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Lit At what point did Jacen change the future?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sinrebirth, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

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    May 9, 2000
    While certainly a simple answer, I feel that would derail the whole point of the character when the Han/Leia connection is played up so often...

    :p

    You seem to have been the only person who read through to the punchline.

    But yeah, the more I think of this, the more I like my own randomness. [face_thinking]

    *hiding behind log* You sound like a stormtrooper when you say that...

    Twice, in fact. And I can see Vader wanting a grandson, too - possibly Shira didn't even know she was pregnant?

    I've not changed!

    I feel you're acting like I made an effort - that was seriously just an ad lib. :p

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
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  2. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    When it comes to Ania Solo there are at least three possibilities:
    1) Daughter of a descendant of Jacen through Allana, with a connection to the Hapans
    2) Daughter of a descendant of Jaina, with a connection to the Imperial Royal Family
    3) Daughter of a descendant of Jacen through an unnamed woman he met on his five-year journey.
     
  3. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    or Thracken had a family!
     
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  4. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    Ania was always identified as Han and Leia's descendant.
     
  5. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I can't imagine the torture of being Thrackan Sal Solo's child the man was crazy, thuggish and evil.

    I think we've outlined all the possibilities of Ania's ancestry for the most part.

    Though I suppose one could come up with more and more unlikely and down right fanficcy sort of contrived back stories. Like she was the clone of Anakin and Tahiri's child who married Allana's son or something convoluted and ridiculous like that(although amusing in its own way).

    Though her being a descendant of either Hapan or Fel royalty does present problems she knows her ancestors were "like royalty" and Marasiah has never heard of her.

    I find it difficult to believe she would have been born into royalty or any sort of position of privilege or if she was she only was so for a limited amount of time.

    It's also stated people thought she either had a great destiny or would come to a bad end and she basically said she didn't care a whit about destiny and would make her own life.

    Which implies she either never had any sort of royal or prestigious background or she rejected it. If the former-it makes some of the more out there theories more possible-after all if she was royalty I doubt she would have easily been able to escape such obligations same her parents had done so.

    That makes some of the more outlandish and colorful possibilities more likely-infidelity on the part of either Han or Leia, Jacen having a child with another woman at some point, infedility on Jaina's part, or Anakin and Tahiri having a child somehow or being a clone or descendant of clones of the aforementioned characters.

    Though it could be she did have a more
    prestigious background and either outright rejected it or didn't remember it. Making it likely to be from Allana or Jaina's line.

    It is interesting that she wasn't force sensitive-Allana was, Jacen was, Jaina was, Tenel Ka was, and Marasiah and Cade are.

    It does make the possibility of her being the descendant of infedility on the part of Han possible hence her business inclinations. Though I don't see why Han would do this even if was before he met Leia that means Ania probably wouldn't have as good of a knowledge of her ancestry if she was the descendant of Han and some other woman making her far more removed in terms of distance and familiarity from the sky solos which she does in fact seem to at least be aware of if not really care for or at the very least think herself like or apart of.

    All in all her backstory is fascinating and there is quite a lot of room for speculation. It's a shame Legacy Volume 2 ended so we would never learn the truth but also I think a benefit as it allows the fans to speculate and come up with whatever theories and ideas to their heart's content and that's fun.
     
  6. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

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    Feb 18, 2005
    Well, count me among the stormtroopers, then. ;-)
    To paraphrase an old country doctor, I feel safer about your ad libs than most other people's detailed theories.
     
  7. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

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    May 9, 2000
    Replying to all of you guys at once to avoid repetition...

    Strictly speaking, the only H/L lines of descent we definitively know about are through Allana and Jaina - and we don't know anything beyond the potential those two characters represent...

    1. I don't think we know for sure that Roan and Sia are descended from Jaina - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but as things stand, Jag is as capable as Jacen is of having additional off-screen relationships - he may even have lost a first wife before he enters the continuity in Dark Tide:Ruin, or he may have had a "political" marriage after his breakup with Jaina, ending in divorce after his discommodation in DN3...

    2. Any descendant of Jacen apart from Allana remains as speculative as any other off-screen descendant - such as the idea of an off-scren A/T kid, which Invictus just raised.

    3. I'm not completely ruling out the possibility that Ania herself is in fact one of the two known H/L descendants, Jaina or Allana, notwithstanding the fact that she shows up a century later than we'd expect (she walks like Jaina, talks like Jaina, looks like Jaina, has a name that's basically an anagram of Jaina, and she has absolutely no backstory before appearing in a Sith-Imperial prison camp where AG-37 promptly shows up to rescue her based on a promise to Jaina's dad, after which she proceeds to apply Jaina's distinctive skillset while sustaining one of Jaina's characteristic stubborn funks for the entire length of her story arc)...

    :p

    And yes, all that stuff in the brackets is hypothetical, but that just serves to underline the point I'm making - there are lots of possibilities, and we need to keep in mind the distinction between known unknowns (what happens to Allana and Jaina in genealogical terms) and unknown unknowns (everything else)...

    Replying to this part separately to respond to some specific points Invictus raises:

    1. The "like royalty" thing could easily refer to the Naberrie or Organa family, or even the Solo pretenders in Old Republic-era Corellia.
    2. Whether she is Force-sensitive is never clearly established - she certainly doesn't act or think or train like a Jedi, but she's very clearly rejected a lot of her background, so that could be part of the rejection.
    3. The fact that the Empress has never heard of her could be significant - for both personal and political reasons, Sia should be well aware of both the Hapan and the Fel genealogies including all the descendants of Jag and Allana; this implies that there is no obvious place for "Ania" on the contemporary family tree, and adds weight to the idea that we need to look to earlier generations for her explanation after all...

    Agreed. There are tons of possibilities - Roan had an affair or clandestine second marriage, Jaina had a child some time before marrying Jag - but as we don't even know where Jaina stands beyond the front cover of Sword of the Jedi, we lack a lot of necessary context, and all we have is speculation. Maybe this is the best after all...?

    That... doesn't really work with the pun I was going for - but thanks. :D

    o_O

    *perplexed!Spock musical cue*

    "May all your guesses be right". [face_blush]

    EDIT: *headdesk* - Darth Vua. The Slayer pilot from TUF. Genetically a SkySolo. That's even my own contribution to canon, in the WARFARE cutscene material that was rolled out on the blog. Not definitely a Solo, but certainly a known unknown.

    :oops:

    [face_laugh]

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
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  8. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I agree with you on Marasiah's ignorance making other possibilities more likely. Especially if Eliah Fel was Hapan. I mean if Allana and Jaina's lines intermarried at some point or another Marasiah being the imperial princess and now empress should be well aware of such things. The fact she has never heard of Ania is quite telling that her backstory is more mysterious or removed from the main sky solo descedants.

    Jaina could have had another child either in infedility as empress or just before she married Jag-it's possible maybe she had some sort of affair with Zek or someone and quickly sent the child away.

    Jacen having a child with another woman is I think somewhat possible-either with an unknown woman on his five year trip or some other woman in his life-Danni Quee, Tahiri Veila, Wyn Fel(maaybe), and Nelani Dinn(not impossible but extremely unlikely).

    Han either having an affair or a child from a relationship(or drunken encounter) prior to ANH is possible but I doubt a descendant of a child of such events would be aware of the fact their ancestor was so famous though it doesn't clash with Han's character prior to ANH too much.

    Leia I don't think so-if prior to her meeting Han then the child and descendant would either have the father's name or Organa name. Infidelity on Leia's part isn't impossible after all she was quite nearly seduced albeit with pheromones by Xizor after all though I think Jacen having a descendant by Tahiri or even Nelani Dinn is more likely.

    Maybe Jacen or Jaina had a clone and and Ania was the descedant of that child.

    There are lots of possibilities.
     
  9. srd5090

    srd5090 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 2, 2012
    No need to break our backs conjecturing the infidelity of characters or wacky clone contrivances.

    The simplest answer is that she is Allana's granddaughter. Ania's father is the son of Allana, possibly estranged from the royal family. Likely not first in line for the Hapan Throne.
     
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  10. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I find it hard to believe if Ania was so close to Hapes royal line she would have ended up in a junk yard. She doesn't seem in the slightest like she has recent royal ancestors or family. And even if her parents were estranged I find it hard to believe they or their daughter would end up in a junkyard-I mean Hapes is pretty wealthy after all. And they could have easily lived in luxurious exile somewhere. It's hard to believe a line of the Hapan Royalty would become so desperate as to work in a junkyard in just what 2 or 3 generations?

    And infedilities, clone shenanigans and secret lovers and forgotten encounters are part of the fun of speculation after all :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  11. srd5090

    srd5090 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 2, 2012
    I mean within one generation the son of a former-Queen/Senator and Jedi Knight is living on a moisture farm on Tatooine...

    There are plenty of plausible scenarios where the son of Allana exits Hapan life. Exile, fed up with Hapan society, tales of Grandpa Han on the fringe of the galaxy, etc.
     
  12. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 6, 2007
    You know, Zsinj had a Lancer-class frigate named Backbreaker. I remember it because it was such an odd name for a warship. But typical of that man and his demanding personality.
     
  13. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Han by the late first century ABY was more than likely dead or in permanent retirement.

    And any estranged part of the Hapan family should have rung bells to Marasiah.
     
  14. srd5090

    srd5090 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 2, 2012
    You misunderstand me. Tales OF Han, not FROM him directly.

    And I'm not sure what you mean about Marasiah. Even if it rung bells, it is not as though they would sit down and discuss their ancestors together over tea.
     
  15. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Marasiah should be aware of any cousins in the Hapan line that grew estranged from the family and ended up in desperate or at least modest straits.

    If her mother was Hapan this is even more likely.
     
  16. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    So how do we explain the fact that Ania Solo is identified as Han and Leia's great-granddaughter in pre-release material?
     
  17. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    That is the one puzzle piece that doesn't fit. Everything if one thinks about it all shows her ancestry must either be more obscure or more convoluted then simply Allana's great grand child or something. Maybe it was the fault of the writers and planners for not thinking the context through.

    And I guess we could always say the pre release material was wrong or at least unreliable. Though I think most Star Wars fans would be hesitant to go that route.

    She could still be Han and Leia's descedant but have any of the other possibilities we mentioned involving secret affairs, cloning, and so on being the case.
     
  18. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    Most plausible explanation @srd5090 along with her being a Sal-Solo, I would say. And on her not being royalty anymore, well it's very likely the Solo-Djo line lost power at some point. It's heavily implied in Legacy that Hogrum Chalk and his sister's relatives are on the throne of Hapes. It's very likely Hapes was one of the systems that abandoned the Galactic Alliance in favor of siding with the Fel Empire. To be fair with the way Hapes is, I wouldn't really be surprised for Allana's descendants to not rule the Consortium for very long.
     
  19. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    True. The Hapans were written as pro-Jedi despite spending three centuries anti-Jedi pretty much from the NJO onwards. Wouldn't surprise me if they reverted before Allana even took the throne.
     
  20. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    I imagine their government and some of their ruling classes became pro-Jedi, but the population stayed anti-Jedi which meant a change in power wasn't really that out of the question.
     
  21. srd5090

    srd5090 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 2, 2012
    Perhaps she was aware and was not outwardly revealing of the fact...

    Either way bringing it up wasn't really her priority in any of the Legacy stories, what with Sith plot and governing.
     
  22. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

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    I'm going to condense this down to save space... this first bit for @Darth Invictus, and @srd5090 - I'm on the side that enjoys speculation, but I do try to keep a three-way distinction in mind between what we know for sure, what we can't eliminate from discussion, and what we simply think is fun. With that in mind...

    The fact that Elliah is of Hapan ancestry seems to be implied by the Hapan reaction to the assassination, and the fact that she marries the Emperor suggests she's royalty in her own right; in addition, the fact she's a lightsaber-wielding Force-sensitive, with a Force-sensitive brother, strongly suggests descent from Allana - although a descent from Zekk and Taryn is also possible, as the level of favour TK shows the Zel twins might set them up to take the throne if Allana opted out.

    What isn't ever indicated is that Roan descends from Jaina rather than just from Jag. His Force-sensitivity could come from somewhere else - a descendant of Evelyn Tabory, a Vane of Vallahari, all kinds of options...

    With this in mind, is his "cousin" Morghan definitely a descendant of Jag's, or could he be possibly a nephew of a Force-sensitive wife of Fel II? Or a cousin-by-marriage via Elliah?

    I do take srd's point that what is known about the Solo descendants means that there's a certain simplicity to fitting Ania onto Allana's side - Jaina is married to Jag as of 42 ABY, Jag eventually becomes Emperor, and Jag's son is Roan's father, all of which suggests a well-documented genealogy, while we don't have any comparable context at all for Allana; against that, however, we need to weigh what Invictus says, namely that Sia should know both sides of the family, and doesn't envisage an obvious place for Allana on either. We should also remember that the Fels have adopted the Chiss practice of secretly fostering out at least one child in each generation to protect them from assassination.

    As to the total speculation, I think the emphasis on a H/L descendant implies that we ought to be looking for an answer involving the Solobrats, but while the only "known unknowns" are Jaina and Allana after 42 ABY, there are lots of "unknown unknowns" - there's plenty of continuity space for Jaina to have had an unacknowledged child, such things being very much in the family tradition after all, and Jacen could have done so very easily; we could probably even fit in an A/T kid after Myrkr due to the long continuity gap in which we only have parts of Traitor happening - and that's before we come to the possibility of additional "genetic descendants" because of the YV's experiments with Jedi DNA.

    Some of the possibilities are rather amusing - for example, you can imagine everyone in Legacy is descended from Zekk. :p

    As to Allana, she only ended up in her junkyard after AG-37 rescued her from Sith-Imperial prison, and we know that she's essentially repudiated her previous life, and chosen to be a mechanic as part of that renunciation. As a result, we don't know anything about what sort of person she was before, or about how she got there - except that Sia has no idea who she is, but AG-37 came to rescue her based on a century-old promise to Han, and the droid is evasive about all the other details...

    Incidentally, we only assume that the Wookiee depicted with Han is Chewie, dating events to before 25 ABY, rather than Lowbacca...

    ... and we assume that LEGACY is set in the pre-reboot continuity in the first place. Ania could be the granddaughter of Ren and Rey. :p

    And to @Havoc123 and @Noash_Retrac - what do we know about the Hapans' distrust of Jedi, exactly? Does that extend to a hostility to all Force-sensitives? If the issue is more specific, perhaps Roan and the Imperial Knights could have be seen as an acceptable counterweight to the Alliance's lightsaber-wielding types...?

    @Vialco - I'd forgotten that. I took the name to be to do with the fact that you can "break the back of" a ship when you smash the keel, but the wider meaning makes sense as well!!

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
  23. srd5090

    srd5090 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 2, 2012
    Interesting thoughts Thrawn McEwok. Assuming by A/T you mean Anakin/Tahiri, in which case I'm not even going to fathom that possibility, due to the drama about a missed kiss during the mission to Myrkr, let alone a child being conceived.

    I concede Jag could have remarried and had force sensitive children, but I'm drawn to Occam's Razor in that if the end results is Jag having force sensitive descendants, the simplest explanation (in light of no new Legends content) is that comes from Jaina, his force sensitive Jedi wife and the last we know of. For Allana's children, I would even use the shadow child idea in support of Ania being from Allana's line. Allana herself was the subject of a hidden identity scheme.

    Crazy Vong cloning projects and the like would change the impression of 'descended from Han & Leia'. Not so much descended so much as derived from maybe?

    And still, for Sia knowing about Ania ahead of time or not, are we given any sort of impression in Legacy Volume 2 that it mattered? We don't need a panel of Sia saying she knows all about Ania for that to be the case. Ania herself in issue #16 says "I'm supposed to be some distant cousin of hers. Or something like that. I've never been clear on the details." That implies Sia potentially has Solo relations and Ania is aware of them to some degree.
     
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  24. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

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    The point of the "missed kiss" was that Tahiri should have gone with Anakin, to repeat the sort of force-multiplier effect we see between them at the end of Edge of Victory: Conquest. Not that that has anything to do with the topic to hand - a suggestion which Invictus presented in fairly ridiculous form, which I was treating with ironic seriousness to save me the trouble of pulling something out of my own hammerspace, simply as the most convenient example of a genuinely random "secret Solobrat" fan-theory in the ongoing discussion. :p

    I agree that there is a simplicity to drawing a straight line between the known points, but I do want to maintain a formal draw a distinction between what we know (Jaina married Jag; Jag also became the father of Fel II - whether by Jaina, another mother, or adoption - and Fel II, who is never shown to have been Force-sensitive, became the father of the Force-sensitive Roan) and what we'd have to assume or speculate (that Fel II was a son of Jaina); also, I'll remind you that only Roan's Force-sensitivity needs to be explained by someone higher on the Fel genealogical tree - as Elliah, Sia, Chalk, and possibly also Morghan descend from a Hapan Force-sensitive line which presumably originates with Allana and/or Zekk. Secret Hapan kids are also a thing, though - take the Zel sisters, for example, and while they're definitely secret Hapan royals of some sort, I'm not sure that their story about being the daughters of an illegitimate half-brother of Isolder is entirely true...

    I didn't want to get into the details of fictional Yuuzhan Vong mad science, but I think any kid with an appropriate genetic contribution could be legitimately counted as the child of the genetic-donor "parent", just like X-23 is classed as Logan's daughter in the X-Men continuity. :p

    Interesting quote, and one that's been missed so far in the discussion. There are several ways to roll this, though - Sia's Solo ancestry might come via Allana, or Ania's relationship to her might come by being descended from a Jaina/Zekk "shadow child", or the "cousinhood" could be a non-genetic one because Fel I was at least married to a Solo even if we can't be sure that she was Fel II's mom. I'd also note that this can be re-read "from a certain point of view", that Ania is supposed to be a "distant cousin" in the sense that this vague and deliberately unspecific relationship is the basis of a cover identity which she passes herself of under - who she's supposed to be in contrast with her real identity.

    That vagueness makes an interesting counterpoint to Sia's view that there is no specific place in the genealogy that she can actually be made to fit - when Ania says she's "never... clear on the details", that could be because she knows she can't be - i.e. providing (spurious!) details about who she's "supposed to be" would expose the fact that the "distant cousin" story is made up (I want to make a very confusing Odysseus reference at this point ;) ) and I'll also put to you that she's literally handwaving here, which makes me think she might be homaging Kenobi by glossing her words with a mind-trick, as well as by lying about the SkySolo genealogy.

    :p

    (She might, I suppose, be Sia's illegitimate half-sister, the daughter of Roan and that blonde Imperial knight who acts as his sparring partner)...

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  25. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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