Atheism 3.0

It's hard to deny the appeal of some supernatural beliefs. The popularity of movies like Ghost and The Sixth Sense demonstrates the need for basic wish fulfillment fantasies about the possibility of an afterlife.

Maybe it is possible to believe in something for no better reason than you want it to be true... Damn I'm hot.

 

Are you familiar with Dr. Ian Stevenson, Jabba? I'm not entirely closed off to what you would probably call "supernatural." My main view is that there is no intelligent, anthropomorphic God out there. I'm more willing to believe in things that don't necessarily require the existence of a god.

 

No, never heard of him, but he must have been an interesting guy. The idea of an afterlife doesn't seem to hold up well under scrutiny, for one thing because there's no way to scrutinize it, Dr. Stevenson notwithstanding.

Reading the Washington Post obituary of Dr. Stevenson, my heart went out to him. He literally interviewed hundreds and hundreds of two-to-four year olds speaking in languages he did not speak. What. A. Job.

Imagine being an investigator in a large criminal case in which your primary job was to collect the sworn testimony of hundreds of two year olds.

 

Well, he did some pretty rigorous investigations of reincarnation over the last several decades of his life. It turned into his life's work. He wrote a summation of sorts, which was this book. I think it's important to avoid using reasoning like "this can't be possible because it isn't possible," which isn't scientific and isn't any less circular than using the Bible to prove the Bible.

So far as I've seen, his work is by far the most scientific in nature (and, like any good scientist, he did not draw any final conclusions), and is one of the few areas that I'm willing to take more seriously when it comes to the supernatural.

 

Perhaps a bit late, but:

Man, that is one beautiful speech. I certainly see your 'what we need is a peacemaker' point. But people like this only really rise to the occasion in times of crisis, and I don't think there's really a crisis here. Is there?

Really? I think it's one of the most important things in the world. It defines your morality, your mortality, your individuality. It's nothing less than the ultimate search for truth.

Quix - in your list, I'm missing my own orientation:
We don't know if we can know, and we don't know if there's anything trancendent.
What am I?

 

We don't know if we can know, and we don't know if there's anything trancendent.
What am I?

Donald Rumsfeld?

 

edited

Certainly there has been little in the way of convincing me of a lack of tolerance and respect for religion. It would be great if there was some reassurance of there being no threat of atheist activism, sadly thus far it has to be said there is little wonder atheists are feared and hated.

Nancy, here's the thing. This is the atheism thread. You can ask questions about atheism and interact with others here, but you are not going to be allowed to come in and force anyone to justify their own beliefs.

The issue isn't with what you post, but how you post it. When you post in an accusatory manner, it forces everyone to immediately put up their defenses.

Everyone knows what your position is. This is your chance to back up. Start this new thread off by observing the discussion and realizing that their are people behind the posts here.

 

My big fear is another holocaust and sincerely believe the level of hatred there is at religion could be inching towards that conclusion

Nancy, are you aware that the Nazis were not atheists? By and large, they believed in one form of religion or another.

I also once again wonder if you're aware of just how much of a minority atheists are in the world. People who actively believe there is no God make up no more than 5-10% of the world's population, if that. This is not the number necessary to carry out what you fear.

 

I also once again wonder if you're aware of just how much of a minority atheists are in the world. People who actively believe there is no God make up no more than 5-10% of the world's population, if that. This is not the number necessary to carry out what you fear.

And from that pool of atheists, the anti-theist component represents an even smaller proportion. We are talking a minority of a minority. Just because people buy Dawkins' books, doesn't mean they necessarily agree and if they do agree, it doesn't mean there is a global armed anti-theist militia forming.

 

When I read about efforts for the destruction of theism I am worried. Just how literally are we to take that?

 

What have you read? As already stated, the lunatic fringe does not necessarily reflect the views of all atheists.

 

Nancy, just because someone or some people state that they want to make something happen does not mean that said person or people have the means to carry it out.

 

Ah, but why does theism merit "tolerance" above and beyond the tolerance of any other idea?

Here I side squarely with Dawkins. Religion has long enjoyed a "protective shield" of almost ridiculous levels of "respect". Any idea should be "respected" because it is "religious". That is pretty absurd. This has to stop.

I mean, if someone comes with a patently absurd mathematical, chemical, socio-economic, political etc. idea, people won't hesitate to argue the point. If there is faulty logic, it is pointed out. If it's founded on shaky evidence, this is pointed out. If there are contradictions, this is pointed out, and so on.

But for some reason when the topic is religion this magical sheild decends and it is suddenly "rude" to question that idea in the same way that you would question any other idea on the face of the planet.

Now. That said.

For those that want their religion as a "hugging blanket", I do not plan to tear it away.

Heck, yesterday Jehovas Witnesses were here. I let them talk and drop their pamphlet (heck, I even read the pamphlet in it's entirety!).

What got them off the hook (besides the fact that I really didn't have time or energy to get into any form of argument)? Honestly - their wording. In almost every instance they said "If god exists, then ... ".

They never said "Because God exists..." or similar. Because that wording would have rubbed me the wrong way.

And HAD they said something like that, and HAD they not been two sweet old ladies, and if I WASN'T trying to enjoy my vacation, then I might actually have argued.

HAD they been a preacher starting to yell at me that I was going to Hell, well, then my full wrath would be unleached. IF I wasn't trying to enjoy my vacation, that is.


Anyway, my anecdote aside, do you agree?

Do you agree that religious ideas enjoys a totally unwarranted level of "respect"?

Do you agree that we should try to level the playing field somewhat? I'm not saying "go out and be rude", I'm just saying "be as 'rude' (or polite) as you would be with any other idea presented to you".

I mean, if a spokesperson for some totally bizzare and idiotic economic system came up to me and said "excuse me, we have this idea and I have this pamphlet, you don't need to take it but I would like you to read it", I would treat him as I treated my two sweet Jehova ladies.

If the same person was on the street trying to push his crap on me as factually great stuff and condemning my economic system, I would approach the person much differently.



/Z

 

Nancyallen, since Mr44 assured us that further provocation on your part would be met with decisive action, I have PM'd him to point out that you are accusing atheists of working towards genocidal acts towards theists. Have a pleasant evening.

 

see above

More later.

 

But, and I already rue saying this before I've even posted it, your stated concerns are essentially meritless and without basis in fact. As KK would say, you need some kind of actual evidence to demonstrate that the concerns you've posted are real. Otherwise, it's little more than trolling in my book. Marching through a thread about atheism and posting about how you fear a holocaust on believers by atheists, without posting any evidence for it, (while simultaneously ignoring two members who pointed out large holes in this idea) can bring nothing good to this discussion.

So, I think we'd all like to hear about some actual basis in fact, some real evidence, for your concerns. And for you to be open to the idea that your concerns may just be groundless. Would you be okay with the idea that atheists are generally okay, or do you need atheists to, in effect, be your enemies?

I note, though, that this discussion has already begun its possibly inevitable turn into revolving around Nancy, rather than what I posted at the beginning of the thread. That's the sort of thing that will drive off people from posting here. Not much point in getting into a discussion that's mostly locked into place between a few people and one subject.

 

This is not the time to post such accusations.

Stay on topic, and when the rest of the thread is ready and willing, you can begin to explore this aspect.

 

Nancy, whether you like it or not, want to or not, you're going to need to provide more mainstream evidence for what you have proposed to be reality. Otherwise, you're not going to last here.

To anyone out there who hasn't answered my question in the first post, please feel free to do so. I'd like to keep at least sort of on target here, at least initially. It'll also give something to fall back on at a later date.

 

MasterZap-I know exactly what you mean. Every now and then a nice old couple come around handing out pamphlets. I've always wanted to invite them in and start a good natured debate, but they are just so nice that i just listen to their speech, accept their flyer and wave them on their way.

I have a great respect for the Jehovas Witnesses in my neighborhood because they are always so nice to everyone, waving at cars as they walk their route. And even when I tell them I am athiest they never accuse me or anything, they just tell me that they have found many answers in the bible and say that if I ever feel like reinspecting my beliefs to give them a call. They dont get defensive or anything. Really nice people.

Nancy-How do you go from reading that article which seems to state in the article that athiesm isnt responsible for the athiest atrocities, to saying that you fear for a holocaust on religion. I'm just curious on your thought process to get from one to the other.

 

I think that Atheism is simply not believing in a higher power. I believe that I am an atheist, though most of my friends are Catholic/Christian and I have no problem with that and they have no problem with me not believing in God.

 

Richard Dawkins isn't the topic right now. Observe the rest of the posts and use them as a basis for the tone the thread has.

 

I give up.

Thank you, Star Rocker. I definitely appreciate your post, and Bob as well.

 

I'd like to start us off by asking people what their initial impressions of atheism are, and what they think of when they see or talk about it.

Well, "atheism" is a label. It denotes that a person does not believe in God, does not believe that God exists. It hasn't quite lost all real meaning yet and has not entered the lexicon as a pejorative term (like 'fascist') but I think it will one day.

Personally, I don't obsess about labels or categories or status. I don't think of myself as a liberal or neo-conservative or a marxist or a theist or an atheist or an agnostic. Of course I may view the world in such a way as might attract such labels, but the label does not define me.

Labels denote an "agenda". It is very easy to say that a person is an atheist and let that term define their whole personality and their whole being. I think this is dangerous and should be avoided at all costs.

I don't believe in God. There is no agenda beyond that simple fact.

I give up

Told you so

 

Your welcome.

Bob, I realize it's difficult, but don't give in to the defensiveness. Stay on topic.


EDIT: LOH- I agree. I hate labels because there is always a first impression that people get when they hear a label. Muh like people always have animage in mind when someone says they are republican or democrat, yadda yadda yadda. While I may be a republican, i still hold my own beliefs about things but, I still see it. Same with athiest/agnostic. You still get that taken aback "Oh."

 

I couldn't find anything on atheists.net that discussed the issue of atheists who are intolerant of religion, so if what I have put up so far isn't good enough as evidence what would be?