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Back to Midichlorians, Luke has to have as many as Anakin

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by 1badJedi, Jul 15, 2008.

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  1. the_immolated_one

    the_immolated_one Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Sep 24, 2006
    There is nothing within the movies that suggests that it is the mechnical limbs alone hinder Vader's the ability to use the Force. There is really nothing in the movies that suggest the bottom line is per-cell concentration. That is really nothing but fan speculation and it's great. Honestly, I love hearing different interpretations of the movies. I don't really get into reading fan fiction but I do love interpretations of Lucas' movies.

    You keep creating these similes between real world physical limitations and Vader's limitations but that's not the issue that I have put forward. Backpacks and tires are both physical objects which are limiting physical potential. Vader's brain doesn't need arms and legs but yet his ability to use his brain to telekinetically toss the Emperor around like a rag doll is gone as well.

    The things is: There is so little said about midi-chlorians in the movies to hold conversations like this anyway. Ultimately midi-chlorians mean everything and ultimately midi-chlorians mean nothing. All that truly matters is that it was love that killed evil and that's the point. Vader wasn't even as strong as the Emperor but he still defeated him and that was because of the love he had for his son. And that is what the Jedi had lost.
     
  2. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    If Vader's artificial limbs are not physical objects, what are they? They are not a part of him, not truly. They are add-ons. His body did not grow them, they were mechanically attached. They were built, and they were attached. They are not, and never will be, him. Obviously, they limit his ability. Darth Vader could never use lightning, for two possible reasons. Lightning emerges from fingertips, which he doesn't have, meaning he simply can't do it, or a second possibility, that even if physically he could generate it, it would be useless to him, as the instant he uses it, he fries his mechanical limbs and artificial lungs. Either the artificial hands prevent him from being able to create it at all, or they prevent him from using it out of self-preservation, because it would be really stupid for him to do it...either way, the artificial limbs inhibit his abilities. I tend to believe that he can, but doesn't want to fry his circuits theory myself, as he has no problems using the hands to choke people or to throw objects around. The artificial arms in no way hindered his ability to completely destroy the med center at the end of ROTS, so I am inclined to think that his ability to produce lightning is limited by knowledge of what would happen if he tried it, rather than being physically prevented from it. But, because with flesh and blood hands, he wouldn't have any problems summoning lightning, and with the artificial hands he can't, regardless of reason, it diminishes his power. He cannot do everything he should be able to, because of those arms. I don't think he could do force jumps either, any additional height to his jumps after receiving the artificial limbs would be due to the hydraulics/power in the mechanical legs, rather than being Force assisted. Again, the artificial limbs are limiting his ability. There are now things Vader cannot do that a 100% healthy Force user could. He can simulate them, but cannot do them. That doesn't mean he lost any of this overall strength, he maintained his full power, but what is limiting him is having less avenues available to apply that power. He maintains full power, but has less choice in how he uses it, so he is limited.

    I have maintained, and will consistently maintain, that had Vader received cloned limbs, grown from his own flesh, instead of mechanical ones, that he would not have lost any potential. Using the lightning power again, with cloned appendages, he would have his fingertips back, and wouldn't have the issue regarding frying his circuits, so whichever is the cause of his lack of ability to do lightning, it would be fixed.
     
  3. the_immolated_one

    the_immolated_one Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Sep 24, 2006
    ^^^^

    But why does he even need Force lightning?

    Why can't he just crush the Emperor with his mind?

    Why does Vader need arms and legs to crush the life out of the Emperor if it all comes down to a per-cell midi-chlorian count?

     
  4. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    Maybe because the Emperor knows how to block such things? It is more than merely a per cell concentration of midichlorians...there are two aspects to Force potential. His per-cell midichlorian count determines his maximum potential power, but other factors would determine how efficiently he can tap into that power. While Vader has gotten by without needing Force lightning, the truth remains, it is an ability that he otherwise would have had, if not for the injuries. The injuries prevent him from using it for whatever reason, so, right there, he is not achieving his total potential. The injuries cause him to not be able to do something he would be able to do, if not for the injuries. If that isn't a limitation, what is? We know his injuries limit him, that is fact. We have the Lucas quote about his injuries bumping him from 200% of the Emperor's level to 80%, and we have the visual evidence presented in the films, namely that if the injuries had not limited him in any way, he would have been far greater than we see. Even if Luke has the same potential power as Vader, there is no way a kid with a few years worth of training is going to be able to beat someone who was trained in the ways of the Force since he was 9. If they were of equal power, Luke's inexperience would have caused him to have absolutely zero shot. That Vader's injuries diminished him is not really in dispute, all we are trying to figure out is why it is so. What I am saying is that there is more than just raw potential involved. Vader retains the potential, but loses some efficiency in accessing it, accounting for his loss in overall power. If Force potential is like a water reservoir, before the injuries, he has a huge valve to drain it with, one that allows a large flow of water to come out constantly. After the injuries, we have the same huge water reservoir, with the same capacity, but, the hole is clogged up, so you can't get as much water out in the same amount of time...draining the reservoir is less efficient, as the injuries make Vader less efficient at tapping into his Force reservoir. The problem isn't the reservoir itself, its the mechanism to get what the reservoir holds that determines how efficiently it all works. Somehow, Vader's artificial limbs are clogging the drain.
     
  5. the_immolated_one

    the_immolated_one Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Sep 24, 2006
    ^^^^^

    You have a good interpretation about a character needing a mostly whole and natural body to reach their full Force potential and it definitely ties up loose ends like Yoda's diminitive size. It also ties into Yoda dialogue: "Life creates it, makes it grow."

    Good show, Darth Davi.


     
  6. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    This is armchair analysis. I understand the point you are trying to get across with the reservoir and tires analogies, but those are very abstract examples without practical comparisons. In what practical ways is Vader limited? He can't use lightning? Well, none of the Jedi use it (in the films), that's not a huge drawback. We see him choke people that aren't physically in front of him, he communicates telepathically with Luke, he picks up multiple objects simultaneously and hurls them at Luke (all the while moving in with saber strikes), and he blocks blaster shots with his hands. All powers that he did not demonstrate as Anakin (or Vader as early as ROTS). He had made advancements while suited. Several people have deduced over time (mainly given that he can choke Ozzel from a great distance away) that suited Vader was stronger than unsuited Vader (from here on out called "Anakin" for simplicity), and I think they could present a good defense for that case.

    In such a case, to continue your tire analogy, it wasn't that he had the same engine power but poor tires. His engine had indeed grown stronger, and Vader was able to achieve speeds that Anakin could not. The tires were fine, but the engine - while an improvement - was not as great as the improvement Palpatine was hoping for.
     
  7. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    George Lucas specifically stated that pre injuries, Anakin was twice as strong as Palpatine, and that after he gets into the Vader suit, he is only 80% as strong as Palpatine. Its his world. While there is no practical evidence on film that suggests this, we have to take Lucas's words to be the truth. If Lucas says Vader is only 80% of the Emperor after Mustafar, and was twice as powerful without the injuries, we have to go by it. Believe me, I don't like having to work around his explanation, but, Lucas's words are canon. Darth Vader lost 60% of his total potential power because of the injuries. That isn't conjecture on my part, its fact, from the one guy whose word has to be taken at face value. People can speculate all they want about Vader actually becoming stronger, but, its completely non-canonical. I am trying to explain how something that is already gospel according to Star Wars, and explain why it makes sense.
     
  8. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    But there's no way to reconcile Lucas' statement with the film. If Anakin is twice as powerful as the Emperor, he should have simply been able to kill Obi-Wan like Palpatine killed the posse.
     
  9. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    Anakin wasn't mature yet. All you have to do is say that Anakin hadn't reached that top potential yet. The quote doesn't say that he had already achieved a level twice as powerful as Palpatine, just that he had the potential to be that powerful. Combine that, with the fact that Kenobi and Anakin both knew each other's moves inside and out, and I think you have a reasonable if not 100% satisfactory explanation as to why they were so evenly matched.
     
  10. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003
    Unless there was a separate occassion on which Lucas says that Vader (pre-injury) is 200% of what Palpatine was, I believe that quotes was that Vader could have been twice as strong as Palpatine.

    I don't ever think it is explicity said where Anakin is at at the time of ROTS (30% of the Emeror? 40%?)

    If he was at say 30% (with a potential of 200%) during his fight with Obi-Wan, that would help to reconcile what is seen in the films with what Lucas says. Because if in the suit he reaches 80% of the Emperor's power, then that still means he grew in power between ROTS and the OT, but he was still way off from the 200% that the Emperor was hoping for.

    I don't think that Vader was weaker in the OT vs. ROTS, I do believe he was stronger, but he failed to reach the potential Palpatine was hoping for. I don't think it really sank into Palpatine's mind that Vader wasn't going to be the apprentice he was hoping for until some time between ROTS and ANH; Palpatine seems entirely pleased with Vader at the end of ROTS.
     
  11. Sickboy65

    Sickboy65 Jedi Master

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    May 28, 2004
    I don't understand why it is taken as a fact that Vader can't use Force Lightning. Is it just because we never see him use it? By that logic, Palpatine must not be able to use the Force Choke.
     
  12. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    From the Wookiepedia entry on Force Lightning:

     
  13. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    His per-cell midichlorian count determines his maximum potential power, but other factors would determine how efficiently he can tap into that power.

    1st part yes, second part isn't right. Lucas says suited Vader has a max potential of 80% of Palpatine. Not that he lost efficiency. Vader doesn't have Anakin's potential with a decreased access to it, he has a lower potential.
     
  14. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    Old George is very fond of the completely-off-the -top-of-my-head comment when he's discussing the films. Personally I think his comment about being twice as powerful as Palpatine and then 80% may as well have been 100 times more powerful in terms of how much detailed thought he devoted to that idea before voicing it. I know it's his creation and his commentaries have to be taken very seriously, but I think if you took him literally at every word he spoke on SW you'd have films which make about as much sense as waterproof teabags.
     
  15. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    Oh, I have no doubt he was simply shooting from the hip.
     
  16. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    Whether or not he was shooting from the hip in terms of numbers doesn't change the concept. Whatever the numbers, Anakin lost potential and not efficiency.
     
  17. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    Yeah, but potential could mean anything. Force potential, potential to carry out certain physical acts or overall potential to function.
     
  18. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    I missed this post, so I figured I should respond to it.

    I don't think the quote says he had achieved it either, but you had referred to it as though it did so I had assumed you had shifted positions to it. I agree completely that the explanation you just posted is a satisfactory one.

    Back to your regularly scheduled thread:

    Yet Lucas has explicitly said that suited Vader is weak because he's "only half a man." I agree with what you said, but Lucas doesn't.
     
  19. T-R-

    T-R- Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 13, 2003
    You're right, potential could mean anything, except that Lucas was referring to Force potential and everyone knows that.

    What? Lucas is the one that said Anakin lost potential, how does that not agree with what I said? I stated Lucas' stance - i.e. Anakin lost potential. His words.
     
  20. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    He has said that the reason the duel in A New Hope was so slow is because Obi-Wan is an old man and Vader is a cyborg. That sounds more like OT Vader is weaker than RotS Vader than that he just lost potential.
     
  21. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    translation: Lucas didn't think fight choreography was as important as he would later on, and with the level of special effects technology available to him at the time during filming of ANH, it would have been much harder if not impossible to seamlessly integrate stunt doubles and CGI, as was the case in TPM, AOTC, and ROTS. It was his first effort at a lightsaber duel, from which he learned the importance of quality choreography.
     
  22. the_immolated_one

    the_immolated_one Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Sep 24, 2006
    The thing is I think Lucas did show that Darth Vader was not as powerful as Palpatine.
    It's just whether or not you want to believe it.
    Lucas shows it to us that Vader thinks he's going to be some super-Sith with the scene where Vader tells Padme that he was going to overthrow the Emperor because he feels the power coming on.
    Then Lucas shows us this again with the scene where Palpatine tells Yoda that Vader will become more powerful than either of them. Palpatine believed that Vader would be more powerful and what happens with a Sith Apprentice is more powerful than the Sith Master? The apprentice will kill the master because that's the way of the Sith. Palpatine knows it. He believes in it. Palpatine even welcomes it because Vader would have been a Super Sith who could do things that would have been impossible for any other Force to do. However, what happens to Vader? He spends the next 20+ years being Palpatine's boot licker and the first chance Palpatine gets he tries to kick Vader to the curb and replace him with Luke. I say Lucas showed it. It's just he figured the fans needed some help so he threw out that quote because he knew some idiot fanboy like me would read Vanity Fair.
     
  23. Master_Starwalker

    Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 20, 2003
    That's certainly the real reason, but Lucas felt the need to explain it in-universe rather than simply pointing that out. He chose to say that it is because Vader and Obi-Wan are weak. I don't like it either, but those are the facts if G-Canon is gospel.
     
  24. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    He could have done it in a far simpler way. Darth Vader was so much stronger than Obi-Wan Kenobi by ANH, that he was only putting in a very half-assed effort in the duel. That Vader never doubted he would win, and was merely fighting down to Kenobi's level out of some sort of amusement.
     
  25. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
     
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