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Lit At what point did Jacen change the future?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sinrebirth, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Well we know Allana is going to be trained as a Jedi. At least at the end of FOTJ and she will likely become queen of Hapes. And she is ten at the end of FOTJ.

    So assuming she spends 10 to 15 years as a Jedi and reaches Knighthood by the time she is 30. She will be under constant supervision until then. Assuming she becomes Queen upon her mother's death, retirement, or political resignation-probably another decade or two-she'd be in her forties or late thirties. A child had at this point(say with a lover while as a Jedi apprentice) would be possible I suppose. Though of interest to the Hapans.

    Anyway Allana's trajectory in life doesn't lead well to having secret love childs-after all she is the Jedi Queen Jacen foresaw the holding the balance on the white throne.

    Such a woman probably would have a busy enough life.
     
  2. srd5090

    srd5090 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 2, 2012
    Yes, quite a busy life. One that does not eliminate the potential for multiple children, who all have agency of their own. I've said it multiple times already so I'm not sure saying it again will help clarify my point any more, but I have been suggesting Ania is Allana's grandchild. And she could have quite a few grandchildren for that matter. Say Allana has two children. One can potentially become Monarch of Hapes, the other has more room to screw off. More than two and the avenue widens. One of those kids grows up a bit and has their own child more or less off the radar. Maybe that son/daughter of Allana has been roaming the Outer Rim, maybe just living a modest life far from prying eyes.

    Being of interest to various political entities means little if one truly wants to lose themselves in a galaxy filled with trillions/quadrillions of inhabitants.
     
  3. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I suppose it's possible if a little boring.
     
  4. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

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    May 9, 2000
    As @Darth Invictus says, keeping track of the genealogy is vitally important where executive power is hereditary, and there's a big difference between a ruling dynasty and their security apparatus keeping a stray kid secret, and them actually losing track of a line of descent. Those who needed to know about Allana and Luke certainly did so, and were actively taking measues to keep them hidden. That's a different scenario. And the fact that people aren't automatically connecting Ania to a known "rogue cousin" also makes this idea seem less likely to me.

    That said, I do actually agree with @srd5090 that a dynastically junior child of Allana is the best option if we're looking to attach Ania to the known Felpire/Hapan characters - but as I already said, I think Chalk could plausibly be the parent in question, and that I suspect is where we differ?

    That said, we can come at this from the opposite angle, as well. One person who does know about Ania is AG-37 - for reasons apparently connected to a century-old promise to Han, he shows up to rescue her. Whether he was actually involved in facilitating her escape from the prison-camp is unclear, but the fact he arrived in-system with transport to pick her up implies that he was aware of what was going on. AG-37's Han-era knowledge seems to enable him to do things that Sia and the "royalty" of the Felpire and Hapes aren't even aware need doing, and this IMHO ought to be part of the explanation of who Ania is.

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
  5. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 22, 2005
    At this point, I'm just thinking Allana went the Jango Fett route. Her romantic life wasn't going well, but she wanted a son. She asked some Kaminoans to clone her but replace the X gene with the Fett Y gene, to get a "clone" that she raised as her son (like Jango and Boba).
     
  6. srd5090

    srd5090 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 2, 2012
    If Ania was in line for the Fel Empire, I could see where her importance would matter more. I've been leaning on the idea she is more related to the Hapan Throne and even then is not an immediate candidate for said throne. I will give you this to ponder. We have not been given reason to believe Sia didn't actually connect Ania to said 'rogueish cousin'. Only that at first name mention Sia didn't know who she was, or didn't recognize the name. The onus of knowing every single possible extended familiar member should not fall to Sia at the drop of a hat. That said, it could very well be that the datapad she is handed contains information of that sort. So not immediately off the top of Sia's head, but perhaps recorded somewhere in the Empire's knowledge base. In any case, she seems satisfied by what she reads, if the rest of the series is any indication. She stops asking about Ania's past afterwards.
     
  7. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Did the authors of Legacy 2 really even have a backstory in mind?
     
  8. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    Make a twitter account and ask them yourself. I occasionally get my questions answered by Pablo Hidalgo and Leland Chee.
     
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  9. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 5, 2017
    I figure there was never one exact moment that Jacen changed the future. It's been a while since I read the two series, but I always thought that Jacen's plan was to unite all the disparate factions of the galaxy together by manufacturing a foe for them all to fight and defeat, with the militarists and the warmongers of the galaxy now humiliated and broken. He made himself that foe, taking on that role, at first trying to have it be just that, but quickly getting lost in it as he started mainlining evil. He was trying to make a new world where his vision couldn't possibly happen, rather then picking setpieces to change.
     
  10. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Unless of course Caedus won the war and crushed all his enemies. Then he could reforge the Galaxy to his will.

    An example is the magnificent fanfic Star Wars Only Right.
     
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  11. Thrawn McEwok

    Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare star 6 VIP

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    May 9, 2000
    In case Sinre is still reading this thing, my answer to the question in the title is "when he flow-walked to Sernpidal and pretended to be the mayor". :p

    @sidv88 - true, but insofar as Master Armourer Chalk might be her son, I'm not sure how that gets us close to identifying Ania...? [face_thinking]

    @srd5090 - Where we disagree is that I think "The onus of knowing every single possible extended familiar member" should be natural to Sia - at least insofar as the relatively limited number of descendants of Fel I and Allana go. I also feel that however much we can re-read that scene with Ania and AG-36 in #5, the implication is that she isn't from the "royalty" branch, which IMHO makes descent from either Allana or Fel I comparatively unlikely, leaving Jaina and her potential for non-Fel descendants as our only "known unknown".

    @Darth Invictus - well, has someone asked?

    @Noash_Retrac - this certainly makes sense, but I was hoping someone with an active fanboy twitter account would take the initiative. :p

    @comradepitrovsky - someone actually answering Sinre's original question! :D

    I'm not sure whether Jacen was quite that scheming, but if you have supporting evidence, I'd be intrigued. Personally, I think Jacen's idea of unity and peace - and the ideas of unity and peace sponsored by the Alliance government and Grand Master Skywalker - were flawed from the start.

    - The Imperial Ewok
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
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  12. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
  13. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    That’s my view of it, to be fair.

    He didn’t entirely succeed, if he intended to break Centrist philosophies - Daala after all, and even accepting the manipulations of High Lord Workan and the Lecersen gang.


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  14. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 5, 2017
    Well, yeah, of course they were flawed, of course they couldn't succeed. You can't stab the problem of evil, nor force choke human nature.
     
  15. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    There is the example of Danielle Kieran

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Danielle_Kieran

    Who is implied to quite possibly be Han's illegitimate child. She seemed to believe she was. And given Han's character prior to ANH it's not impossible.

    So the idea of the solos(or one of them at least) having a bastard(the historical term not the insult) child running around isn't impossible.
     
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  16. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    Urgh, for the last ****in' time! The writers have said Ania Solo is the descendant of Han AND Leia! You get it! HAN AND LEIA!
     
  17. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Ben Solo’s descendant?


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  18. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 3, 2013
    The only reason I've really bothered to ever click on this thread is to see how long it would take you to turn it into a One Canon thing.
     
  19. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Oh it already was a One Canon thing.

    I’m more inclined to a point of divergence between the complete continuity and the irreconcilable deaths of Luke and Han to be caused by Jacen, who actually changed time (ostensibly) between 29 ABY and 41 ABY.

    The last point of divergence otherwise was probably 30,000 BBY, though new information suggests it might have been circa 12,000 BBY, when Abeloth last escaped.


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  20. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I was using Danielle Kieran as an example of possible infedility and bastard children. Han and Leia maybe not-unless you don't take that statement at face value.

    A secret child of any of the solo children or their immediate progeny is still a descedant of Han and Leia
     
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  21. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    I have long since come to the opinion reading Marasiah Fel is that she is a naive idiot.

    Besides, why would the Hapans reveal their family trees to anyone, even members of their own family? No one outside of Tenel Ka knew she had cousins until they showed up and I doubt she knew until her reign began.

    Ania Solo comes from either Jacen or Jaina's line not Anakin not Han's illegitimate child not Leia's illegitimate child. Unless Han and Leia had another child after 45 ABY, which while possible is doubtful. Ania Solo turned her back on her family, its pretty clear and Sia Fel is an idiot.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2018
  22. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    I'm doubtful of Marasiah's naïveté. Her own mother was likely Hapan and so her education should have included her mother's ancestry. And naive women don't last long in her position.

    As for Tenel Ka's cousins-they were either Isolder's siblings children or her mother's so they obviously knew and I imagine her immediate advisors knew-Hapan politics is treacherous after all and Tenel Ka wouldn't want the nobility supporting hostile claimants or putting her family even extended family at risk.

    Yes-the likelihood of her being a descedant of Jacen or Jaina is almost guaranteed. However evidence and various gaps should be taken into account-and speculating about these things is fun in its own right.
     
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  23. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    Sinre Edit: Absolutely not.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2018
  24. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Y’know, I really do like the idea of Ania being descended from Ben.

    One idea that I’ve been dabbling with is the concept that the interruption of the Sequel Trilogy doesn’t mean pre-existing elements in either universe are moot.

    The Empire of the Hand was still smashed by someone in the Unknown Regions at the end of the day; Kesh, still isolated from the galaxy; the One Sith were still at large; Snoke and his First Order were still in hiding; Ben Solo is still a child estranged from his family.

    And so on.

    If you choose to One Canon events, you invite the eventuality of plot bunnies involving the ST cast and the Sith threats yet to come, or the Legends cast and the First Order.


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  25. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Kesh's isolation is guaranteed to end especially if Vestara ever ended up marrying Ben. And if not that sooner or later it would be found now that the Jedi, GA, one Sith, and everyone else was aware of its existence if not its location.

    The empire of the hand was most definitely absorbed by the Chiss ascendancy and IR. The EotH(as shorthand) was very much a Chiss-Imperial Hybrid state. As Chiss-Imperial relations warmed(we know the Chiss aided the empire to some extent in the Sith-Imperial War) the purpose of the empire of the hand would begin to fade and the bridge it created between the empire and Chiss would no longer be necessary.

    As for Ben Solo and Ania-we'll have to wait and see Episode IX for any potential children or children or possibilities of children.
     
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