends probability. Palpatine may foresee events that have a 99% probability of happening, and therefore he's going to be right a lot, but those probabilities can change in the moment when the Force starts grabbing at the reins of destiny, and something can go from a 1% chance of happening to an absolute certainty.

    That's mostly how Palpatine's failures/captures/reversals have worked out - something really strange has happened to turn the tide. A massive tribe of Ewoks sides with the Rebellion, Galen Marek defies his entire upbringing to forsake revenge and save the Rebellion's founders, Arden Lyn cold-clocks him with massive cybernetic strength, Gentis just happens to get his hands on a bioweapon capable of incapacitating a Sith Lord.

    Luke was right when he said 'Your overconfidence is your weakness.' Palpatine built his career on taking unbelievably huge gambles when he felt he was holding all the cards, this led him to, over time, conflate 99% with 100%, and eventually his number came up.
  22. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    Well said, Mechalich!
  23. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Unfortunately the theory doesn't work because Zaarin's attempt occurred like two years after that incident. The Emperor wasn't disoriented THAT long :p
  24. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    damn it would have been so sweet..

    well.. I still believe EVERY shuttle launched from the stardestroyer carried an Emperors clone body. while the true Palpatine still had not picked which to enter yet. thus Marek Steele could only win :p
  25. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    Another being that stood a fairly good chance of actually killing Palpatine was Galen Marek, the original Starkiller. Though he did die while fighting Darth Sidious, he came as close as both Mace Windu and Yoda.

    Starkiller made it through all the stormtroopers, Royal Guards and even Darth Vader and fought the Emperor face to face. And he almost won, getting Palpatine on his back, without a lightsaber.

    But of course, a Sith is never unarmed and Marek perished. But he is another character that came extremely close to assassinating the Emperor.