Attempting to Outdo Palpatine: The Recent Trend and Why, IMHO, It Doesn't Work- Discussion

You know, I've been rereading the NJO, and keeping up on FOTJ news, and I've noticed a definite pattern with Del Rey: they keep trying to outdo Palpatine with almost every new antagonist they throw our way. First the Vong, then the Killiks, then Caedus, and now Abeloth. Every one of them is, as far as I can tell, described as 'the greatest threat the galaxy had ever seen', or otherwise somehow made out to be a worse threat than Palpatine in other ways, such as Caedus coming so close to killing Luke.

However, not ONE of them, so far, has really come close to the absolute evil that was Palpatine. Abeloth sounds like the closest thus far, but Del Rey hasn't really impressed me with their efforts to dethrone Palpatine as the greatest galactic-level threat ever, so my hopes are low.

Part of that may be my personal opinion that it just can't be done, and SHOULDN'T be attempted anyways.

The Vong, for example, were brutal, they brought death and destruction on a mass scale, and tortured people- yet in ever single way, Palpatine outdid them, or intended to. There are far worse things than death, and Palpatine's end goal entailed utilizing pretty much every single one of them.

Trying to turn the entire sentient population of the galaxy into mindless battery-drones, IMHO, eclipses everything any subsequent antagonist has brought to the table. And the torture of Bevel Lemelisk just outdoes any torture the Vong could POSSIBLY think up.

And yes, the Vong defeated the crap out of the New Republic- but compare that to the speed at which the reborn Emperor took the NR from the current reigning galactic government and threw them back into scattered rebellion mode. Palpy just did it faster than the Vong could.

Further, Palpatine SHOULD be the greatest threat the galaxy has ever seen, simply because he's the only one who ever necessitated the Force to directly intercede, what with the whole Chosen One prophecy. Being the greatest threat to the Galaxy and the Force itself ever is Palpatine's schtick, and I'm really getting sick of seeing so many great ideas try to outdo the guy CREATED to be the incarnation of pure evil at his own game. It just makes them ultimately less interesting than they could be if they even just shot for the number 2 spot instead.

Thus, we get to the purpose of this topic: anyone else feeling tired of this trend? Anyone else just want to see a villain do their own thing and not try to be so "ZOMG WORST THREAT EVAH!", and tired of seeing it always fall flat? Honestly, the Vong bring all sorts of great things to the table, but trying to make them the number one threat just set everyone up for disappointment. Same with Caedus- he had moments, but he was no Emperor.

And now we've got Allies and the other upcoming FOTJ books advertising Abeloth as something so much greater than Jedi or Sith. I really wish they could do a series without trying (and, IMHO, FAILING) to make it THE MOST PIVOTAL EVENT IN GALACTIC HISTORY EVER!!! every time. And I want to see if there's anyone else who feels the same.

 

Well, if there is one thing I am tired of, it's threads which ceaselessly promote Palpatine as the greatest and most powerful threat ever. No offense, since that may not be what you're trying to do, but this has been covered by Palpatine fanboys many times before. I don't think we need another thread that quickly becomes Palpatine vs. Nihilus or Palpatine vs. Marka Ragnos or Who is the greatest Sith.

 

I HOPE it doesn't devolve into that!

Honestly, my problem is with Del Rey's constant attempts to outdo everything that has ever gone before, and it falling flat upon closer observation. This trend, to an extent, even goes back to the Bantam books and their constant "MOST POWERFUL SUPERWEAPON EVAH!"-of-the-week plots.

From a mythological standpoint, Palpatine should stand out as the biggest threat, simply because the rise and fall of Palpatine's Empire is deemed to be the single most important conflict in that history. It, and the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker that accompanies it, is the central focus of Lucas' six films, and I honestly feel that you can have a great Star Wars series and still respect that.

I just honestly don't get the apparent need to make everything worse than everything before. It's like the authors are stuck thinking "We have to make a bigger threat or no one will be interested!"- which, IMHO, is not true at all!

And I'm also tired of seeing every new threat talking big, but failing on the final analysis. Caedus is probably THE biggest offender there. Invincible, the book that purports Caedus to be more powerful than Darth Vader on the dust jacket, is the book that, IMHO, shows Caedus at his absolute weakest.

And that sort of thing being done over and over is, IMHO, just absolutely ridiculous. A lot of the crying out about Caedus and the other threats, IMHO, can be done away with by just settling for it being a dire threat, maybe one of the worst in recent memory. But shooting for and constantly failing to deliver the greatest threat ever is getting incredibly tired.

I know I started rambling a bit there, but, well, there it is.
EDIT: Just found a good word for what I'm trying to say: it's the constant escalation of threats- I honestly just don't feel that you HAVE to make it the greatest threat ever to make it interesting, but the authors seem stuck in this kind of thinking. That's why the last few series have all been about giant galactic-level threats, to the point that it's hard to do such a story credibly anymore.

 

Yeah, I hear you. If threats are going to be made out to be worse than Palpatine then they should deliver on it. In simpler terms, if it's said they're the biggest and baddest bad guys out there and they turn out to be LAME, then it should have never been said they were the biggest and baddest.

Still, I don't think Palpatine is the greatest threat the galaxy has ever faced, nor the most powerful Sith, and nor should it be kept that way; we've already seen the likes of Darth Nihilus and the ancient Sith Lords. I would enjoy super-villains that far surpassed him, like some dark side god or something. The true Sith seemed to fit that, and Abeloth *may* be heading that way.

 

Vader: "By the immortal gods of the Sith!"

Just sayyyyin...

 

I quit FOTJ after Omen and only read Legacy now but ...

... I totally agree. Don't try to outdo Palpatine. Instead of FOTJ I would have liked the Vong to do a second attempt. They are warriors, after all, and Nas Choka survived. Give them some years to regroup, strenghten up, maybe use a little technology, and start with the assassination of Luke Skywalker. That is a series I would like to read. For example.

 

Someday, I hope, we'll get something ancient Sith, whether it be true pure-blooded Sith or a Celestial who ruled over them or, even better, the DARK SIDE itself, or the dark side incarnate, emerges from the shadows and immediately every single dark sider in the galaxy bows before their god... and the ultimate battle between Jedi and Sith follows.

Interesting thing in TOTJ companion when dealing with the Sith species' origins, is it says perhaps they were born from the dark side itself, or were separate but formed an alliance due to mutual goals... Sounds almost like a sentient dark side or dark side being who started off the Sith, if not the species, then the religion and philosophy. But I'll stop myself right there, before I go off saying how this would have tied in so well with the true Sith being a giant empire 100,000-30,000 BBY linked with the Celestials, Killiks, Rakata, various mystery Sith and KOTOR 2 and how this was ruined with TOR.

 

Hey, if they're going to go that route, at LEAST have the threat ACTUALLY be worse than anything that's come before, and not just give us a lame villain and have all the heroes suddenly forget all the things they've gone through that are far worse in some attempt to make the wimpy threat seem worse than it really is. That's just insulting our intelligence, and that of the characters. And if they're not going to deliver, then they shouldn't try to promise it in the FIRST place.

Besides, I think Star Wars needs some low-key stories again. Something that only effects a planet or a sector or something, rather than having every new book HAVE to tie into some massive attempt at galactic domination.

You'd almost think every nut with a blaster was planning to rule the galaxy at this point- it's gotten THAT ridiculous.

 

I agree.

What would be interesting is if you had one author release, gradually, many different low-key works, which actually all tie in to the super-massive-Sith-threat or whatever it is that emerges in the far future of the galaxy. For example, an archaeologist finds a mysterious temple which mentions the mystery threat, and then another story where several cultists begin a Krath or Naddist-esque uprising, etc. It would make the threat seem that much bigger when revealed.

Oh, and I'm only suggesting this because I'm doing something similar myself.

 

I never really put much (or anything) in the "WORST THREAT EVER!" junk they put on the back covers. Caedus as bad as Vader? Yeah, well, whatever. First rule of writing: show don't tell. I didn't see it, ergo I'll make my own mind up. Ditto with the Vong. Ditto the Killiks. Abeloth. Everything else. So whatever the marketing hype is, yeah, I don't care much about that anymore than I do "Best movie in years!" according to the Oscar committee... er, yeah, they can say what they like too, that doesn't mean I'm not going to say the Hurt Locker sucked either.

So, all OOU sales hype to try and sell books to the lowest common denominator aside, once you actually get into the stories, do the bad guys bother me? Not inherently, as the reality is Krayt aside none of them have achieved diddly. However. I do also feel that the biggest problem of late is the lack of smaller scale threats that are any good. We do get them sometimes... just sadly they usually don't seem to have had much effort put in. By comparison, recently we've had Crosscurrent, which was genuinely really, really good, and wasn't some galaxy threatening unstoppable MASTER OF DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!! Things like that I'd like to see more of, and in the last year or so we do seem to have had more of those stories than we did a few years back.

Not all of them have struck universal praise, but then, no story is ever going to. I like LSatSoM, others didn't; you win some, you lose some.

I think one of the main causes of threats like the Vong appearing to eclipse Palpatine is largely just because we haven't seen anywhere near enough of the Dark Times. Most of Palp's worst atrocities remain off screen, footnotes in a sourcebook, a character mentioning their home got devastated, so on and so forth. Despite much of it boring me to tears, one thing I did utterly love about 501st was when that planet got wiped out with the nanovirus... that was kriffing Evil with a capital E. We know these disasters are rather more common than is often taken for granted, but we don't often see the effects that directly; even something like Falleen, we only heard about it after the fact through Xizor. And not everything the Empire did was going to have been a total genocide, there were clearly lots of smaller scale atrocities.

That's why I want to see more Dark Times stories. They're leaving it open right now (I think) because of the upcoming TV series, but once there's enough detail about that for them to start saying "Okay, that's in 10 BBY, so that means we can do what we like in the nine years leading up to then" I want to see some full on fascism from the Empire with Vader as the genocidal butcher that the galaxy comes to fear. The Vong may have caused all round carnage in the four-five years that they were active, but the Empire had two decades in total control... and we've only seen a small fraction of that explored.

Come to think of it, I know what I'd like to see: a Darth Bane style novel following Darth Vader, i.e. a Sith oriented novel where we got to see it through the eyes of the bad guy doing bad stuff and being bad. Not the crybaby Vader we followed in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, but the truly badass monster in the iron mask in a sequel or something, Dark Lord: Reign of Darth Vader, whatever. Show the man at his peak, not just hunting down Jedi in the Purge, but striking fear into every living creature he comes across as the Empire solidifies its absolute hold. Forget a happy TFU ending where the hero dies but the good guys still win in the end... I'm talking a Darth Bane ending where Vader pwnz all.

 

You've missed out on all the examples of WORSTEST THREAT EVARR, from before the Movies. Naga Sadow makes stars go kaboom. Exar Kun chains himself to a temple to turn into a superlaser. Malak has his personal World Devastator/Death Star replicate. Nihilus eats peoples souls. Bane makes mind bombs.

I think the worst offender of all is The Old Republic. It may be the way Lance Hendrickson is describing it, but I am getting tired of hearing about how everything was "DA MOST DEVASTATIN' WAAAGH DAT DA GALAXY EVAH HAD!" (Whoops, mixed franchises).

And I am rather sick of every new character becoming something of a chosen one. What ever happened to the little guy? When you have a hundred characters all be integral to galactic balance, it detracts from what made the original chosen one and big bad special.

Its also one of the reasons that I hate MMOs trying to make everyone feel like they're the hero. Why can't I just be the little guy who saw a big fight? At least SW Galaxies (Pre New Game Experience) got that right.

 

Things in the past don't bother me as the films themselves talked about how once more the Sith will rule the galaxy.

If they'd never ruled it before, there'd have been no reason for Palpatine to say that.

I can understand the desire not to see the galaxy karked up about in Luke's lifetime, but it's a fait accompli that when the movie itself hints at a time when a great Sith Empire once before ruled the galaxy that the EU is going to go and explore that. Heck, it'd be the biggest tease ever to say that and then go and not explore it.

 

Want. So very, VERY much want.

 

Hm, I think part of the reason why it sometimes seems like they're trying to outdo Palpatine is that the authors are also not sure what to do with Luke anymore either. They are the classic elements of the story- the hero and the villain. Sure, there's Vader too, but by RotJ he's more of the "fallen knight" archetype than big boss. But anyway, what I mean is that at Endor, Luke is only a new Jedi Knight, who despite his raw power, still doesn't stand a chance against Palpatine, but he's saved by his father. Comparatively, a few years later when Palpatine comes back, Luke tries to take him on more directly and still doesn't quite win, but Palpatine does still have a lot more experience.

My point is, when Luke fought Palpatine he had barely... at most a decade of on and off training and experience as a Jedi Knight? So, by the NJO, Luke should've been one of the most powerful Jedi ever seen, even moreso by LotF. NJO got around that problem a bit by distracting Luke with the Great River of running away and the fact that even Luke can't take on several million Vong at once or be everywhere at once. But by LotF, they literally had to emotionally cripple Luke to set up an "epic final duel!!!!!!!" between Jacen and Jaina, as quite simply, Caedus probably still didn't have it in him to go directly up against Luke.

So they keep trying to come up with threats that outdo Palpatine, as a worthy challenge for Luke, but they can't touch Luke either. Luke eventually gets around to defeating the bad guy... but then everything up to that point seems like they're just wasting time, which is probably why LotF ended up as it did.

I don't mind ancient Sith, like Sadow or Exar Kun pulling off (or trying to pull off, in Kun's case, with his botched "ascension") doing crazy stuff, as that's really when the Sith are at their epic height (though I expect TOR to try and outdo everybody... again), but then all these post-Palpatine attempts at outdoing him get... tiresome. Honestly, in terms of accomplishments, Krayt rivals him, ruling the galaxy with an army of darksiders, but at least with Krayt you see he just did it through long planning, so his intelligence can be respected, rather than us almost crying or laughing at Caedus' bumbling and everyone else's inability to finish him. Not to mention by the time Krayt emerges Luke is already dead so there's no need to outdo the Luke vs. Palpatine battle.

 

dewback_rancher- welcome to the EU, and by the way Del Rey isn't the only one. Dark Horse also is in the mix. Freedom Nadd? Wait what about Exar Kun and the super energy blast. I mean, I know where your coming from, but this is the EU and between both Del Rey and Dark Horse they have tried to come out with characters that out do Palpatine.

But all in all, sometimes you do have to have things like that beucase you need a story. I not going to down either Del Rey or Dark Horse for it.

The vong were good becuase they took the advantage away from force users. The vong were deadly and in my opinion worse than the Empire. Even if we see more Dark Times, it will never be as dark as the vong. Of course speaking within EU, not the movies. If we just count the movies, then the Empire is it.

 

Personally I'd like to see the GFFA invaded by a ship full of cute and fuzzy bunny like lifeforms who's only goal is mayham, devestation and the taking of our woman. But the Jedi and the GA military are thwarted at every turn because public opinion states that no matter how evil they are, they're just so darn cute.

No Super weapons, no Sith Dark Side wack job insano warriors, no ghosts or zombies. Just a book about the evil Lord Floppsy and his army of elite cotton tails asking whether human's are best served with red or white whine.

 

Don't they actually describe these antagnoists as "the single greatest threat since Palpatine"? Which is a huge difference.

 

I'm sick of the very notion of trying to out evil Palpatine. I'm not going to fanboy him, but he's constructed as the Star Wars Anti-Christ. He necessitates the Star Wars Christ to take him out. The Force conspired against him, even when he thought he was winning. Furthermore, he just took what he and his Sith predecessors were doing to the galaxy before their Rise and ultimate corruption of the Republic into the Empire to the Nth degree. They were building their own personal power by spreading fear, terror, anger, resentment and greed in the galaxy to the point that it unbalanced the Force. Then the guy took that principle and pushed it to the point of where he's actually using the very lifeforce of people to fuel himself and started with a single planet with the intent to spread it to the entire galaxy... then the universe. No one has gone that far in their aspirations or experiments towards said aspirations. Not before, and certainly not after. Abeloth may seem nasty, but in the end she seems more like the Parallax entity from Green Lantern than say... I don't know, the current big baddie, Blackest Night's Nekron. Palpatine reminds me more of Nekron.

I also don't think the Force should ever be said to have been unbalanced again.

 

To be fair though, the Sith had nearly all the galaxy in their hands at one point during the New Sith Wars. That would be enough for the Sith to have been the sole galactic superpower, and thus the de facto rulers of the galaxy. As for Palpatine, no other villian will ever match up to him simply because he's the sole Sith (or any other warmongerer for that matter) to become both the de jure and de facto ruler of the entire galaxy even though he didn't rely on fancy gimmicks like Force-induced supernovas, Star Forges, or biological abominations in his quest for total domination.

In that regard, the One Sith come the closest to matching Darth Sidious in terms of SW-level villany simply because they take some pages from Palpatine's gimmickless playbook, and are more-or-less successful in conquering the galaxy as a result. Meanwhile, the One Sith are able to have an organization and backstory distinct from that of Palpatine's, so they are not complete rip-offs in the least (even if inspired by Darth Maul to some degree).

PS: Yes I am a Palpatine fanboy.

 

Where do you get the impression they're trying to do so, then? Just the back of the books? That's marketing speak, and it's hardly new to Del Rey.

From The New Rebellion: "But Brakiss is only the bait in a deadly trap set by a master of the dark side who is determined to rule as emperor. He's targeted Luke, Leia, and Leia's Jedi children to die. Then billions will follow, in a holocaust unequaled in galactic history."

From Dark Apprentice: "A brilliant student delves dangerously into the dark side of the Force and unleashes the spirit of an ancient master of the evil order that warped Darth Vader himself. Working together, they may become an enemy greater than any the New Republic has ever fought? more powerful than even a Jedi Master can face."

From Darksaber: "Soon they and Luke will face the ultimate test of their power?one in which all the temptations of the dark side of the Force beckon?"

And so on. Point being, it's hyperbole to sell books to people who've just seen the movies and are glancing through the bookshelves at the store. Very rarely is that same sort of hyperbole echoed in the books themselves, and as you indicate, it's no different here. No one's downplaying Palpatine in the novels themselves. In fact, the villains routinely establish themselves as different kinds of threats from him?the Vong were an omnicidal invasion force, Caedus was a close loved one, Abeloth is a Cthulhoid ancient horror. We can talk who's a better or worse villain till kingdom come, but it's not at all obvious that any of them are, out of universe, trying to usurp Palpatine's place.

 

I find this funny, considering I'm old enough to have read the Thrawn Trilogy when it first came out.

And I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the Vong being darker than Palpatine. Compare the 'breaking' of Miko Reglia in Vector Prime to the repeated executions and resurrections of Bevel Lemelisk, and you see Palpatine is far more sadistic than the sadomasochistic Vong.

The Vong just repeatedly ALMOST killed Miko. Only Palpatine went all the way and repeatedly KILLED a guy.

Hence, why I just couldn't buy the way the Vong were built up as the most sadistic things EVER when we've already seen far worse.

EDIT: Didn't see your post. And for an example of an enemy being built up to be worse than anything before, see above. The section where the Vong broke Miko specifically stated that 'nothing he had ever experienced could possibly prepare him' for the Vong, and I'm PRETTY sure the guy would've been born when the Emperor returned.

 

This thread and its message is particularly interesting to me. Palpatine isn't my favorite Star Wars character or even, technically, my favorite Star Wars character-who-happens-to-be-an-antagonist. But in his role as the villain, I find him to be nigh insurmountable.

Like it or not, Palpatine is the primary villain in the most important and essential sections of Star Wars: the movies and the Clone Wars. I personally find it inarguable that he is nothing less than canon's foremost villain. Despite what some may say, there is an abundant wealth of information to support (outright prove, really) that Palpatine is the most learned and powerful [dark side?] Force user in the history of the galaxy. In terms of non-Force related achievements? He conquered the galaxy! Once through manipulation, charisma, and devious maneuvering, and he was on his way to doing it a second time through outright force!

Really, if canon keeps it up, Palpatine will tread into Gary Stu territory. He's already the best, or one of the best. in so many different ways that if LFL can't get a villain out from his abyssal shadow, it's a moot point to continue.

I for one, enjoy takes on characters such as Darth Nihilus, Cronal, Abeloth, and other EU favorites. Nihilus is extremely powerful, yes, but that does not take away from Palpatine. It's already established that Palpatine, too, can manipulate the Force in a similar fashion on a similar scale (and, really, on a galactic scale). But Nihilus has been consumed by his power; his greater personality simply fading away until he's just a force of nature, which is different from the Emperor's powerful and persistent psyche. He refuses to succumb to his Force powers. Cronal is a slimey, mean-spirited megalomaniac minus the same magnitude of power. Abeloth seems like the outright manifestation of the Force's corrupt nature -- not a metaphor for it -- which makes her very interesting.

If anything, TOR's new Sith Emperor is the real slap in the face to Palpatine. Same style of clothing, same goals, same title, same Council, same methods, same skills...

 

Now see, that I can agree with. I do happen to actually LIKE Nihilus and especially Cronal, since they go the whole 'completely evil' route in a way completely different from Palpatine's- and no source tries to make them out to be the biggest villain ever. For Nihilus, I've only seen fans argue THAT.

The True Sith Empire, though? I have to agree with you again there, especially since the developers' statements are something to the effect of "They're taking over the galaxy the way Palpatine did, only BETTER!"

 

Could have fooled me.

I doubt the mods would like yet another Palpatine-is-the-most-powerful-Sith-Lord-ever debate, so I'll leave that alone. Just do note that we haven't seen Palpatine blast people to dust with Sith spells, kill with his voice, wipe out entire planets through Force Drain nor raise a vast, nigh unbeatable army of zombies yet.

He was not the first though, and nor was he the last. That said, Palpatine's victory over the Jedi and domination of the galaxy, I admit, was a very impressive feat. He wasn't the most powerful Sith Lord though!

Manipulating the Force in a similar fashion on a galactic scale? Now, no offense, but that screams FANBOYISM to me. Once Palpatine drains all life from the galaxy in a short amount of time, then you can say that. Until then, Palpatine remains inferior in that regard. If he had use of Force Drain, decades of plotting and scheming would have been unnecessary. He could have just began waging a one-man war of destruction against the Republic, wiping out entire planets, and when any Jedi comes to challenge him, he would be able to drain them in an instant.

True enough. However, various ancient Sith after the Hundred Year Darkness also used the technique, and it is once said that Nihilus is only approaching their power, but Nihilus evidently did not have the will or strength needed to master his power, so he was consumed by it.

Sorry, but is this some kind of attempt to make Palpatine look better again?

We've barely seen anything of the Sith Emperor; his usual style of clothing is unknown. We do not know of his goals either, in fact I'm betting his goals are quite different from Palpatine's. Umm, and Palpatine DIDN'T have a Council of what look like Sith wraiths. Same methods? The Sith Emperor uses a massive

 

The way I would recommend looking at it is the way that I do.

I am a movie supremacist; I adhere to the canon level system completely. For example, I recognize that the movies and the stories they tell are the most important pieces of the entire Star Wars canon and that, for better or worse, EU is and should be subservient to that.

But I am not an EU exclusionist; I think the EU exists to supplement and enhance the Star Wars mythos and, as such, great EU heroes and villains are essential. But, you're right, it shouldn't be a competition to outdo Character X.

I can handle a villain who is more powerful than Palpatine -- I believe Abeloth can be established as such -- so long as that is a natural, logical, and well-written part of that villain! If someone could prove that Nihilus was more powerful than Palpatine, I would accept it simply because Nihilus isn't intended to be a carbon-copy of the Emperor or Palpatine 2.0. Regardless of power, using Nihilus as an example, Palpatine is still smarter, more charismatic, and more dangerous. I could also handle a character who demonstrates bigger power than Palpatine -- using Starkiller as an example -- because Palpatine's nature makes him a more behind-the-scenes man with greater subtlety; he ain't gonna be ripping Star Destroyers out of orbit. It still leaves room for the idea that the Emperor is, ultimately, stronger.

(I realize Starkiller is a bad example, since Palpatine ultimately kills him, but my point still stands.)

You see what I mean?

Yep. To me, this is the problem of TOR and, to a lesser extent, Legacy.