At what point did Vader decide to turn back?

Conflicted in ROTJ, at their meeting and throughout the duel, but I don't think he decides to completely turn around until luke is being friedand saying "father please". While his head is going back and forth..I think it's clear he's deciding.

 

Vader had contemplated overthrowing the Emperor after he turned to the dark side. However, when he decided to save Luke, he was no longer acting on his selfish ambitions. Vader had came back to the good side and simply wanted to save Luke's life, even at the expense of his own. Quotes from Lucas make it clear that Vader killed the Emperor because of his compassion for Luke, not because he wanted to fulfill his former lust for power.

On page 221 in The Making of Revenge of the Sith, George Lucas says:
The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

In the Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000, Lucas said:
It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it?s only in the last act?when he throws his sword down and says, ?I?m not going to fight this??that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It?s only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It?s not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart.

These quotes make it clear that Vader did indeed turn back to the good side and redeem himself, and that he did not kill the Emperor in an attempt to seize power.

 

Here is my view...

In ESB, Luke is Vader's hope, because he doesn't have the power to kill Sidious anymore. His intentions are evil at that point. He wants to turn Luke so they could destroy Sidious together and then, Vader would rule with his son as an apprentice.

By ROTJ, Vader is conflicted more than ever. Luke feels the good in him, Vader feels it too! But he just can't let go of the darkside.

He is still trying to turn Luke to the darkside, so Luke could join him to kill Sidious. He's trying hard to turn Luke, even helping the Emperor... I think he is already caring for him, but he doesn't want to let go his power trip.

Then he learns about Luke's sister. At that point, either he wants to use Leia to make Luke go wild (to turn him) or he really want to make Leia join him. Anyway, Luke really lose it. Vader is suprised at the intensity of Luke's anger. He's totally out of control.

But Luke spares him. He refuses to kill him, and he face the Emperor. Vader realise how much his son loves him, how much he has compassion for him, and how strong he is to resist the darkside. He now fully realises the errors and the bad choices he made in his life because Luke SHOWS HIM by his own behavior.

Now Anakin is taking over Vader. It can't happen in an instant, but when it finally did, nothing in the Galaxy could have saved Sidious.

=)

EDIT : farrelg, you beat me to it!

 

Anakin did not kill the Emperor out of any Sith lust for power. Anakin knows that if he kills Palpy, (1) he is going to die, and (2) hopefully, the order of Sith will die. Kinda stupid for Vader to make a power grab when he knows he's going to die in the process, isn't it????

EDIT: The post about Luke's statement "I am a Jedi, like my father before me," brings a thought to mind. If GL goes on one of his usual reworking binges before releasing the box set, perhaps he could clear things up. I can imagine something along the lines of Palpatine shouting to Vader about loyalty to his master, to which Anakin would reply with something along the lines of "you are not my master, I am a Jedi." Might be too corny if not done JUST right, though.

 

Except for the lightning, why would he die? He wouldn't, so that's not a concern.

As for not killing him out of a lust for power, I don't see how you can prove that. It can be an opinion, but the movie no longer supports your claim.

 

i've always felt that the turn began in ESB just after he fights Luke for the
first time. I think his turn bad and back to good again were gradual, that
there is not just one moment when he instantly decides, ok, here we go.
His decisions follow a certain logic.

For example, Vader doesn't kill a single Fleet officer after he confronts
Luke on Bespin. It was probably a shock to himself to admit it.He killed Adm.
Ozzle without a second thought before Bespin. Besides, Ozzle was a clumsy as he was stupid.


The decisions he made gradually led up to the climactic moment when he threw Palps
down the shaft. I think it makes it much more organic and believable
than to think he arbitrarily swtiched back and forth on mere moment's notice.

 

DS615 posted:
Except for the lightning, why would he die? He wouldn't, so that's not a concern.
As for not killing him out of a lust for power, I don't see how you can prove that. It can be an opinion, but the movie no longer supports your claim.

I believe Vader knew that the lightning would mortally wound him, since Lucas said in the first quote from my previous post that Vader decides to throw away his life the moment he saves Luke. And I think the film, even as it stands now, does indicate that Vader killed the Emperor because he didn't want to see Luke die. Vader's dialouge hasn't been changed. He still asks to see Luke with his own eyes, and tells Luke that he was right about there still being good in him. If the last thing Vader wants to do before his death is look at his son, be reconciled with him, and acknowledge that there is good in himself, it seems that he did truly care about Luke and destroyed the Emperor for his son's sake. Lucas' quotes in my previous post also tell us what Vader's motives for killing the Emperor were: saving Luke out of compassion. And the book that the quote came from was published this year, so it seems that Lucas has not changed what Vader's motivation for saving Luke was. It is still because he allowed the goodness that was buried deep inside to resurface.

 

Yeah he was confliceted for awhile but I still think the major decision is still being made as his head is turning.

 

Yeah he knew that lightening would short out his suit, he was not trying to seize control of the empire, his son clearly wasn't turning so what would be point of him killing sidious for control of the empire, it had no future and he couldn't battle luke. He saw his son willing to die to remain good and the gamble he took to prove what was left of his father. He was well aware of his death and he faced it like a jedi finally accepting it and killing his fear of it, and in the act of selflessness and compassionate love, regains his goodness.

On a side note- wasn't it cool that his life as a jedi, becoming a jedi, was based on a gamble by qui-gon that he would win that race, and his returning to that jedi state was based on a much bigger gamble by luke.

 

Ta failte romhat!

 

Wow! You guys make a lot of sense in your discussion.I think Anakin had every intention of doing away with Darth Sidious/Palpatine.He did mention it to Padme.And that chance came when Palpatine was frying Luke,his link to Padme.What was running through his head was like.'what is he doing?That's my son he's trying to kill.mine and Padme's.You're going down!(literally,he threw the emperor down the shaft,remember?)

 

This may get refuted, but I believe it's absolutely true.
Inside the heart of everyone who has made the wrong choices in life, lies within a measurable amount of regret. I firmly believe that Anakin had been looking for a way out ever since he became Darth Vader. He realized all to late they he had been duped. But that is the lie of all temptation, that the end result is what we want, when the end result usually is never what you thought it would be. I think partly Vader does want to overthrow the Emperor, but I believe that since he still retains some of his goodness that he secretely regrets his actions and wishes for salvation.

 

Just to throw my 2 cents (Canadian currency) in on that particular topic...I think the Jedi can choose to appear in any form they want at any given time. Obi-Wan and Yoda appeared "old" simply because that is how Luke had known them, and so that is how they appear to him, so that he can recognize them of course. As for Anakin, Luke never knew him either way, and I guess Anakin wanted to appear to Luke as he was when he truly was a Jedi.

If Obi-Wan had ever wanted to appear to someone who'd known him when he was younger, then that his how he would appear to them.