PT Bad editing in Episode II?

Yep. I hardly consider that an error. If there's an error to be had, then it's the long delay that follows between Grievous raising the staff and walking within lethal attack distance of Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan actually blasting Grievous' chest cavity. Spatially, it doesn't make sense, and looks like Grievous should already have assaulted Obi-Wan, or even that Obi-Wan should have sealed his own doom by shooting Grievous so late that Grievous would still have sent the staff flying in his direction anyway, making Obi-Wan brown bread. These basic errors of spatial dynamics and timing, however, are part and parcel of the action-movie process. It's practically a trope: the ticking counter that always gains a few seconds as t = 0 nears (or a verbal ten-second countdown that always seems twice as long, or half as fast, as it should be).

A slight moment of awkward timing or clumsy repetition -- that's all, in my opinion. And when you try and put yourself in the shoes of Barton / Lucas (remember how tightly films of this kind are edited), it's quite conceivable that they felt Obi-Wan's glimpsing of the platform should be readily apparent, and hence emphasized, to the viewer. In contrast to Anakin, which visual choices like this help seal, Obi-Wan seems to be thinking ahead to his next move, his next retreat. Obi-Wan's doubled eyeing of the platform he's about to drop onto sells the idea that his perception is less muddied and more conservative than Anakin's provincial, wild risk-taking -- a motif that runs throughout the prequel trilogy.

Of course, it's good to be paying sufficient attention to notice editorial quirks like this, but when they get paraded as examples of how a film is poorly edited, it descends into pettifogging. Really, things like this can be filed under basic continuity errors and then forgotten about. ROTS has far more egregious / Grievous examples. One I noticed recently, while still small, made me chuckle. It concerns the Emperor's chair. Despite the fact that Yoda has just flung Sidious right over it, in the wide shot, after Sidious has recovered and leaps to escape, you can see that it has magically righted itself, as if it never flipped over or became perturbed in any way. It doesn't take long for a second gaffe to follow involving the way that Sidious swings at Yoda (final shot of the scene), which is a contradiction of the preceding shot of Sidious and the way he was holding his blade.

Such things are fairly common. Perhaps my favourite contradiction of this sort is in TPM. Watch how Qui-Gon falls; or rather, watch how Obi-Wan, and we, the audience, are made to perceive it. Twice over. Qui-Gon slumps / rolls onto the ground, there's a shot of Obi-Wan reacting (glancing down), then another shot of Qui-Gon slumping / rolling again. "Always two there are..."

In film-making, something's always gotta give.


* * *


As for the editing in Clones, I think, for the most part, it's pretty damn good. Maybe not perfect, but good.

Some very nice examples have already been brought up, and I wouldn't mind bringing up a couple more...

Around the mid-section of the movie, the editing seems to take on a slightly more rigorous, disciplined approach, allowing certain beats to come to life based purely on the way a scene is cut. For example, in Jango's apartment, there's a great, fleeting reaction shot of Boba as Obi-Wan questions Jango, timed to coincide with a lighting strike (or vice versa I suppose), as the tension mounts. With Ben Burtt's formidable sound design, the effect is palpable.

In a scene before the one mentioned above -- the meadow scene -- Anakin and Padme are discussing their lives, which quickly morphs into politics, all in the same, held shot: a sort of medium wide shot as the camera gently pans around the nervous friends, soon-to-be-lovers. The shot is particularly long for what is, in essence, a glorified action film like a Star Wars movie, but there it is. The idyllic quality of the surroundings and the characters' regard for one another are strongly brought out in this shot choice. And the choice to break the shot is just as ingenious. Right as Anakin throws a clanger into the mix -- "Well, then they should be made to" -- the shot and the mood is broken by a closer shot of Anakin squinting in the summer sun at Padme, her back now to the camera as Anakin's defiant persona and masculine impertinence take hold. An excellent piece of editing (in my opinion). Yet still, of course, the beautiful music plays on.

And in a scene following those mentioned above, Anakin's shaken complexion in bed is effaced in an unusual manner: by dissolving his face against an image of clouds. In and of itself, it's a beautiful transition, I think, and one cannot help but be reminded of Yoda's grim rumination in TPM in Anakin's very presence: "Clouded this boy's future is" (and Yoda's visage precedes the scene that leads into this transition). Not to mention the clouds into which the cherubic Anakin later takes flight ("It's on automatic pilot!"), the thick clouds that blanket Coruscant at the start of AOTC, and even Luke's sublime moment of -- joy? fright? -- in TESB, AOTC's mordant twin: "I saw a city in the clouds!" I'll throw down briefly and say I also love a shot following this (well, I love the whole "nightmare" chapter), in which Padme is shown in a very brief close-up gazing forlornly, even longingly, at Anakin as he turns his back, revealing his toned musculature underneath his gauzy undergarment. It's one of the character's (Padme's) many stone-faced gazes that somehow exacts a depth of both facial and artistic expression on repeat viewings. I must just say that the imagery in the middle of AOTC is some of the most striking and brilliant in the whole saga (in my opinion). So painterly, poetic, jaded, and haunting.

If anything, AOTC should be lauded for its ambition and the beauty of its compositions and juxtapositions. They take on a very angular, peculiar, and innovative quality as the film's plot thickens and the troubles of Anakin and the Republic intensify. With the wide-open expanses of Naboo's fields and Tatooine's desert mesas, the film is saved from feeling too claustrophobic, instead taking on the quality of a worldly epic with melancholic undertones. The editing, in my view, ably supports the film, in a rather studied and bookish manner, as it transitions into thematically darker territory, whether the frames themselves be dark, pellucid, or bright.

 

Like you, I used to always be disappointed by the Anakin/Dooku fight, because you don't really see anything in the traditional sense. But now I really like it. It's almost impressionistic.

 

Oh, yes. I like this scene very much, too.
I especially like the moment when they have their joyful exchange (Picture 1- 2) until Padmé musingly realizes that she's starting to feel for Anakin very strongly as well (Picture 3), followed by a more predominant music and a wide shot of the two of them having fun (Picuture 4) in spite of Padmè's concern.





That always gave me the very distinct impression that, even though Padmé doesn't want to love him, their love unavoidable because events and emotions become their own and take over ...

I'd now just like to point to one other scene, which also very much gains quality though the editing, imo: the Homestead scene.

I like the detachment of sound and image here, e. g. when the scene starts and we see Beru in the kitchen while Gliegg already tells his little horror story. Maybe it's just me, but when I was younger and saw the film for the first or second time, I always shortly thought that's gonna be a flashback of Shmi's kidnapping until I realized it's Beru (not Shmi) joining the others (not getting kidnapped)...

It's just quite unusual in Star Wars to separate sound and images like this (although it's rather common in AOTC, curiously).
It goes on in the following when they keep the traditional "dialogue editing" although Anakin doesn't say a word...when the camera is on him, it almost seems like he's suffering from halluzinations or having a bad daydream ... which makes it also fitting that he subsequently stands up (and the camera with him so) to free himself (and the andience) from this nightmare....

....when, of course, it's only about to get worse for him.

 

I think Episode II could have been improved with better editing. I like the movie overall, but there are a few scenes that stand out as out of place.

The love story with Anakin and Padme begins too abruptly. The story goes from their arrival on Naboo, to a meeting with the queen where there is tension between them, to their first kiss on the balcony. We don't see enough of the development of their relationship prior to their kiss on the balcony. There are deleted scenes which take place at Padme's parents' residence included on the DVD of Episode II that I think should have been left in the movie to smooth the transition from their first meeting in 10 years to the beginning of their relationship. These scenes add more of a story to the character of Padme, and her relationship with her family and show us interaction between Anakin and Padme in an informal relaxed setting so we can see their relationship in a more personal up close way than in scenes prior to their first love scene.

The scenes with C-3PO and R2-D2 on Geonosis show have been left out entirely in my opinion. The cut away scenes to the C-3PO/battle droid combo disrupts the flow and sense of intensity of the arena battle.

 

This.

Before the cut to the scene of Obi-Wan arriving in orbit over Kamino, Padme seems to be on a more professional level with Anakin. While walking to the Theed Palace, the most intimate she gets with him is talking about the chains of command and so on. After the film cuts away from Lama Su's office, she's all of a sudden reminiscing about her idyllic childhood. I've got no issue with things happening off-screen, but like you said, there's an obvious gap in the story here. The loss of those family scenes is felt.

In general, I wasn't stoked by how most of the scenes which give Padme a stronger character arc beyond her relationship with Anakin were excised from AOTC and ROTS. For instance, in the final cuts of the films, the only time we see her actually doing her job, as opposed to talking about doing it, is during the Declaration of the New Order. ROTS had the famous Delegation of 2000 scenes removed; AOTC had two similar ones cut.

The first was the scene of Padme addressing the Senate after the bombing of her ship. She actually demonstrates a ruthless streak, all but accusing her opponents of placing a hit on her. This would have been the first post-bombing scene had it not been cut. It displays a nice amount of backbone on Padme's part, showing her manoeuvring to keep the focus of the Senate on the Military Creation Act and Separatist Crisis. It shows her being proactively involved in the central conflict of the film rather than merely an assassination victim. She's depicted putting the galaxy ahead of herself and generally built into a slightly more impressive figure, putting her personal story into context and depicting a greater height from which she falls by the time of her death.

Then there's the scene of Dooku tempting Padme to bring Naboo into the CIS. I don't think this scene was the most essential, but it does have a nice line from Dooku that calls back to Padme's frustrations with the Republic in TPM and lays out the motivations of the Separatists: "The Republic cannot be fixed, milady. It is time to start over."

 

The first kiss with Anakin. Her expression changes too suddenly. Too soon, we are in too tight, with too awestruck of a look on her face.

Several lines of dialogue were cut, and it shows.

 

You know what's funny? My daughter, 6, does not understand the dissolve when Obi_Wan says "Quickly, they're on the move." She is certain that the bottom half of 3PO's body is missing, along with his arm.

The dissolve wipes "up" the screen, and only the top half of his body is visible. She thinks the rest of it is laying on the ground.

Mod Note: Double posts not allowed. See Thread on topic

 

After a rewatch, it definitely could've used better editing, but nothing will bother me more then the lightsaber duel, it's just way too choppy, I'd like to see everything they cut out.

 

I agree with the family scene, it was a great movie without it, but that scene was so good! (Then again, of it was me I would add all the scenes in if I was the editor)

As for The Empire, Luke was on Dagobah for weeks? What? Now I am confused!

 

I always thought we were suppose to think those events were happening simultaneously, not in a chronological sequence... That's why they intercut them. While everything was happening on Kamino, what was happening on Naboo is happening at the same exact time, they basically exist in the same time, just in different parts of the Galaxy...

 

The only bad cuts I can think of are actually the ones made on the AOTC Blu-ray. A couple of shots are switched up during the speeder chase with the "power couplings" line, and then later on when Dooku escapes after battling Yoda, there's a quick overhead shot of Anakin on the floor and Yoda in dismay that originally came after Dooku flying out of the hanger, but were pushed before it instead. Both instances just feel awkward.

 

Bad editing, bad directing, bad cinematography, a trio of mediocrity that, along with some terrible acting and script writing, gave birth to a somewhat enjoyable but ultimately mediocre film.
It is weird that, much in the case of hiring Young Indiana Jones cinematographer, George looked to his sound effects man for such a crucial job.

 

It's fascinating.
You saw three "key words" in the thread's title and took that as justification for an off-topic, mindless bashing tirade. Completely missed the point, but feeling happy now, right?

In case of the OP: That post was almost proof, people bashing ("Bad editing") without any substantial basis and when asked to explain what's specifically bad (when leaving general and arbitrary ground is needed) ---> no explanation or argumentation, instead even more bashing ("Bad everything") , even if that has nothing to do with the question, at all.

That's a terrible debate or discussion culture. It destoys meaningful exchange and, unfortunately, it's fairly common when it comes to "Star Wars"..

 

the directing, cinematography and editing were good. ben burtt is a fine editor.

 

You want bad editing? Watch Star Trek V: The Final Frontier or Star Trek: Insurrection.

 

Well its hard to specifically identify good or bad editing, so many mitigating factors go into the job. But if the excitement in scenes or the correct emotion trying to be portrayed isnt there; if the end product is lacking, and if the pacing is sluggish and meandering then bad editing is readily apparent. And I'm sure that's what any critics the OP was mentioning were referring to.
But I can see there is no contest here with stubborn hardcore fans, that is the real destruction of meaningful exchange

 

But since you were so quick to trash it, it shouldn't be that hard to indentify and explain, right?

Oh, the irony...

 

No sorry, I have to intervene here because you're just placing far too much responsibility on Ben Burtt. He didn't write the film and he didn't direct it either. I think you're misinterpreting the job of an editor and assuming that the director hands over a bunch of dailies put into sequence and the editor chops and changes until he's happy. Wrong - in most major productions, including the prequels, have the director sat with the editor for most of the crucial decisions. There's a very good little piece of footage on the TPM DVD that shows Ben Burtt and George Lucas sat together working their way through a problematic scene (cockpit scene following the escape from Naboo) where the tone is all wrong and the blocking is pretty rubbish. They do what they can with it, but they can only do so much with a shoddy scene and they re-filmed the vast majority of it instead as it was not salvageable.

What this shows, and it is a crucial point, is that editing is not there to make a poorly produced film more flashy, and it is certainly not there to make a bad film good. Pacing is just as much an issue of the script as it is an issue of the editing, and arguably it's an issue of direction as well. Ben Burtt couldn't just delete a bunch of Anakin/Padme scenes and put it all into a non-stop narrative. At the end of the day, he got given a script, and a production, that for the first half tells two stories at once, both of which are wildly contrasting in content and mood. You can only do so much with that and if you think that it's the fault of an editor that there isn't consistent pacing in a film that inter-cuts detective scenes with awkward flirting with gunfights with expressions of forbidden love with asteroid chases with nightmares of dead parents, then you are vastly over-estimating what he is there to do. An editor is there to micro-manage scenes - by choosing shots, transitions, beats and cuts, and perhaps one or two instances of re-sequencing but only when clearly necessary. He is there to polish a production into a finished product, not to take a bloated 2 1/2 hour saga of love and war and turn it into a snappy bit of swashbuckling space opera.

Your real issue clearly lies with the content of the film, from all your posts in this thread, and almost all of the actual points you've made actually point to problems with direction and scriptwriting rather than editing. If you can point out a legitimate example of where the editing has failed in making this film a successful production, go ahead - I would be very interested and more than willing to hear you out. But you claim you can't, despite the fact that plenty of people here have pointed out examples of good editing and two posters have pointed out examples of bad editing (subjectively in all cases, mind). I just don't see what point you're making and it all seems like a bashing of the film in general disguised as a critique of one aspect of the film.

 

Ya.

And as for that blanket attack...

I dunno. I'm wont to see the prequel trilogy as "installation art"; and AOTC as, in some ways, the most "out there" installment of the Star Wars saga.

All the things that people say are bad -- the original post you responded to, Samnz, is a neat encapsulation, I think -- are all the things I think make AOTC so random, so quixotic.

The direction, for example, I find very assured. Lucas lets a certain understatedness or even banality pass, only to allow that to feed into a larger tonal architecture which conveys a subtle sense of estrangement, paranoia, and dread.

This is what makes AOTC such a serious, brooding film, in my opinion, underneath all the ornamentation, all the explosions, all the technological bells and whistles, and the sheer showmanship of the movie.

It's very well-done. There's a tricky, peculiar, meretricious, slightly "arch" quality to AOTC, most of all, I think, that goads you into taking a second look, then almost mocks you once you stumble on a vast mythological labyrinth, which lies just beneath and even "on" the surface.

Stylish film with great repeat value.

All IMO, anyway.

 

I love love love Attack of the Clones.

Bad editing? Nevar!

 

No, No... I do love Attack of the Clones. Sorry to... disappoint you, I guess.

 

It's not the first time a mod has publicly accused a PT fan of disingenuous on a PT forum.

And I doubt, sadly, it'll be the last.