Atheism discussion

Fireman, if you weren't raised in a christian home and you didn't have a christian friends, YOU WOULD NOT BE A CHRISTIAN. That's because of your environment. Whether you've rebelled or not or you're completely ignorant of other explanations or not is completely irrelevant. You can't suddenly become something when you have no concept of what it is, for example:

Your environment and the traits nature (or God in your case) gave you led you to the path from which you've now taken. Someone raised in a christian household in a christian society doesn't all of a sudden become a Muslim (generally speaking.

That's not a shot at you by the way, some people act like when I say that it means they're mindless sheep, that's not the case. I am who I am because of my environment and the traits given to me by nature. If you think about it for a second it's only common sense. You can't suddenly become a person that you have no idea how to become. What I mean by that is if you're raised a Christian and the ONLY thing you know is Christianity, you're going to be a christian. Now in today's society that would be an impossible circumstance considering that's not the ONLY thing we know, but I hope you get the gist of what I'm saying.

 

My mom was christian and I wasn't. I didn't believe in God and denied his existence. Only recently I started believing in God.

 

Yeah, I hear ya, Cyprus. However...

You can't suddenly become a person that you have no idea how to become.

This is true. But who's to say I wouldn't have been introduced to the Christian God in another environment? I guess that's not what you're arguing, but I just had to say it anyway.

I probably should have taken a look over your post a little more, all I caught was "Fireman is a Christian because he was raised that way", and I jumpmed on it. Guess it's just a misunderstanding.

 

Let's not everyone declare that everyone else disagrees with ourselves because of mental illness...

 

Another thing I dislike about Christianity is that you have to believe in God for eternal life. This is basically God saying you have no choice but to believe in me or you will go to hell. I will provide little evidence of my existance along with my son and expect you to believe in us. How is that not evil? Now for most people to believe in something they need some good solid evidence which is unfortunately not provided in this case. If there was indeed Jesus and God they are obviously doing a poor job of it proving they exist.

I am curious though, can anyone actually prove 100% God and Jesus exist? Exactly.

 

Another thing I dislike about Christianity is that you have to believe in God for eternal life. This is basically God saying you have no choice but to believe in me or you will go to hell. I will provide little evidence of my existance along with my son and expect you to believe in us. How is that not evil? Now for most people to believe in something they need some good solid evidence which is unfortunately not provided in this case. If there was indeed Jesus and God they are obviously doing a poor job of it proving they exist.

I am curious though, can anyone actually prove 100% God and Jesus exist? Exactly.

Before anyone can answer your question, you must first define evidence. What constitutes evidence? And what kind of evidence is necessary for proof?

 

What would people like yourself and The_Fireman call evidence?

 

Well, as a Christian, I believe the Bible is the ultimate evidence of God. But obviously you don't accept that, which is why I'm curious as to what you do consider evidence.

 

"I believe the Bible is the ultimate evidence of God."

But how do you know the Bible hasn't been made up? Just because it is very old and claimed to have been written by some people doesn't make it fact. Apart from the bible what evidence is there? Perhaps you think or know yourself that God has talked to you during your dreams or something? Would you consider that sort of thing evidence?

 

I am curious though, can anyone actually prove 100% God and Jesus exist? Exactly.

I'd like to see you prove that you exist. Which is not meant to move this thread into a philosophical tangent, but rather to point out how much in life really is a matter of faith, even when we don't exactly realize it. Few basic scientific principles have ever been 100% proven -- they just make mathematical and logical sense and correspond statistically with what we observe in the universe. Proving something beyond a shadow of a doubt is an almost impossible feat, even in the realm of science.

Now, sure, most science is backed by a lot more evidence than most religion. I'm not attempting to dispute that at all. It's just a semantic point, really, but all it's really reasonable to ask for is not proof, but compelling evidence.

-Paul

 

Nobody can prove God exists. But as I hate philosophy with a bloody passion, I don't want to get into semantics about proving whether anyone or anything exists.

People who accept the existence of God do so on faith. However, I don't like the idea that I'm called to be "perfect", in other words, I'm called to be something that I cannot possibly be. I don't like feeling like a failure and I don't like the idea that a God who is supposed to be a God of Love dislikes me because of who I am. That's why I walked away from Christianity--that, and the lack of tolerance for other religious viewpoints in the belief that "all those who do not believe the way I do will burn in hell".

 

ElfStar is right. Unless a concept such as evidence is defined, it is free-roaming and can be anything and everything at once. Try and lock it down. Maybe say something like 'evidence is a clear and recognizable pattern in empirical knowledge', or 'evidence is belief'. Either work as definitions, and it is a privilege to define.

TAG: Jedi_Learner

 

See, neither of those things that drove you away from Christianity are things that I personally believe. I cannot accept that God would damn genuinely good people just because their lives happened not to be particularly conducive to their believing in Him. And I don't think God requires perfection; what He wants is for each one of us to be the best person we can be. He understands that we're human and that we make mistakes. He likes us and loves us in spite of those mistakes. Certainly, He's sorry when we mess up, but He doesn't dislike us for it. God's love is unconditional.

-Paul

 

"I cannot accept that God would damn genuinely good people just because their lives happened not to be particularly conducive to their believing in Him."

Doesn't it say though in the Bible, of all places, that you can only have eternal life if you believe in him otherwise your going to hell?

 

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God,
and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

 

I was born into a Christian family and attended a Catholic school up until graduation, and "discovered" I was really an atheist.

I have been subjected to prayers, church, the Bible, Sunday school, you name it. For some reason, no matter what age I was, I honestly never believed any of it. This angered and frustrated my teachers, priests, and parents throughout my childhood. You wouldn't believe how much trouble I got into in religion class for asking "improper" questions, even though I consistently got 90% in religion all through growing up . No matter how hard I tried, I struggled with Christianity my whole life, until I was 19.

The year I turned 19, I had a life-changing experience one day when I just said, "screw it, there probably is no God"! All of a sudden, everything became clear to me! I actually felt better about life, I was more comfortable with myself and others, and I felt liberated and enlightened! I came out into the open instead of being a "closet" atheist! I feel now that when I was growing up, everyone in my church and school were driving Christian ideas into my brain so hard, that when I look back I feel like I was being brainwashed, and I frustrated people because I wouldn't and couldn't agree with them!

It might sound dorky, but I feel the way a born-again Christian feels, except with the absence of any superstitious or religious beliefs! My atheist beliefs were never really a concious choice, either. I never believed in God, and it's improbable I ever will, but I'm happy with that.

 

" I feel now that when I was growing up, everyone in my church and school were driving Christian ideas into my brain so hard, that when I look back I feel like I was being brainwashed, and I frustrated people because I wouldn't and couldn't agree with them!"

Get them while there young and easily influenced. That is what I hate about all Religions forcing their views down on young people.

 

Revelation 20:12-15 (KJV):

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Now this "book of life" business is weird. Revelation 13:8 (KJV) says:

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Revelation 17:8 again mentions those "whose names were not written in the book of life form the foundation of the world." This seems to suggest predestination, a doctrine which I reject utterly. I don't pretend to understand exactly what is going on with that. (I should note that while again I do not discount the possibility some or all of it could occur literally, the Revelation is a book I tend to consider largely symbolic.) At any rate, it seems to me that there is some Biblical justification for the idea that non-believers will get a fair shake and judgment on their own merit before God. It's a very complex and debatable issue, and is ultimately not something which affects me a great deal, as I am confident in my own future. It's just my personal understanding of God that leads me to believe as I do.

-Paul

 

Ve believe in Nothing! Give us ze money, Lebowski!

Nihilists? Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism, at least it is an ethos...

E_S

 

At any rate, it seems to me that there is some Biblical justification for the idea that non-believers will get a fair shake and judgment on their own merit before God.

You are correct, Paul. They will be judged according to their deeds. However, it only takes one sin to seperate us from God. Their punishment will be based on their deeds, but they will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Revelation 17:8 again mentions those "whose names were not written in the book of life form the foundation of the world." This seems to suggest predestination, a doctrine which I reject utterly. I don't pretend to understand exactly what is going on with that.

Notice how in the other part of the passage you quoted, it says Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. You can look at this in two ways: Either God PLANNED for Jesus to be slain from the foundation of the world, or with God, time is not an issue, and it was already accomplished, despite it not happening on our timeline yet. Whichever it is, the thing about our names being written in the Book corresponds to it.

 

It was mentioned that there is no "proof" for the existence of God and/or Christ (actually the argumentation wouldn't be over the existence of the historical Jesus but as to His actual identity as Messiah), and of course there is no "proof" that atheism is correct, and thus is it an unavoidably 'faith-based' initiative.

I whole heartedly disagree with the notion there is no "proof" for the existence of God and Christ, but the difficulty here is that we will probably not be able to come to any real consensus as to what judiciously constitutes proof.

The nature of reasonable proof is always through the utility of eyewitness testimonial within a fair criterion, a concept which is expressed in the Mosaic portions of scripture, but which is universally recognized. 'Does a bear actually take a dump in the woods if nobody is there to see, hear, or smell it?' (This's just a play on the concept).

It really doesn't matter whether or not we ascribe "religion" to atheism, or argue the applicability of the terminology ad infinitum, it is a faith in the unseen and upon a general lack of personal experiential evidence.

Which brings us to an actual Biblical definition of "faith" as opposed to popular misunderstandings or mis-definitions of the meaning of the word so prevalently imposed over and upon what "faith" actually represents. Faith is not the unreasonable belief in what is totally unknown, but a belief upon what is known of what is not fully known or understood of Deity. Biblically, to put it simplest, faith is synonymous with the word 'trust.'

We all utilize faith in every relationship we have in our lives. No one knows everything of anyone they know,...or probably of anything for that matter.



The notion of an 'unfair Deity' has been touched upon in a few posts, but one might fairly (no pun intended) ask whether or not we are the ones in fact being unfair and not Deity?

For instance, individuals who cannot control their own impulses are generally institutionalized in some degree or other, which suggests on the solely human level we are well aware of the ability of most rational individuals to be capable of self restraint and accountable for their own behavior and conduct. I know of no country without a penal code. That dispenses with the notion that it would have been unfair to place human beings in this environment. We choose to do good or evil, to murder or not to murder.

So, I suppose if I were to ask a question here, it might be why a Deity would not hold a person to any form of accountability? If reasonable men recognize standards of accountability why wouldn't a reasonable Deity? This intuitively leads to other questions, such as if human beings, a higher order of intellect, are not rationally accountable to pigs or canines, lower intellects, how then would the higher order of intellect of Deity be accountable to the scrutinization of men who by contrast are a lower order?

Keep in mind, we do hold the lower intellect of animals to our own standards, such that a rabid dog is put to death. We do so of a sense of higher justification and the greater good.

Further, if Deity exists, yet we label Deity as unjust, when in fact Deity is righteous (asserted here for the sake of argument), then we are guilty by our own human standards of crime already. Libel and slander for starters, which we easily recognize as injustices. What is the point here? That a righteous and just Deity is not accountable to the capricious notions of mere mortals, and is in fact justified by human standards in ignoring those who've already demonstrated the insufficiency of their own justness through actual, not merely potential, injustice. Hence, the atheist in this circumstance should expect no showing or reward of God. Because we recognize and understand this we are without excuse.

The proximity and presence of Deity would unarguably by the summum bonum of existence, as all order of reality would be dependent upon the very source for all that could or would be good. Hence, the essence of pleasure, for example,

 

I'm a "don't believe in gods"-type of atheist, not the "there are no gods"-type of atheist. The reason for this is the lack of evidence. I don't see any reason to worship any one deity over the rest of 2500, or so, gods.

I was never raised religiously, so I never gave up any Faith, but our schools do have "devotional" religious classes. In Finnish schools religion is a bigger deal than in American public schools. Alas, they did affect me.

 

For instance, individuals who cannot control their own impulses are generally institutionalized in some degree or other, which suggests on the solely human level we are well aware of the ability of most rational individuals to be capable of self restraint and accountable for their own behavior and conduct.

I know of no free country that still institutionalizes people for being homosexual, for swearing, or for not being a certain religion, however.

 

You are correct, Paul. They will be judged according to their deeds. However, it only takes one sin to seperate us from God. Their punishment will be based on their deeds, but they will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Well... I don't know, and won't until after this life, but I still disagree with you here. I do not know God as someone who operates that way. You may be right, but at any rate, I disagree.

or with God, time is not an issue, and it was already accomplished, despite it not happening on our timeline yet.

This was not an explanation I had thought to apply to that point, but I quite like it, as it meshes well with the way I think of God. Thank you.

-Paul

 

We all utilize faith in every relationship we have in our lives. No one knows everything of anyone they know,...or probably of anything for that matter.

yeah but at least my "faith" that my sister is real and exists can be evidenced by the fact i can physically see her with my own two eyes and talk to her if i pick up a phone. as much as you may say you have a "relationship" with god, you can't do this. i know, i've been there.

the "faith" in a personal, loving, creator god is nothing like that, as much as theists love to try and push it and thus somehow justify their faith as being something other than being simply blind. there is no "proof" of god. there cannot be, or else faith is irrelevent. a personal conviction or some "feeling" you have in your gut or your heart does not constitute proof. proof of a god would include the ability to see him with our own two eyes. why can't we do that? because god requires faith.

i consistently hear (not just on this board) that christians "know" that god is real. this cannot be true. to "know" something exists and to have "faith" that something exists are distinct as far as the common usage of the terms are concerned. trying to squirm out of it by highlighting the lack of Truth (with a capital T) in science (something that i agree with) does nothing to justify being able to "know" that god exists. christians simply tell themselves this to justify their faith to themselves.

having said all that, i don't see why an atheism thread need focus on religion. one thing that could be discussed is the lack of teleological meaning/purpose to life that is inherent in the atheist worldview and whether or not, especially those atheists who were formerly theists, this has been a difficult thing to overcome? this seems a common perception of theists, and i do think it could be a justified issue during the "switch", so to speak.