PT "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi." Why?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by EntechednReformatted, Nov 23, 2011.

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  1. EntechednReformatted Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2009
    star 1
    With the forthcoming Darth Plagueis novel coming out and likely exploring the background and details of Sidious's grand plan, I thought it would be interesting to speculate on a question in this forum before the EU (maybe) takes a crack at it and sticks us with an answer that a significant segment of fandom will insist is gospel.

    Why did the Sith reveal their existence in TPM? It seems premature. Wouldn't it have been safer to maintain their anonymity until their plans were further along? Like, say, after executing Order 66. They had been in hiding for a thousand years, but they were drawn out by the need to track down a fugitive queen? Couldn't a bounty hunter have done that? And since Amidala's presence on Coruscant actually worked out pretty darn well for Palpatine anyway, was this just a rare strategic lapse? Or did the Sith benefit in some other, more subtle way by their emergence at that point?

    A few possibilities off the top of my head:

    1. (Jedi) Knight takes (Darth) Pawn. Sidious knew that he would need an inside man in the Jedi order to faciliate the creation of the clone army. Maul was, if not deliberately sacrificed, then at least willfully endangered because Sidious knew he would have to get rid of him soon anyway to pave the way for a converted Jedi. With the upcoming need to forge the Separatist movement, Maul was nearing the end of his usefulness. (That would put a different spin on "We are indebted to you for your bravery, Obi-Wan Kenobi.")

    2. Psychological Warfare. By raising the specter of the return of the Sith, perhaps paranoia would make the Jedi more likely to wholeheartedly enter the Clone Wars once they suspected a Sith plot at work. When the Jedi hear the Truth from the mouth of a Sith, they believe the Lie. "What if I told you that hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious?"

    3. Distraction. As the plan progressed, Sidious knew that the Jedi would become aware that the Dark Side was growing ever stronger. Perhaps he felt it would be better if the Jedi were focused on the manhunt for Darth Bogeyman than for them to actually look at the big picture and see the reasons the galaxy and the Force were darkening.
  2. Eternity85 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2008
    star 3
    Its an interesting question. I think you are on to something in your two last points. I think Sidious was very aware of the timing, and he knew that revealing themselves now would set things in motion. However, at this time, in TPM i believe Sidious had already started to convert Dooku to his cause, so he had a back-up apprentice ready. But i doubt he deliberately lost his long time investment Darth Maul, it does not make any sense.

    I guess Sidious felt ready; he had set the stage on the political arena already, and he knew there would be a battle of Naboo in the near future. It seems like each time he climbs the ranks on the political arena, he also changes apprentice. Senator to Chancellor = Maul for Dooku. Chancellor to Supreme Chancellor = Eventually Dooku for Anakin. Supreme Chancellor to Emperor = Anakin for Darth Vader. Dont know if there`s a connection there.
  3. JediMaster1511 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2010
    star 9
    It was always known as Supreme Chancellor. Valorum was Supreme Chancellor. In fact it says it in the opening crawl.


    The other parts of it make sense though, he does seem to upgrade apprentice with each rank.
  4. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    I think the answer depends on Yoda's line about how the Jedi were beginning to lose their abilities, and how the Force was out of balance. If Sidious knew this, then by letting the Jedi know the Sith had returned would cause them to become confused, desperate, and even a little bit fearful. Dooku does something similar in AOTC, by giving out little half-truths to Obi-Wan, which further confuses the Jedi Order. I suppose the best way to spread disinformation is to weave in a little bit of truth, rather than outright lie, which makes it difficult to seperate truth from fact.

    Knowing the Jedi will become confused and desperate, it would make it easier to trap them into accepting the Clone army down the line.
  5. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    The line does raise some questions.

    When it was said, Palpatine was still just a senator and did not have the great power he would later have. And the Jedi had not been weakened by war. So his position is not all that strong. If him being a sith came out and the Jedi came to arrest him he would have no clone army nor total power in the senate. The Jedi had become lax in their vigilance and did not suspect that there could be sith about.

    Also one does wonder why the Sith want revenge, no reason is ever given. We know that the sith were thought to have been wiped out 1000 years ago but if it was the jedi that did that is unclear.

    Further questions; Maul shows himself to Qui-Gon but Qui-Gon gets away. So Palpatine knows that the Jedi now knows that there still are sith around and they would act on this. So why let Maul go to Naboo? For all he knows, the Jedi council could have sent 5-6 Masters and 10-15 senior knights to capture Maul instead of just two Jedi, one of which was not even a knight. This could have led to Maul getting captured instead of killed. And that would not be good for Palpatine. Maul could talk and Palpatine would be exposed. Maul did not need to go to Naboo, Palpatine had gotten what he wanted. Valorum was out and he could make his move to be chancellor.
    Padme had served her part and he did not need her anymore. So he could simply warn the TF that Padme was comming and tell them NOT to remove the blockade. Then Padme gets captured or the TF simply blows her ship up.
    Easy, peasy.

    Same thing in AotC really, if Dooku got captured then a) it would probably mean the end of the seps and the end of the war and b) Dooku could also talk and Palpatines identity would be known.

    That this did not happen seems to me to mostly be due to Jedi incompetence rather than Palpatine being clever.

    Regards
    Nordom
  6. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    I doubt that the Jedi were that incompetant because they had no idea that the Sith were still around. Even when Qui-Gon reported that he was attacked by a Sith Lord, the Jedi Council weren't going to jump to conclusions since he didn't have any proof. They couldn't do the same with Dooku either since that for all the Jedi knew, he left the Jedi Order due to Qui-Gon's death and their ineffectiveness in dealing with the corruption in the Republic. PalpSidious is aware of their unawareness of the Sith's existence which is why he wasn't concerned about sending Maul to Naboo nor was he concerned for Dooku. He knew what they were planning to do before they could make a move and he also knew that Anakin would let his lack of impulse control prevent the Jedi from capturing Dooku. The only part that Palpsidious didn't expect was Obi-wan killing Darth Maul but that part is a minor setback.

    As for why the Sith want revenge, a few quotes from AOTC clue us in on their reasons like:

    "There hasn't been a full scale war since the formation of the Republic."
    "I will not let this republic which has stood for 1,000 years, be split in 2."

    It seems that this full-scale war and the Republic's formation occurred around the same time the Sith "supposedly" became extinct. I'll bet that the Sith and the Jedi were involved in this war and the Jedi kicked all of their asses leaving only 2 Sith Lords remaining, hence why the Sith want revenge.
  7. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Actually, it was literally just one Sith Lord remaining, and he was as complicit in the deaths of his fellow Sith Lords as the Jedi were.
  8. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Darth Maul liked exposing himself to other people. :p
  9. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    A very good question. Why would they? There could be many reasons. I'll list two that make sense.

    1. Sidious wanted Darth Maul to hunt and destroy the Jedi because, he now thought his apprentice was powerful enough to take on anyone. Hence the name he gave him, Maul, which is a powerful hammer-like weapon.

    2. Sidious wanted and hoped Maul would get killed off because, he now needed a popular and political figurehead to be the fallguy. Hence the reason he chose Dooku, a former Jedi and noble born Count, with vast riches, I presume.


  10. Jack1138 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2005
    star 5
    Maul was a 'fall guy' and a thug. A decent fighter that served the purpose of revealing to the Jedi that the Sith had returned.

    Yoda: Always 2 there are, a master and an apprentice.
    Windu: But which was killed? The master or the apprentice?

    camera pans to the new Chancellor Palpatine

    You get into AOTC and at the beginning of the film Padme feels that Count Dooku was behind the assassination attempt. Both Ki Adi Mundi and Mace Windu dismiss this as they feel he is a political idealist and not a murderer, plus he was once a Jedi, it is not in his character. More ignorance. Only at the end of this film do they see the truth.

    We get into ROTS and FINALLY they see something wrong with Chancellor Palpatine. By this time it is too late. They do not grant Anakin the rank of Master and Mace pretty much says he does not trust him. Palpatine played the political game perfectly. He had nothing to lose by revealing himself to Anakin. Once the Jedi masters showed up, it looked like an attempt to take over the Republic. Politically, Palpatine could now wipe out the Jedi as traitors to the Republic and he did along with Darth Vader.

    Put a nice bow on it.

    So back to the original point, the 'reveal' was more of a political ploy. Distract the Jedi and set up himself (Palpatine) to get elected as the new supreme chancellor. The politics was all there throughout TPM. He played Padme like a violin to get General Zod (Vallorum) out of power. It worked, and he was a 'good buddy' to the Jedi for many years. Just waiting for the right moment.
  11. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4


    The Jedi council was unsure yes but since they doubt Qui-Gon and do not fully trust him why not send a few more masters along? The Jedi DO know that the TF have declared war on the republic and are working with someone that has a red lightsaber and is skilled enough to fight a Jedi master to a stand still.
    Also Palpatine could not have known HOW the Jedi would react when hearing about the Sith. For all he knew the Jedi COULD have sent 10 or so Jedi. And why even send Maul to Naboo?
    By now Palpatine had gotten what he wanted, Valorum was out and he was on his way to replacing him.
    So Padme is of no interest to him anymore. Simply warn the TF that Padme is coming back and tell them to blow her ship up before she lands, problem solved.
    About Dooku, Palpatine could not have known that Anakin would get anywhere near Dooku. Second the Jedi knows that Dooku is a traitor and plans to attack the republic and he would be the primary target for the Jedi. Strong Dooku may be but he can't beat 20-30 Jedi by himself. If Dooku is killed or captured the war would most likely end and Palpatines plan would not work.

    But when the line was said the plan was for Maul to kill Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan and capture Padme and bring her back to Naboo. So it does not seem to have been any message to the jedi of "Hey, we're back!" as the two Jedi were not meant to survive. Also at the time Palpatine was still going on his original plan, whatever that was, and wanted Padme to return to Naboo and sign the treaty, giving Naboo to the TF.
    Perhaps Maul simply meant that he would reveal himself to the two Jedi on Tatooine and kill them and thus get revenge.

    Regards
    Nordom
  12. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    You've just answered your own question. Just because someone knows how to wield a lightsaber doesn't automatically make one a Jedi or a Sith. Maul could've been a poser for all the Council was concerned so for them, 2 Jedi was more than enough to pin him down.

    First off, PalpSidious has been standing in front of the Jedi for years even BEFORE he became supreme chancellor and none of them could sense that he's a Sith Lord. If he knows that they have no idea that the Sith are still around, then PalpSidious knew knew full well that they wouldn't believe that Qui-Gon's attacker was also a Sith Lord and it's because of that, they won't send more than 2 Jedi after Darth Maul. Besides, he also knows that Valorum sent Qui-Gon and Obi-wan to Naboo in secret and he couldn't risk sending anymore Jedi without getting himself in trouble. PalpSidious sent Maul to Naboo to stop Qui-Gon and Obi-wan from helping Padme reclaim her home planet. He hasn't been elected Supreme Chancellor yet and he's afraid that if Padme gets her home planet back, he'd lose the sympathy vote and will never win the election. Even if she did get Valorum out of office, Padme is still of interest to PalpSidious, especially when Anakin has now entered the picture.

    FYI, PalpSidious has been feeding Anakin's ego since he was a youngling. He has made Anakin believe that he's the "most powerful Jedi ever" as a way of tricking him into believing he can beat Dooku when PalpSidious knew full well that Anakin had no chance against him. Plus, Dooku's lightning powers can put down 20-30 Jedi but only Yoda poses a serious threat to Dooku which will lead to the same outcome.
  13. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4

    As far as I know, no Jedi use a red lightsaber so Maul could not have taken it from a dead Jedi. So either he found a thousand year old sith lightsaber or he made one himself. I find it unlikely that a lightsaber 1000 years old could still work. In RotJ, Vader comments that Luke has built his own lightsaber and that was significant. So Maul is able to build a lightsaber and of a kind that the Jedi do not use. Second Maul did not just have a lightsaber, he could fight a Jedi master until that Jedi master had to run off. So he is very capable. Qui-Gon could not quickly beat Maul, Obi-Wan is not yet a knight so why are they so sure they could beat Maul? They would not be and the council, given their distrust of Qui-Gon, would want to deal with this matter themselves. Also they are going into a war zone and one or both of them could get killed before even getting to Maul. So there is plenty of reason to send more than two Jedi and no good reason not to.


    The jedi not being able to SENSE a Sith =/= the Jedi will not act on information that the sith are back.
    Mace did say that the Jedi will use all their resources to discover the identity of his attacker. About Valorum, he is out of the picture now and what he did is not important, also there is no evidence that sending more than two Jedi would have caused problems for him. He sent them to settle a treaty, not fight a war, so two Jedi would have been enough. This is different, they are going into a war zone and want to CAPTURE a deadly enemy, not so easy. What matters is what the Jedi would do. And Palpatine would have no way of knowing that they would only send two Jedi. Third, stopping Padme is very easy, tell the TF NOT to remove their blockade and shoot down Padme's ship when it appears, easy peasy. Lastly, Palpatine has very little info on Anakin in the middle of TPM and even less about his feelings for Padme so that would not matter to him.



    FYI, last Palpatine heard, Anakin was on Tatooine with Padme and had just been told to stay there so for all he knew, Anakin was not even on Geonosis. Second, some 200 jedi are going so how would Palpatine know that only Anakin would get to Dooku? Third, Obi-Wan was able to stop Dooku's lightning with little difficulty. With Mace and 2-3 other masters there, Dooku would be dead or captured.

    Regards
    Nordom
  14. VadersPappy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2009
    star 1
    I agree with the earlier poster who wrote that Sidious revealed the Sith that were back because he wanted to both entice the Jedi to enter the conflict and focus them on finding who the Sith were.

    He needed to ensure the Jedi fight for the Republic in order to execute Order 66. Sure, the Jedi might have joined the conflict in order to keep the peace, but maybe not. I think that is also why Palpy recruited Dooku to lead the Separatists. There is no way the Jedi stay on the sidelines if the opposing leader was a former Jedi.

    Palp also wanted the Jedi to fixate on finding out who the Sith were and how they had come back without the Jedi knowing so. I think it's quite obvious the return of the Sith threw the Order, especially Yoda and Windu, for a loop. They didn't take the time to consider the ramifications of joining the Clone Wars because they wanted to root out the Sith. Their crisis of confidence also caused them to kind of go with the flow in terms of the Clone Wars and joining the fight.

    Finally, if one believes that Palpy knew about the Chosen One being created by Sith, what better way to ensure the Anakin is trained by the Jedi than having the Sith suddenly being revealed? The Chosen One would be needed to bring balance to the Force. Therefore, the Jedi had no choice but to train Anakin.
  15. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    On the lightsaber color issue, Mace Windu is the only jedi with a purple lightsaber and no other jedi has that colored lightsaber but they didn't accuse Mace of being a Sith Lord so they have no reason to believe that Darth Maul is one either based on having a red lightsaber. As for how Maul handled Qui-Gon, the fact that Qui-Gon made it off Tatooine to inform the Council has made them less concerned about his attacker. They don't believe that anyone can kill a Jedi (and seeing as how Qui-Gon and Obi-wan fought 100 battledroids without breaking a sweat, the Council has good reason not to) so they have no reason to believe that they will die in this war, that they should send more than 2 Jedi, nor do they believe that one person can defeat 2 Jedi by himself and Obi-wan is a Jedi regardless of rank.

    Just because the Council is looking to figure out who Maul is doesn't mean they are certain that he's a Sith. They didn't believe that Palpatine is a Sith Lord even after Anakin told them because they think he's making it up to protect his friend. It is only until Qui-Gon got killed did they finally believe the Sith are back. On Valorum, he's already facing criminal accusations and if anyone in the Republic found out that he sent 2 Jedi to Naboo, they would've removed him from office for misconduct but as you've pointed out, he's already removed so it's irrelevant. As for PalpSidious not knowing what the Jedi are doing, he somehow knew that the Jedi are with Padme on Tatooine despite the Trade Federation not telling him that they escaped from the droid control ship so yes, he would know that the Council would send the same 2 Jedi back to Naboo. If the TF didn't already have complete control of Naboo, then they wouldn't have to remove their blockade but they did so it's NOT so easy peasy to shoot down Padme's ship Lastly, whether PalpSidious knew about Anakin or not is irrelevant since he'll now be "watching him with great interest".
  16. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi." = "We'll show them who's boss!"
  17. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi." Why?

    Because that's what Sith do when the time is right. They emerge from the shadows and directly confront the jedi so they know who beat them.
  18. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Actually I thought it was rather brilliant. Rather than leaving no evidence of their existence, have the Jedi run around looking for them in a confused stupor while they are in fact right under their noses on Coruscant. Misdirection is better strategy than being caught later unexpectedly.

    It's terrorism. Have the Jedi scared of shadows and running around in a fog of confusion.

    Also bear in mind it was Maul who said those lines, he is the over-eager young pup trainee who wants to leap into battle -- so naturally he is excited and impatient about this step which has probably been dangled in front of him since childhood to fuel his hatred.
  19. MandalorianDuchess Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2010
    star 3
    Well, I would imagine that just because they decide they're going to "reveal themselves to the Jedi" it does not necessarily mean that they expect the Jedi Council is going to find out about it.

    Maul was probably a bit overconfident. He may have simply assumed that if he went against 2 Jedi in Naboo, he'd have a fairly easy time killing them both. In which case, there wouldn't be anyone to report him to the Jedi Council.

    Or maybe they just didn't care whether the Jedi Council would know about it or not.

    But my take is that maybe they just mean it will be the first duel between Sith and Jedi in, like, 1,000 years. Meaning the Sith have been around for who knows how long, but have yet to actually have a duel with the Jedi.
  20. GeneralCeel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2005
    star 2
    Maul was a cog in the wheel of Palpatine's master plan. Mace Windu later says "But which was destroyed, the master or the apprentice." As i see it, the crisis surrounding Naboo was the first (public) manifestation of Palpatine's plans. In this stage his goals were 1. the office of Supereme Chancellor and 2. to begin creating fear in the ruling structure of Republic (including the Jedi Council). It was still too soon to reveal himself (that moment would come in Episode III), but the right time to begin occupying the Jedi with a mystery to distract them from his intentions for the government.
  21. MandalorianDuchess Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2010
    star 3
    Yeah. It was his modus operandi, creating one crisis to distract the intended victim while he's doing something else. Like the whole thing in TPM with the TF blockading Naboo is really quite a phantom menace. Palpatine is the real menace. The phantom menace is what is intended to distract his enemies.

    Thus later on, with the whole Separatist movement, the Clone War, etc. - keeping the Jedi focused on the perceived external threat and thus being distracted from the internal threat - a Sith Lord taking over the Republic, turning it into his own Empire, and setting up the trap with which to kill nearly all the Jedi.
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    All he needs is a red crystal.
  23. JediofJade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 5
    I also don't see how Maul having a red lightsaber is of any real significance. 1000 years is a long, long, long time. It would take a lot more than one weird guy with crazy face paint, karate moves, and a red lightsaber to convince the Jedi Council that "omg you guyz teh Sith are back1!!"


    Plus, the fact that we only ever see Sith with red lightsabers is purely a visual aid to the audience. We're used to seeing Vader with the red lightsaber, so historically, red = bad guy. I seriously doubt the Jedi Council were having a discussion about the color of crystals.

    (Yoda: Red, his lightsaber was.

    Mace: You mean, like...vermillion? Crimson? Let us be cautious. My own blue-violet lightsaber could be confused for...

    Yoda: Blue-violet? Lavender, I thought that color was.

    Mace: No. No, I do not own a lavender lightsaber.

    Yoda: Amethyst?

    Mace: ...No. Blue-violet.

    "Well, from a certain point of view-"

    Mace: Shut up, Obi-wan.

    And so on and so forth. Ridiculous.)

  24. MandalorianDuchess Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2010
    star 3
    Then again, it's entirely possible that the red lightsaber was always a trademark of the Sith, and it is such a basic fact of Jedi history that it naturally goes entirely unmentioned.

    Sorry, just playing devil's advocate there. [face_devil]
  25. JediofJade Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 1999
    star 5
    Sure, sure. And because it's so visually important in the films, I take it as personal head!canon that Jedi would shy away from using red crystals in their lightsabers.

    But the point still stands. The fact that Maul's saber was red just wouldn't have carried any weight with the Council, IMHO. Also, 1000 years is, again, a long time for a "basic fact of Jedi history" to remain undiluted and a reliable litmus test for the "Is it a Sith?" game.
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