Attack of the Holocron Menace

No, I'm not trying to put G-canon below C-canon. I'm trying to say that LFL is always right

Yes, but that's the result of what you are doing. Honestly, it is stupid to say a source that changes its own story on one simple issue several times is "always right" (from 17.6, then to 8, then to 12.8, then to something under 19.2, and according to your interpretation of what we can observe back to 12.8; and maybe I missed a couple of minority iterations).

17.6 km is no more a G-canon measurement than 8 km. 17.6 km is a measurement given to us from a C-canon source (ITW).

Which any person can check for himself against the film. We've only shown you the standard scaling picture about 10 times in the past year. Anything in the book that is also in the film also gets G-canon status, and is no longer touchable.

Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon - by Chee.

Because that was the only measurement issued by an official source

Please. If you don't have a lot of faith in your own eyes, or rulers, or mathematics, then fine. But please don't call those ill-considered WEG blurbs "measurements." I don't mind if you call them "declarations" or "statements". But calling those baseless things (they definitely are not based on the film) "measurements" is an insult to any person who has competently trained in the use of a ruler, or in basic ratio mathematics.

If LFL arbitrarily decides rules of canon -- AND THOSE RULES CHANGE --

They have stated no changes in the rules, much as you'd like to think so. The basic rule structure, has, with superficial modification, been the same in fundamental nature - films on top, novels below for the almost half decade I've been playing this game (and apparently another half decade at least before I was old enough to play).

then clearly whatever LFL says is true is true. And if LFL says 12.8 km then it's 12.8 km.

No, LFL authorized (or just let past their radar - we know from experience their continuity surveillance is lax) a C-canon source (since Lucas said nothing, and it clearly isn't a film) with the 12.8 value. Like all the others, it'd run head to head with the shown G-canon value and lose.

Understand this: Your interpretation effectively voids the film of all power to override C-canon. Because there will always be a C-canon after the sporadic G-canon efforts (until the Star Wars franchise closes). If you assume whatever happens to be the latest C-canon constantly represents the LFL position (because LFL in theory authorizes all of them, starwars.com and otherwise), and that position is allowed to override all laid down rules and the films, the G-canon is no longer effective as a controlling mechanism.

Our interpretation, on the other hand, takes into account the present rules (and the older rules) rather than trying to effectively void them - and it presents LFL as a company that can abide by its own rules rather than ripping them apart for trivial ends.

 

Yes, but that's the result of what you are doing. Honestly, it is stupid to say a source that changes its own story on one simple issue several times is "always right" (from 17.6, then to 8, then to 12.8, then to something under 19.2, and according to your interpretation of what we can observe back to 12.8; and maybe I missed a couple of minority iterations).

No, it's not the reality of what I'm doing. What I'm doing is saying the copyright holder that dictates what is or is not canon is always correct in dictating what canon is.

Honestly, it is stupid to say that the people who dictate canon aren't allowed to dictate canon.

Which any person can check for himself against the film. We've only shown you the standard scaling picture about 10 times in the past year. Anything in the book that is also in the film also gets G-canon status, and is no longer touchable.

Anything that LFL says is true trumps whatever other source there is as they decide what is canon and are the sole arbiters of canonocity.

So it doesn't really matter what ITW says; it matters what LFL says.

Please. If you don't have a lot of faith in your own eyes, or rulers, or mathematics, then fine. But please don't call those ill-considered WEG blurbs "measurements." I don't mind if you call them "declarations" or "statements". But calling those baseless things (they definitely are not based on the film) "measurements" is an insult to any person who has competently trained in the use of a ruler, or in basic ratio mathematics.

They're "measurements" because they're in-universe sources. I call your "statements" of 17.6 km false, because that's what they are. Anything different is an insult to any person who is completely trained in the use of a web browser to find the 100% currently correct measurement.

They have stated no changes in the rules, much as you'd like to think so. The basic rule structure, has, with superficial modification, been the same in fundamental nature - films on top, novels below for the almost half decade I've been playing this game (and apparently another half decade at least before I was old enough to play).

"Almost half a decade." That's rich, because the canon before that (8 km) was in play for TWELVE YEARS prior to that. But, again, you're arguing that the people who dictate what the canon is can't dictate what the canon is.

Either LFL dictates canon, or they don't.

If they don't, you cannot use the arguments of "films > EU" or "G-canon" because those are artificial constructs issued by LFL. If they do, then whatever LFL says is canon is canon.

No, LFL authorized (or just let past their radar - we know from experience their continuity surveillance is lax) a C-canon source (since Lucas said nothing, and it clearly isn't a film) with the 12.8 value. Like all the others, it'd run head to head with the shown G-canon value and lose.

Understand this: Your interpretation effectively voids the film of all power to override C-canon. Because there will always be a C-canon after the sporadic G-canon efforts (until the Star Wars franchise closes). If you assume whatever happens to be the latest C-canon constantly represents the LFL position (because LFL in theory authorizes all of them, starwars.com and otherwise), and that position is allowed to override all laid down rules and the films, the G-canon is no longer effective as a controlling mechanism.

Our interpretation, on the other hand, takes into account the present rules (and the older rules) rather than trying to effectively void them - and it presents LFL as a company that can abide by its own rules rather than ripping them apart for trivial ends.

My interpretation does no such thing. My interpretation is that those people who decide canon -- LFL and GL -- are those people who decide canon. If they decide something is canon, then it's canon.

Your interpretation states that those people who decide canon decide canon until you think they're wrong at which point you -- and not they -- are deciding

 

They're "measurements" because they're in-universe sources.

1) I'm referring to the extrinsic process.
2) It doesn't work intrinsically either, because the characters are producing at least two different numbers, and a source supposedly higher and more reliable than all of them shows a third.

I call your "statements" of 17.6 km false, because that's what they are.

Oh, so despite the fact I measured it from the G-canon (read: I paid more attention to the film than you, so I got some details you didn't - which does not mean those details don't exist, (APPEND: especially after I showed you the screenshots that you missed)), and they merely spit out what sounded good, mine is the Statement and their's is the Measurement?

Anything different is an insult to any person who is completely trained in the use of a web browser to find the 100% currently correct measurement.

By that, you mean the most modern C-canon statement. The mere fact the most modern C-canon statement keeps changing and is inconsistent with the G-canon statement suggests the very fallability of LFL.

If they decide something is canon, then it's canon.

Correct. And LFL (assuming they really were checking on Paul Hidalgo that closely) just decided that 12.8 is still a valid piece ... of C-canon. As such, it is shattered against the G-canon, also as per their instructions. You seem to be interested in taking only the instruction sets that suit you

As for "know from experience their continuity surveillance is lax."

The very fact that they had to change their official idea of length at least (EDIT: several) should tell you how lax the surveillance is. Had they actually have proper surveillance, they'd have decided all the way back in 1980 (when they first showed old Executor) what the correct length is and show it consistently, ruthlessly stamp out the violators, and never change the length.

 

1) I'm referring to the extrinsic process.
2) It doesn't work intrinsically either, because the characters are producing at least two different numbers, and a source supposedly higher and more reliable than all of them shows a third.

You're trying to argue circularly: saying that a source higher than other sources is more correct than the people who created the rule that elevated the source.

Doesn't work.

Either LFL dictates canon and what is correct or they don't.

Oh, so despite the fact I measured it from the G-canon (read: I paid more attention to the film than you, so I got some details you didn't - which does not mean those details don't exist), and they merely spit out what sounded good, mine is the Statement and their's is the Measurement?

You didn't pay any more attention to the film than I did. You're taking an arbitrary level of canon as issued by LFL and then turning around and saying LFL can't dictate canon.

LFL says 12.8 km. By definition, since LFL is always correct in matters of canon as they dictate the canon, 12.8 km is the correct measurement. Call it a statement if you'd like, but it's a statement of fact.

By that, you mean the most modern C-canon statement. The mere fact the most modern C-canon statement keeps changing and is inconsistent with the G-canon statement suggests the very fallability of LFL.

No, I mean the most currently correct statement period. LFL dictates canon. Thus if LFL says 12.8 km, then the most correct statement and/or measurement at the moment is 12.8 km.

Correct. And LFL (assuming they really were checking on Paul Hidalgo that closely) just decided that 12.8 is still a valid piece ... of C-canon. As such, it is shattered against the G-canon, also as per their instructions. You seem to be interested in taking only the instruction sets that suit you

Incorrect. As LFL dictates canon and establishes the canon rules, only LFL can dictate canon. As LFL says 12.8 km, it must be 12.8 km.

You can't argue that G-canon is "more valid" than any other source without acknowledging that LFL dictates canon. If LFL dictates canon, 12.8 km must be the proper current length.

The very fact that they had to change their official idea of length at least three times should tell you how lax the surveillance is. Had they actually have proper surveillance, they'd have decided all the way back in 1980 (when they first showed old Executor) what the correct length is and show it consistently, ruthlessly stamp out the violators, and never change the length.

The very fact that Han Solo shoots first and then shoots second and then shoots simultaneously should indicate to you exactly how nonsensical your above paragraph sounds.

GL changes his mind and I don't see you saying that his surveillance is lax.

 

No, I think the point now is everyone else on here is ignoring me, so why aren't you?

Like, who are you?

 

Incorrect. As LFL dictates canon and establishes the canon rules, only LFL can dictate canon. As LFL says 12.8 km, it must be 12.8 km.

You are still assuming LFL entered (assuming again that LFL is actually watching Paul Hidalgo, or that Paul Hidalgo really updates everything at once) it as something that can override their own rules, rather than as a mere piece of C-canon as per their own rules.

The very fact that Han Solo shoots first and then shoots second and then shoots simultaneously should indicate to you exactly how nonsensical your above paragraph sounds.

In fact, this is also an inconsistency, and there was really no reason to change from the first pattern at all.

But at least Lucas makes the G-canon, so he has the authority.

At least thanks for tactitly conceding the point that those morons never made a real measurement when they said 5 and 8 miles.

 

dp4m

No, I mean the most currently correct statement period. LFL dictates canon. Thus if LFL says 12.8 km, then the most correct statement and/or measurement at the moment is 12.8 km.

Gee, the Databank currrectly says that the Executor's HEIGHT is 12.8 km.

[image=http://www.geocities.com/mr_poe0000/dp4m.jpg]

Yup, that looks JUST like it did in the movie, all right!

No, ITW isn't LFL. It's authorized by LFL, but LFL actually issues the Databank items themselves -- which makes them exactly what LFL wants to issue. Which makes them correct. As the Databank has been updated since ITW, clearly ITW is no longer the correct measurement.

Wrong again. According to Leland Chee,

I don't know when/if the databank will be updated; that's up to the Online group. Databank entries usually don't get dynamically updated every time new information comes out.

As for other spinoff literature, there was something from Spain that I saw that has the updated size - it even included a size chart, but I haven't come across anything else. Moving forward, we use the new length, which is roughly 19 km long.

 

RogueWampRat - Like, who are you?

Apparently nothing but a figment of your imagenation.

Go back to sleep.

 

Oh, okay. Will do....

 

Can't we all just accept the fact that the people at LFL are fallible and can contradict themselves/each other? Different sources sanctioned by LFL saying two or three different things about the length of the Executor; since LFL has not declared any of these measurements "non-canon," they ALL are correct. Stupid? Yes. Possible in a fictional universe? Yes, because that universe is defined by the people who create and add to it. Surprising considering the vastness of publications and the status of LFL as a corporate entity? No.

 

The Guy is right. This is Star Wars. Fan(atic)s should just except the inevitable reality. Mistakes happen, the NJO happened, and it's over. Right?

 

RogueWompRat - Oh, okay. Will do....

Good boy.

 

But here's the crux of the argument: WHO DECIDES THAT MOVIES ARE G-CANON?

George Lucas.

 

Can't we all just accept the fact that the people at LFL are fallible and can contradict themselves/each other? Different sources sanctioned by LFL saying two or three different things about the length of the Executor; since LFL has not declared any of these measurements "non-canon," they ALL are correct. Stupid? Yes. Possible in a fictional universe? Yes, because that universe is defined by the people who create and add to it. Surprising considering the vastness of publications and the status of LFL as a corporate entity? No.

Well, problem solved then. I guess by that logic Luke can grow 20 feet or monkeys can fly out of Han's arse at his command.

 

Well, if a LFL-sanctioned source says so...

"But here's the crux of the argument: WHO DECIDES THAT MOVIES ARE G-CANON?"

George Lucas.

Heh, I doubt he even knows "G-canon" exists. LFL, the company under him, came-up with the "canon" heirarchy.

 

Well, problem solved then. I guess by that logic Luke can grow 20 feet or monkeys can fly out of Han's arse at his command.
If Lucas OKs it and a story is written where these things happen, then it can.
This argument is SO out of hand. Lucas is like the Pope and LFL is like the Catholic church. Lucas only addresses the public about Star Wars on rare and special occasions, but when he does, LFL, who usually address questions of canonicity, must yield to him because he is THE MAN. The movies are to Lucas as the Gospel is to the Pope. The Pope can choose to say that "Maybe the way we've always interpreted this passage was wrong. We're now going to say THIS is what it means." Lucas has much more power than that as he actually WROTE the movies.
This Super Star Destroyer nonsense is even MORE out of hand. Would you trust a textbook from 1400 that said the world is flat and you could fall off. The most recent researched source is the right one. Whomever wrote the most recent thorough book that qoutes the size is right. On the other hand, maybe a few ambitious shipwrights expanded the dimensions, especially in the Post-Endor GFFA where warlords were competing for the title of "Scariest Guy in the Galaxy".
I'm not trying to be condescending, but there is such a thing as overthinking things.