[ATTN: Continuity-Hounds] EU Continuity AU Fan-fic Thingy

FORCE HERETIC: REMNANT SPOILERS BY THE BARREL!

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[Please... don?t bite my head off if you don't like the idea of this ? and it isn't actually really an attack on anyone... it's just a little postmodernist plot-hoojib that's bitten me]

First, a little explanation.

As anyone who?s payed attention to anything I?ve said on the subject, my normally esoteric views on Star Wars continuity ? ?a certain point of view?, lots of ?windows? on the GFFA, that stuff ? don?t really apply to the New Jedi Order. Something that?s supposedly got a single story-arc ought on some level to be tightly held together as regards continuity. Well, kinda.

Now I'm not sure if LFL are actively changing the goalposts, if they?re deliberately pulling some sort of postmodernist trick, or if they?ve just lost track of some of the minor aspects of the story arc that a few sociopaths have been banging on about here and at RASSM for the past few years... but some of the recent NJO novels would ? IMHO, at least ? have been quite different beasts if their plots had actually adhered strictly to the limitations of previously-established continuity. That?s not to say they?d have been better, or that it was anyone?s fault, or even that it was possible to do anything else. They?d just have been? different. And some crazy fanboys notice these things, and get thinking?

So anyway... over on the fanfic board, I've begun to go slowly mad... with an attempt to approximate Force Heretic: Remnant as it would have had to have been written if there?d been a continuity-fascist involved... in particular - and for this particular novel, which is only the beginning - as I said here:

• IMHO, after the sort of Remnant/Republic co-operation that we saw at the defence of Ord Mantell in Hero's Trial, the Empire should have been more aware of the right tactics to use agains the Vong... though after Destiny's Way, which also ignores that particular piece of continuity, I suspect things are being changed for the sake of the overall story arc... also, I didn't get the impression from FH:R that the Remnant had anything like the eight sectors (a lot of space, especially in the old Outland Regions) and 200 Star Destroyers that they did when their fleet strength was last listed in Specter of the Past... at one point, I had the distinct impression that something like six ISDs was a sizeable chunk of the Imperial fleet...



• Nom Anor was badly out-of-character. Not badly-written as such, but not the cynical sceptic of the previous novels, and ignorant of things he found out in Destiny's Way - including, IIRC, the reason he went underground in the first place! Unless this is a deliberate reflection of Shimrra/Onimi's influence, it's annoying...



• When we last saw the Yevetha at the end of Tyrant's Test, the Fifth Fleet was trying to figure out "how to ensure they never build a starship again" - I find it hard to believe that the NR would have just turned their ships around and left them to grow their claws back...



• And what's going on with the Unknown Regions? In Vision of the Future, there was a "vast area" of Imperial territory in the Unknown Regions under Admiral Parck and Baron Fel, allied to Thrawn's Household Phalanx, and tacitly tolerated by but totally independant from the Chiss. Then in Dark Journey, the Empire seems to have disappeared, and there was only the overstretched "rogue phalanx" under Fel's command. Now in FH:R, even the plalanx seems to have become a normal part of the Chiss Expansionary Defence Force.

I?m starting this thread so that people can nit-pick the continuity of this thing and the NJO in gene

 

I want to see whether I can lure any of the usual suspects into providing convoluted continuity fixes for this mess?

You sooo aren't clever.

A PETA member could could see through that little trick.

 

Trias: Little trick?

[blank expression]

I'm being too clever for me, evidently... what exactly am I doing?

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Up!

If only because I want to know exactly what I'm supposed to be saying?

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Appearentely, nobody's biting.

 

Apparently. I guess Trias is seeing something no one else is.

 

Well, at least I've doubled the number of replies in this thread...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

[Just a shameless plug for an update over in the fanfic forum]

And, uh... Trias?

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Up!!!

 

A significant portion of the CEDF, Syndic Mitth?raw?nuruodo?s Household Phalanx, has taken an extended leave of the rest of the fleet to deal with encroaching threats. While some would call this action secession and treason, the ruling families have taken care not to stir the populace with such inflammatory talk. Thrawn?s Phalanx has teamed with a cell of Imperials to guard the Chiss territory in a much more proactive manner than the Chiss would ordinarily be comfortable with.While the ruling families pretend to be oblivious to such actions, the average Chiss does indeed know.

-Gamer 5

McEwok, that's what I was lookig for. Shane and Shawn.probaly used that aticle as a souce when tey wrote Remnant. The Hand of Thrawn is a part of the CEDF. Technically on leave. It's no surprise that they've rejoined their people in a time of crisis. Fel somehow got a position in the fleet. The Chiss members of the HoT Phalanx has never not "officially" been a part of the CEDF.

As for the Imperial forces in te UR, Zahn never did give us a clear picture on that. When I read VotF, I got the impression that Thrawn set up shipyards and bases, but didn't have the manpower to fully staff them. Everything was set up; the Empire just had to come in and use the facilities. The Imperial Fleet that Palpatine originally gave Thrawn to map out the UR might still be there, but that's it. I think for the most part, Thrawn used his people's forces to fight the "big bads" in the UR.

has taken an extended leave of the rest of the fleet to deal with encroaching threats.

Which the article seems to support.

 

Thanks, Trias: glad to have finally roped you in...

The key thing I was looking for is the phrase "a cell of Imperials". Parck - thinks of himself an Imperial officer, rather than a member of Syndic Mith'raw'nuruodo's Household Phalanx...

This seems to be true of Fel as well in in VotF, and even in Dark Tide, Fel responds to Pellaeon's recall order. But Dark Journey suggests that his primary role was as Phalanx commander within the Chiss hierarchy - and he's called "ex-Imperial Baron" in the _Refugee_ blurb. IMHO, this is silly, and it looks rather like a rolling retconn - though at least the wobbly status of the Chiss unit makes sense now - their status is, quite simply, wobbly.

But what the Gamer shows - yay! - is that there is an Imperial base, however, small, in the Unknown Regions.

So the question is, how big is this 'cell'? The term implies a small unit, but VotF spoke of the Empire recruiting members of local species, and that 'vast area' of territory as well. Other things we know they have had at certain points include spaarti cylinders, ysalamiri, and enough combat crewers and support infrastructure to keep a Super Star Destroyer combat-ready...

I'd be very disappointed if they didn't have at least a couple of Star Destroyers... but I have an annoying hunch that they're going to be ignored totally. And here's why...

Fel, as Parck's subordinate, ought to have been within the Imperial chain-of-command, which is to say that the Chiss Phalanx should have been - at least informally - at the disposal of the Imperials... which we haven't seen in the NJO... which suggests that Parck and whatever forces he had with him have just... disappeared thattaway out of continuity... which is a shame...

Anyone else think this? Anyone else think that, if I'm right, it's another cheap retconn for the sake of keeping an increasingly ill-fitting story-arc under control?

That's my POV. I may be wrong. But that's the sort of thing this thread is/was/might be for.

Aye?

- The Imperial Ewok

 

I was always under the impression that the New Republic (meaning Luke and Mara) never informed anyone to the extent of the HoT. I was also under the impression that they never wanted the Empire to find out what it was, for the fear that the Empire would become glory seekers again.

In my opinion if one only has 200 ISDs under their command, then 6 is a sizable chunk of their fleet. Their ships are not as expendable as they were under the command of the Emperor. They need to do their best to preserve their offensive and defensive abilities.

 

I'm not even going to get into what Luke and Mara may or may not have said to anyone about anything... the question is, what sort of Imperial forces

And as to those six ISDs... in normal circumstances, yes, they'd be a significant squadron. But for a battle that's supposed to be a last-ditch defence, I'd have thought they'd have been able to scrape together a few more... they don't even comprise the entirity of the Bastion Sector Fleet (13 ISDs in _Vision of the Future_, including three we've not seen again in the NJO), to say nothing of ships under Pellaeon's direct command (which may include up to 100 ISDs doing various funky things throughout the Remnant)...

Put bluntly, it's KJAism...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

UP!!!

- The Imperial Ewok

 

As for Fel and his status in the Chiss armed forces , it's not too much of a stretch for me to imagine that they gave him a position for the duration of the emergency. That is, they've allied with Thrawn rogue phalanx fr the time being.

Were did you get your figures on the size of the Imperial force within the UR btw? From HoT?

In any case,.I'd imagine that the UR has a few Star Destroyers. At least the ships Thrawn originally brought into the UR.

KJAism? Wouldn't six SDs be a force that can be easily defeated? More like Zhan-ism. As many criticisms as I have about his work, I feel he did do the Imperial Star Destroyer justice. Shawn and Shane should be credited with having the SDs be the bad asses they were always meant to be.

 

Ah...

The status of Syndic Mith'raw'nuruodo's Household Phalanx doesn't bother me much any more - it just is ambiguous... the interesting thing is that Thrawn seems to still be nominally in charge as Syndic...

The question of how Fel has flipped from Imperial General Baron to Chiss Assistant Syndic is another matter, though...

As to UR Imperial figures - well, in HoT, they have '250 sectors' (ouch), at least one spartii cylinder, an Admiral, a General, two squadrons of fighters, and a lot of ysalamiri. In the Essential Chronology, we learn that they were also able to fly and fight the Intimidator at one point... which implies either a lot of spit and bailing-wire, or else a relatively decent infrastructure and a few hundred thousand spare crewers... one way of reading Baron Fel's comments in Dark Journey would suggest several complacent Moffs...

My issue with the six ISDs in Remnant is that they're a task-force, not a battlefleet (unless you're Admiral Daala). Now yes, the Imperial Star Destroyer has shown its teeth again since Star by Star... but in fact, the same thing happened in Dark Tide and Agents of Chaos... somehow, Imperial ISDs and the Errant Venture are exponentially more powerful than ISDs serving as part of a standard NR or Hapan fleet, and uniquely capable of simply obliterating even the most powerful Vong battleships with a single salvo ...

But against a full-scale Yuuzhan Vong invasion, you need a full-scale Imperial fleet... since there should have been at least a dozen ISDs to defend Bastion - and probably rather more, not to mention an SSD - I can't help but feel that Pellaeon should have been able to call together a force of a few dozen ISDs for his last-ditch battle...

Anyway, Refugee has maybe made everything even more messy: see here...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Hello?

- The Imperial Ewok

 

we learn that they were also able to fly and fight the Intimidator at one point.

Wait. Are you sure that's not just a personal belief? It's never said who got the Intimidator trashed. For all we know, the Imperial prisoners on board Intimidator made a wrong turn when they tried to get back to the Imperial Remnant and were smashed by some UR nasties.

Is it explicitly said somewhere that the HoT got a hold of Intimidator?

And ya don't need Star Destroyers. The Empire had plenty of small cap ships just as capable of devastating a Vong fleet in the right numbers.

As for the hundreds of thousands of stars things. Billions cn be divided into hundres of thousands. Hundreds of thousands can be divided into thousands. So on and so on. Sure, if there are billions it's more accurate to say billions but whatever. That's people for you. Hundreds of thousands is too vague for me to come to any conclusion. That hunndreds of thousands could add up to billions.

I'm not comletely incapable of minor re interpretation.

As for Chiss territory being small, they got that right. It was stated in Gamer 5 that Chiss territory is small. Also, only a few ships are equipped with nav computers. Most Chiss vessels can't leave Chiss space. They require navigational beacons. Not because they don't have Nav comp technology but because the government wants it that way.

Did Refugee actually say that the UR comprises 15% of the Galaxy? Interesting. Previous EU books gave the impression that the UR was much larger. The fiften percent number is probaly the result of AotCs which states that the Jedi Library has info on 85% of the Galaxy. Of course, I aways thought that was 85% of the known galaxy but I guess not. I'd actually prefer it if that were the case...


See, that's the problem with first impressions and implications. You're boundto get more exact infomation later. Once again, that's why I refuse to come to an conclusion based on that hundres of thousands line.

 

On the size of the Hand of Thrawn territory (for lack of a better name) we only got speculation from Mara.

"Why not?",Mara Countered." Oh, I agree there probaly aren't more than a few colonies out there . But you can bet there are Imperial garrisons scattered all over the place, plus intel centers and listening posts and prbal a few full blown shipyards. And if I know Thrawn, probly a whole network of alliances with natives too"

That's why I had the impression that the territory hadn't been fully developed for Imperial use yet. A basic infrastructre had been set up , but not much else. Bases and had been put in place. Alliances had been established. All for the day when the Empire would come to develop the region fully. Which nevr happened.

Given that GAmer 5 says that a good portion of of the CEDF has taken a leave of absence to join Thrawn's hosehold Phalanx, I'm willing to bet that hey did most of their fighting with Chiss military resources. Maybe with some of the ships orodued by the shipyards that might exist. Even if they do, there'sno gurantee tat the're producing anything. The lights might be on but no one is home.

Of course, that is all Jade's speculation.

I know that he Chiss halted an incursion into their space..

Can the same be said for the HoT space?

Did the Vong wipe out every trace of the Imperial forces in the UR before being stopped at the edge of Chiss space? Does the Hand of Thrawn base even exist anymore?

Wy the heck are they even invading the Unknown Regions? Do they take stupid pills or something?

 

Trias: as to the Big Tim, I don't have the Essential Chronology to hand, and I don't know if this thread has a population of more than two: but IIRC, it was at least implied that after Sil Sorannan got cynical with the state of the Deep Core and the Remnant, the biggest battleship in the Galaxy somehow managed to join up with the Imperial forces in the Unknown Regions and was used to stop one of those blood-freezing threats Fel was banging on about.

Which in turn suggests that some of Parck and Fel's recruiting missions were more successful than the one which tried to snare Luke, Mara, and the Errant Venture. We know that Thrawn was siphoning off troops in one form or another over a long period, and that the New Republic missed things like Black Sword Command and tens of thousands of undercover clones - so what else did they miss?

As to Star Destroyers, all the Imperial ships which we know have been in the Unknown Regions - Admonitor, Inexorable, Reckoning - have been ISDs. There should still be some left

I'm not comletely incapable of minor re interpretation.

You too, huh?

I can live with that - but semantically, I'd have real problems if 'hundreds of thousands' meant upwards of a million - two million is literally millions... so the 'billions of stars' thing just raises some questions that I doubt will be answered. 'Chiss space and the surrounding area' certainly doesn't correlate with billions of stars...

On the other hand, there's always the possibility that the Hand of Thrawn knew where Zonama Sekot was all along, and just nudged the Star Warriors in the right direction... I mean, the Chiss turned up, frogmarched them into the archive, and made it almost too clear that they didn't believe what the Jedi were claiming...

It would make a nice parallel to the blind-side over the Bakuran premiere where we're made to think that he's dealing with Ssi-ruuvi which he thinks are the revolutionary ex-slaves when in fact he's dealing with Vong who he thinks are Ssi-ruuvi...

But I doubt it, really...

The fiften percent number is probaly the result of AotCs which states that the Jedi Library has info on 85% of the Galaxy. Of course, I aways thought that was 85% of the known galaxy but I guess not. I'd actually prefer it if that were the case...

Which would you prefer? I assume they mean astrogation and survey data, which is what's basically lacking for the Unknown Regions...

The lights might be on but no one is home.

Potentially. The point is that Thrawn established some sort of hold over all that space... certainly involving heavy recruitment from native species apart from the Chiss, but under overall Imperial control. And with the exception of some Imperials who have become simply assimilated into Chiss society, that Imperial presence has disappeared... whatever it was, however it was organized, it claimed hegemony over perhaps 10% of the Galaxy... and it has vanished without trace.

There's an explanation missing for something here...

Did the Vong wipe out every trace of the Imperial forces in the UR before being stopped at the edge of Chiss space? Does the Hand of Thrawn base even exist anymore?

You'd have thought that Fel would have mentioned its destruction... Again, the lack of explanation is the problem. I'm not saying that there was a fully-functioning Imperial presence, just that one man can't carve out 250 sectors... there's a big gap in the picture which people are going to great lengths not to fill in.

Why?

Oh aye, and were all those ysalamiri at the Hand of Thrawn simply there on the off-chance that Jedi might turn up? Zahn flagged a lot of parallels between the Hand of Thrawn and Mount Tantiss... the only thing missing was a large quantity of Spaarti cylinders... and we know they did have the technology - a technology which, whatever Mara may have thought, Thrawn apparently didn't have prior to Hei

 

Trias: as to the Big Tim, I don't have the Essential Chronology to hand, and I don't know if this thread has a population of more than two: but IIRC, it was at least implied that after Sil Sorannan got cynical with the state of the Deep Core and the Remnant, the biggest battleship in the Galaxy somehow managed to join up with the Imperial forces in the Unknown Regions and was used to stop one of those blood-freezing threats Fel was banging on about.

The Pride of Yevetha vanished entirely. TheSuper Star Destroyer was dicovered nearly four years later., drifting abandoned nea the UnknownRegions beyond repair

To sentences is all that it has on Intimidator. That's nothing to base speculation on. The Remnant is near the UR. Sil could've made a wrong turn and encountered something really some dangerous obstacle. Natural hazard perhaps. Or some UR nasty.

Which would you prefer? I assume they mean astrogation and survey data, which is what's basically lacking for the Unknown Regions...

Well, it's definitely mplied that there's more than that. As for what I'd prefer, I'd refer it if the UR encompassed more than just 15% of the Galaxy. It gives a nice touch
of mystery to he GFFA. Indeed , it appears Zahn was working on the assumption that less than 25 percent of the galaxy had been explored.

A holographic map of the Galaxy, with rhe sectors of the New Republic, the Empire and the rest of the known
regions marked out in a bewildering array of a dozen different colors. The whole variegted mosaic stretched across perhaps a quarter of the huge spiral, fading away into neutral white where the edges of the Outer Rim Territories gave way to the vastness of the Unknown Regions beyond

Ah

And keep in mind. This is Thrawn's updated map. The areas he had mapped had been colored in and they presumably were part of that quarter of the galaxy. So, Zahn never meant for the Empire to control ten percent of the Galaxy. Heh. This is vey interesting and explains a lot about PreTPM/NJO EU.

Zahn was working under the impression that 3/4 of the Galaxy had not been explored.

This explains Zahn's 200 Dreadnaughts. If onl 25% of the Galaxy had been mapped ..less territory...yeah..... Very interesting indeed. Of course space has a an infinite up and an infinite down (or is that stilltrue? didn't they find the "edges" of the universe or smething? whateve. It's infinite to us)

Course those NJO ms make heUR look a lot smaller, hoiwever

Just because Tatooine is on let's say..the right side of the galaxy, doesn't mean it's above the Galactic plane. Which is the impression you ge looking at those aps inthe books. It could be below the plane. Or in the middle. That's how space is. Above Tatooine could besome of the Unknown Regions...So, the
Unknown Regions aren't just a little corner of the galaxy... The the UR can be all over...

That is,if you want to accept Zahn's 3/4 figure. So, Refugee actually says that the UR only comprise 15% of the Galaxy, eh? Shame. They definitely went with Jocasta Nu's comment whch implied that 85% of the galaxy had been explored. That left a measily 15 percent for the UR. However, it
might still be possible that Nu was speaking of the known Galaxy.

Cn I have the xact quotefrom Refugee please? The one that ays the encompasses 15% of the galaxy?

Anyway...

As to the Imperial presence in the UR, yes I agree that shoud b dealt with someday. However, I don't agree it has to be done in the NJO. If the 250 sectors aren't developed enough for immediate use by the Empire, they're not going to do the Empire much good at te moment. They don't have the time or he resources to develop those sectors during the Vong invasion. They're not going to do the Empire much good currently.

Also, let's not forget that Zahn has a new post HoT /pre NJO book due out next year. Who knows what might happen in that book. He might justexplain some of the things you consider to be inconsistencies Who k

 

Matt: as you said with regard to the Big Tim, 'minor re-interpretation'... to add to your quote, the context is the fact that some Imperial ships left the Deep Core, defecting or going to the Remnant... except the Tim, which turned up in circumstances which suggest the Hand of Thrawn and 'blood-freezing' alien threats... I find it hard to think that astronav is ever that incompetent...

Ah

Quite. Heh.

And what are you doing saying 'Heh', anyway? Isn't that a RASSMism?

Space may be up or down, but spiral galaxies are relatively 'flat' - I have no idea why... the diameter of the disk is the main thing, and while the vertical dimensions are still significant - literally astronomical - they aren't nearly so impressive, and they get bigger towards the centre, and the area which, in the GFFA, has been most thoroughly explored...

But to rationalise - a 'quarter' of the spiral means half-way (by diameter) to the furthest star at the furthest end of the furthest arm... which is awkward, but if we're really pushing it, can include the whole 'halo' around the main spiral - a standard astronomical feature of Galaxies, according to Saxton (on the assumption that the 'spiral' of the main disk suggests that the whole Galaxy is a 'spiral'), and which in the case of the GFFA, apparently includes two 'daughter' clusters... it's not impossible that '25%' of the 'spiral' (loosely interpreted) equates to '85%' of the 'spiral' (strictly interpreted) of the GFFA... and unfortunately, the area of the Republuc is defined in the AotC material... hazily on screen, and sharply in a map of the Galaxy in some of the EU stuff...

As to the Imperial presence in the UR, my issue is that Fel should have something to say about it - but instead, he's simply implying to Luke that it was the Chiss he offered the alliance on behalf of, which is nonsense...

It smacks of either a sloppy retcon - why?! - or some strange LFLism...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Well, like I said , Zahn himself may deal with all that.

 

True...

Though IMHO it's still sloppy of LFL... it's not just me it's bothering with regard to the NJO, and it's not as if they've hinted at something... there's just a gap...

Obviously, they do a lot of stuff we don't notice precisely because there are no problems left visible afterwards, but when HoT was supposed to 'lead in' to the NJO... it's... odd...

But if James Luceno at least references the Ang T'ii, I'll be happier...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Boing!

- The Imperial Ewok