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Lit At what point did Jacen change the future?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sinrebirth, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    My issue with Ania being a distant cousin or descedant there is that the generational gap between Jag and Jaina(and Fel II) and Legacy is not that large. Just about eighty years and in Star Wars people have kids in their thirties and forties after all.

    As for Zekk/Taryn or Trista Zel I'm sure they have descedants and Zekk more than likely married the former but why would Ania have the solo name? That doesn't make any sense especially in a matriarchal society like Hapes

    A Jaina/Zekk shadow child's descedant is possible and I could see something like that happening(out of drunkenness or a moment of emotional vulnerability or maybe some sort of manipulation/alien influence) and they both agreeing to keep the issue hush hush and send the child away. Though the times involved are sketchy.

    The context of her backstory is obscure and cloudy and not indicative of her being royalty or having come from it at least recently(both in her profession her attidude and those around her's knowledge) so that makes more outlandish ideas a little more likely.

    As for Anakin and Tahiri-quite frankly I'd sooner believe Leia cheated in the LOTF era given the timeline constraints but it isn't impossible and I was just listing possibilities no matter how unlikely.
     
  2. srd5090

    srd5090 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 2, 2012
    @Thrawn McEwok , Fell II isn't stated to be Force sensitive, but by the same measure I don't believe it is stated anywhere that he wasn't. The fact that the Imperial Knights served the Emperor so long as he served the light side of the Force seems to imply the Emperors had a habit of being Force sensitive, even prior to Roan. It could even be that Roan is spontaneously Force sensitive, but so much is pointing to the obvious answer that it may be fun to speculate, but in absence of new material the available information suggests that simple explanation.

    A Jaina/Zekk shadow child is just another bizarre explanation of secret-babies-no-one-knew-about-including-the-readers. Not much worth to take stock in.

    Can someone source me 'Siah's view' that is being mentioned? I don't recall the character actually questioning where Ania came from, but maybe someone has read the issues more recently.

    @Darth Invictus , I'm not sure there is actually a generational issue here. The relationship can be 2nd cousins, etc. Ania could have the Solo name (assuming no Zekk involvement) precisely because it is Matriarchal, Allana might pass her last name to her kids, and a male or female that keeps the name would give it to Ania.

    Ania being from a royal line fits perfectly with her story as shown in volume II, as it would fulfill the blue-blood-rejecting-structured-life trope. There is probably a better name for that trope, but there you go. Don't assume just because someone comes from royalty that they will act the stereotypical part and accept that life for themselves. I attribute this to potentially Ania's father first.
     
  3. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I seem to recall Tenel Ka didn't want to be queen but felt obligated/was pressured into the role. I find it extremely difficult to believe escaping one's royal responsibilities is so easy at least for Hapan monarchs.
     
  4. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Feb 17, 2004
    every time I see this thread on the list I think of this

     
  5. srd5090

    srd5090 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Of all extremely difficult things to accept (like infidelity and cloning theories), I'm not sure why someone succeeding in divorcing themselves from royalty is even a challenge to believe. I suggested Ania comes from a parent who wasn't first in line for a throne. Much easier to escape responsibility when you are not expected to take over the job.
     
  6. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    That would mean Ania has parents not far removed from the Hapan throne, the intrigues of Hapes, and the wealth of Hapes. Why would she end up in a junkyard even if say her mother didn't want to participate in the Hapan court intrigues/didn't want the responsibility/had a falling out or whatever.

    Ania is in a junkyard and has a modest life and modest expectations. If she is Hapan than she should be relatively wealthy and not have to work in a junkyard.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  7. srd5090

    srd5090 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 2, 2012
    Prior to owning the junkyard she was a prisoner in a Imperial/Sith prison, there for apparently murder. After getting out of the prison, she bought a junkyard. I don't know how to gauge the price of a junkyard but she evidently has the resources to do so and opted into that life.

    My take away from that is that it is the life she chose before the events of Legacy Volume II. Knowing how awful those Hapan court intrigues can be, it is not surprising someone might want out of it.

    EDIT: Typo fix.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  8. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

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    @DigitalMessiah - what point did I lose you at? :p

    @DarthInvictus - I don't think anyone's suggesting that Ania might be a Zekk/Trysta descendant, unless she's also an Allana descendant; my point is that Sia, Elliah, Chalk and Morghan - i.e. all the Force-sensitive "Fels" except Roan - could easily be Zekk/Taryn descendants (while Ania could be a J/Z descendant). I take your point that the fact that she can't immediately be equated with some missing cousin of the Fels is significant, but I still think that there's nothing in her behaviour that can't be explained by a repudiation of her past, if that makes any sense at all...

    (At the risk of veering into speculation, this adds to why I find the idea that she is Jaina Solo attractive - her attitude of repudiation suggests she is someone important, but there's no obvious "missing Solo" in Sia's generation to identify her with...)

    Let me know if you want me to discuss timeframe gaps? I tend to follow the internal chronology of the novels quite strictly, though I know that's not the only way to do this...

    @srd5090 - I don't think the "obvious answer" is in any sense the inevitable answer - there's a difference between "knowns" and "known unknowns" that I want to keep clear. You are, however, absolutely right that the junkyard implies nothing about her past or upbringing.

    I think Sia said she'd never heard of an Ania Solo. But I don't have the quote to hand, so I'd appreciate confirmation - and now I think about it, that sounds awfully like another Kenobi homage by the writers. :p

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  9. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I find it extremely hard to believe she is actually Jaina Solo-Jaina would be well over a century old at this point and human Jedi at most in the GFFA live to 200. I suppose it's possible either through some sort of disguise-either through force illusions or technology. But I doubt it highly
     
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  10. srd5090

    srd5090 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 2, 2012
    I decided last night to dig through each issue of Volume II looking for quotes and clues related to Ania's past:

    Issue #5

    Ania: "Stop it, those people don't have anything to do with me. Do I look like royalty? I work in a junkyard. I wish I could be someone like that -- look, I'm just not. That's history book stuff."

    Could be she wishes she could be like her extended family, but she just isn't that way. She wishes it was easier and she could be like the other Solos, but accepts she is not like them. It also points to the 'Solos' now being considered royalty, at least by Ania.

    -Later in the issue-

    Marasiah: "Solo? Who the hell is Ania Solo?"

    We don't see beyond that quote in the scene, it changes scene immediately after. Or maybe it was the end of the issue.

    Issue #6

    Ania: "You know, I'm not originally from the Carreras system. I ended up there almost by accident. Some people thought I'd come to a bad end. Some thought I was destined for greatness. They were both wrong. I bought myself a junkyard and ignored them. I don't believe in destiny."

    Some people = family members with expectations, perhaps? Buying a junkyard in an effort to help ignore 'them' would seem to point to 'them' not just being anybody.

    Bought a junkyard? Money from where? Inheritance?


    Issue #7

    Marasiah: "Did you find out anything about her? Is she who she thinks she is? [handed a data pad] Hmm, this is disturbing. The girls must be brought to me -- and not in luxury this time."

    Later in the series Ania and Marasiah meet several times, but Ania's past is not brought up at all. Whatever Sia might have learned about Ania's past, it isn't relevant to the current events and problems being dealt with. She does offer Ania a position as head of her guard, at the end of the series, so clearly she doesn't feel threatened by Ania.
     
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  11. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    That is some interesting evidence. However I don't think it proves any possibility decisively right or wrong.
     
  12. srd5090

    srd5090 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 2, 2012
    Considering nothing is going to be proved at this point, I'm merely advocating for explanations that are backed up by the source material. Without using too much tin-foil...
     
  13. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

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    May 9, 2000
    There are plenty of options - a malfunctioning hyperdrive could have flung her forward, she could have spent a lot of time as carbonite wall-art, or she could have been through a series of clone bodies like Palpatine and Bevel Lemelisk, to take just the three most obvious clichés...

    @srd5090 - thanks for the quotes. Agreed absolutely that the source material is key, though I'm less interested in backing up individual theories than in clarifying what we do and don't know.

    Sia clearly doesn't recognize Ania's name, which confirms what should have been obvious to us, that there is no known "Ania Solo" in the Fel/Hapan genealogy. But Sia's later actions are hard to read - we do know that she finds something "disturbing" in information that her people have been able to find, but is this to do with genealogical documents, or genetic analysis, or merely to do with Ania's criminal record, or her lack of a real backstory? And does she resolve her concerns in an off-screen meeting, or is she still covertly trying to figure things out at the end of vol. 2? Lots of options...

    The exchange between Ania and AG-37 in #5 is interesting - this confirms something else we all suspected, namely that Sia is a SkySolo, whether through Fel II or Elliah or both; we also learn that Ania is not simply unwilling to inhabit the same heroic space as the "royalty" represented by Sia and Chalk (the lightsaber-wielding side of the family, hold that thought), but sees herself as actively incapable of doing so, and does not believe she has the ability to defeat a Sith...

    However, as Sauk is within earshot, Ania and AG-37 could be talking obliquely to conceal information they don't want to share with him - indeed, there's a strong hint they're doing exactly that, because as we learn in #6, "I work in a junkyard" is not a reference to her background, but rather to a choice she made, with AG-37's cooperation, which involved rejecting earlier expectations for who she should be; placing the two scenes together, her choice seems to be related to a sense of incapacity on Ania's part when it comes to Jedi heroics, and perhaps a sense of failure - is she almost crying when she looks towards the lightsaber, or is that just me overreading the line-art and shading in the corner of her eye...?

    Regardless, that pair of panels is a lovely bit of visual storytelling - and part of a wider narrative; AG-37 has just raised the example of Han, providing a Solo example of heroism as opposed to a Jedi one, and although Ania pick ups the lightsaber (symbolism!), she doesn't try to use the Jedi weapon herself, solving the problem instead with a starfighter, a blaster pistol, and someone else who she can pass the lightsaber on to... very Solo.

    So, to make explicit the unspoken question raised by all this - does she lack the usual SkySolo Force-strength, or does she just have a problematic relationship with that part of herself? The second option seems, intrinsically, the most likely one, given that all the other SkySolos have strong Force abilities. That's the Ortolan in the room in this discussion with AG-37, and the thing she really doesn't want to talk about in front of Sauk - or possibly even open up about with AG-37 even though he knows...

    In short, I think the subtext hints that Ania Solo has failed in her past as a lightsaber-wielding hero... either due to a comparably limited Force-sensitivity for a SkySolo, or (I suspect more likely) because of an estrangement from the Force caused by past events, she feels completely incapable of even handling a mid-level Sith like Wredd, and has renounced Jedi heroism in favour of being a "nobody"...

    Ania: "I work in a junkyard. I wish I could be someone like that -- look, I'm just not. That's history book stuff." = I may have been someone like that once, but I can't be any more.

    AG-37: "I've been around a long time. It's not history when you're there. Han Solo wasn't royalty. He was a smuggler." = I know who you used to be, even if we're mugging for the benefit of the dazed Mon Cal in the corner. You know who you were too. And you know that there's a tradition of heroism in your family has nothing to do with the Force and lightsabers and shiny light-side adherence to law and order.

    Ania: "But --" = I so don't want to hear this. [tbh, she sounds like she's already starting to cry here].

    AG-37: "No, Listen." (etc.) = You may not want to be a Jedi, you may not even be capable of being a Jedi, but you're still a Solo, and you have everything you need to be a hero. Go get 'em, sweetheart.

    (In pursuit of my own pet theory, I'll note a few things - the implications that she's a failed Force-and-lightsaber hero are in one way odd, because that would imply she was trained, narrowing her background hat ought to make her readily identifiable to Sia; and her use of the phrase "history book stuff" is odd, because this reference - looking back to the past Jedi heroism which is her own inheritance, rather than across to Sia and that contrasting lineage - would seem to be a reference to her own past before her failings, which places that past a lot earlier than her apparent age would suggest - that, and the whole fact AG-37 went and found her because of a promise to Han, who he talks about to her in their private moment here, too)...

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
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  14. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

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    Jaina in Legacy = Force doppelganger projected to the future
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  15. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    The disturbing information could just easily be some sort of clone shenanigan or conspiracy or some sort of infidelity amongst Sia's ancestors(which would be disturbing at least to her). But the fact Marasiah finds strange or disturbing information means something about her backstory is odd or off.
     
  16. srd5090

    srd5090 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 2, 2012
    I'm not sure what else there is to say on Ania's history. I am amused at the lengths some folks will go in finding reasons to entertain notions of clones and infidelity.

    The disturbing line, to me, sounded like maybe this Solo was indeed off Sia's radar and it was disturbing she didn't have a better gauge of her distant relatives. Maybe. I suppose it is a bit frustrating we will never get a real answer, excepting maybe if one of the writers come on here and spilled the beans or gave a definitive explanation.

    I don't believe in the omnipotence of Imperial intelligence in knowing every Solo that every existed ever, including those living on the Fringe. @Thrawn McEwok you seem to be of the mind Marasiah should know about all those relatives, but I don't think we have sufficient evidence to assume she actually did. At least until that datapad potentially cleared some things up.
     
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  17. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Marasiah is an imperial princess with Hapan blood most likely. I imagine part of her education would include her ancestry, and family tree. So her lack of knowledge regarding Ania is quite telling.

    She doesn't say "oh that must be the child of my second cousin on my mother's side that didn't like Hapan court politics and wanted a simpler life"-if something like that were the case Marasiah ought to be aware of it.
     
  18. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    I think its something we should really ask the writers... it's becoming a repetitive that we go over the same points.
     
  19. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Well I don't know their emails. If anyone wishes to contact them feel free. I'd be curious as to what they had planned.
     
  20. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

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    Feb 18, 2005
    Hardman and Bechko both have Twitter accounts, if that helps anyone.
     
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  21. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I don't have a Twitter account-but if anyone wishes to contact them and inquire about their plans-they should feel free to do so
     
  22. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

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    I'd be really interested to know if Hardman and Bechko had anything specific in mind, though given the fact that LFL needed to keep options open for the ongoing novels, I wouldn't be completely surprised if their approach was relatively flexible...

    She went for a flow-walk and got stuck? :p

    A very good point. Whatever the issue is, something is up - something beyond the vague fact that there's a stray Solo who she can't place on the family genealogy.

    The point is that any descendant of Fel I's wife or Crown Princess Allana Djo is of immediate relevance for Sia personally and for the Empire politically. That's especially true if Fel II is Jaina's kid. These things should be known about. Heck, Elliah and her brother could be Allana's own kids. The only way to have "stray Solos" who were not of dynastic significance would be if Jaina dropped off the radar at some point - unless one of the Solobrats managed to produce a kid off-camera before Crucible, which I suspect you like even less as an idea.

    One other possibility is that she's Chalk's daughter - perhaps illegitimate; if he's Allana's son, that could make her the "Solo heiress" in conventional social terms (Han's eldest son's only child's eldest son's only child), but would take her out of the Imperial line of succession completely and make her relatively unimportant from the Hapan POV, and given that she's in a Sith-Imperial prison until 137 ABY, would also explain his betrayal of Roan somewhat better.

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  23. srd5090

    srd5090 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 2, 2012
    I'm saying that in the face of that relevance, there are things that could be unknown by the Fel Empire. They are not a perfect apparatus. Elliah could be Allana's child sure, or she may not be. That said, why is it hard to believe one of Allana's children dropped off the radar and is the parent of Ania? That has been my contention so far. It doesn't require extra Solobrat children. It doesn't require Jaina drop off the radar. It doesn't require a character like Chalk metamorphing into an even more important character. All it requires is one of Allana's children to go off the radar (may not even need to do that) and have a kid somewhere. Unless the Fel Empire has cams attached to genitals, I suspect stuff could slip through the cracks. Throw in any sort of shadow child/hidden identity scheme we have already seen in Legends up to this point and it is pretty well plausible.
     
  24. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    It's possible but if Allana became a Jedi and Hapan Queen? I'd say all her children must have been accounted for-if for no other reason than to account for the line of Hapan succession. A stray child somewhere could have big political implications and so would be of interest to the Hapans, imperials and anyone else of interest.
     
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  25. srd5090

    srd5090 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 2, 2012
    Being of interest doesn't automatically mean they become known. If Allana child A slips away and goes to remote planet B for nine months with love interest C, there will be a baby that isn't plastered all over the holonet. The point is, those interested parties may not know a stray child exists.

    Allana herself died 'publicly', then lived semi-incognito with the Solos. Luke Skywalker got to keep his last name and lived on Tatooine, under the radar of the Empire until he blew up the Death Star. There is precedent here.