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Balance of the Force and the EU. Does the EU contradict GL?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Matthew Trias, Jul 12, 2002.

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  1. DarthSithLord

    DarthSithLord Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 12, 2001
    please read this


    c. 24,400 BSW4



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    After a century of battle, the Dark Jedi were exiled and eventually took over the Sith civilisation, built it into an empire, and brought about the so-called 'Golden Age of the Sith.' In time, the Republic grew complacent and believed that the dark side had been defeated. Among the many Jedi literature and traditions of this period is the prophecy of the one who will bring 'balance to the Force' and heal the schism. During this time, the fallen Jedi also begin experimenting on their subjects, converting many Sith into deadly Massassi warriors.

    ".... And in the time of greatest
    despair there shall come a saviour,
    and he shall be known as: THE SON
    OF THE SUNS."

    Journal of the Whills, 3:127

    "Tales of the Jedi: Golden Age of the Sith" and "Secrets of the Sith." Entry augmented by Michael Zeiger.



     
  2. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    time tales has some errors in that section. For instance arden lyn during the middle of the great schism(between the jedi, and the dark jedi), had been put into suspended animation. It had been 25,000 years before she awoke from her sleep, during the jedi purge.-gamer #5. The jedi were first formed at 25,000 bby, and according to the Essential Chronology, that was when the prophecy first was created.

    So in reality the great schism began very much soon after the jedi order formed.
     
  3. Galactic_Emperor

    Galactic_Emperor Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2002
    Sorry, but if lumiya being "sith lady" contradicts the movies, then that is not canon. The movies take precedence. Perhabs thats why lumiya have not made appearance for a very long time...maybe LFL has drop her out of the EU...

    EDIT: if the profecy (present in TPM) is the restoration of the balance with the end of the sith, then it makes lumiya non-canon...
     
  4. Nichos_Marr

    Nichos_Marr Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2001
    Sorry, but if lumiya being sith lady contradicts the movies, then that is not canon. The movies take precedence. Perhabs thats why lumiya have not made apperance for a very long time...

    How exactly does she contradict the movies? She became a Sith Lord after Vader and Palpatine died.
     
  5. Sturm Antilles

    Sturm Antilles Former Manager star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2000
    I've explained it too many times.

    One word answer : No.
     
  6. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    "She became a Sith Lord after Vader and Palpatine died."

    Well according to the EU, a Sith Lord Master to be exact(NEGTC, gamer #5, and galaxy magazine).

    I repeat again fans don't make canon. LFL and the continuity department decides what is and isn't canon. They say everything is canon, unless marked with the infinities symbol.

    Sue Rostoni (Gamer #6 - Oct/Nov. 2001):
    Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays. Things that Lucas Licensing does not consider official parts of the continuous Star Wars history show an Infinities logo or are contained in Star Wars Tales. Everything else is considered canon.


    So far the only things marked with that symbol can be found at www.darkhorse.com, under the infinities heading on the starwars timeline.

    Beyond that according to forum policy, "this is not up for debate".




    "That's a question that a lot of people will give you what they consider to be definite answers to. Unfortunately, those definitive answers are often directly contradictory. Within the Literature forum, we treat the whole of the Expanded Universe as canon. This point is not up for debate. Outside the Literature forum, views differ. It's generally not a good idea to mention the Expanded Universe at all in any of the Prequel Spoilers Allowed forums."
     
  7. Nichos_Marr

    Nichos_Marr Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2001
    Well according to the EU, a Sith Lord Master to be exact(NEGTC, gamer #5, and galaxy magazine).

    Close enough :p
     
  8. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    Of course you know it also says that vader made her his "Dark Lady of the sith" apprentice right?
     
  9. Nichos_Marr

    Nichos_Marr Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2001
    Of course you know it also says that vader made her his "Dark Lady of the sith" apprentice right?

    I know that he trained her, because it says as much in the NEGTC and under her entry at TOS. I wasn't aware that he gave her the title "Dark Lady of the Sith". In the NEGTC it says that she assumed the title, along with the name Lumiya.
     
  10. Lord_Darth_Bob

    Lord_Darth_Bob Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Not another one of these threads...

    Lumiya is the most legitimate and arguably most powerful Sith-influenced and Sith-trained Dark Side Adept as of the NJO and the last surviving representation of what's left of the tradition of the DLOTS. And that's canon.
     
  11. Galactic_Emperor

    Galactic_Emperor Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2002
    well, TPM was maked only some years ago, and made references of a profecy that says that the balance will be restored by the "one". As GL said the death of palpatine restored the balance. It was the existence of the sith lords that unbalanced the force. So there cant, acording to this logic exist anymore siths after ROTJ. Therefore, DE and Lumiya simply are non-canon...and i would even say that in the new scenes of ROTJ, we see people in Coruscant celebrating the end of the empire, destroying palpatines statue...therefore the imperials no longer controlled Coruscant imediatly after palpatines death (how could they tolerate that?????), and THAT would make ysard and a lot of EU non-canon......

    We must remember that EU is not GL universe. It is a parallel universe no matter what the forums or anyone else but GL thinks. BUT it is canon because it is an expanded universe that buids on the GL universe, without contradicting that universe...the contradictions were made before the new scenes were show and ep. I and II (and perhabs III ???)were made, so they were unintencional...LFL cannot unmade then so it prefers to consider them canon...if more contradictions appear, everybody should judge them on that spirit...after all GL universe ends within 3 years from now... post-ep III SW will be all EU, much to the chagrin of the purists...all the EU bashing will be over (i hope)






     
  12. Nichos_Marr

    Nichos_Marr Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2001
    As GL said the death of palpatine restored the balance.

    Exactly, nowhere did he say that the Sith Lords were keeping the Force unbalanced. I think he meant that Sith Lords controlling the Galaxy brought imbalance.

    Veers is killed in hoth, so there is no Veers after ESB. however that was show much later after veers existed in the EU, at that time it wasnt know. So post-ESB Veers simply is non-canon...

    I think they had a good idea at the time. Veers survived the explosion and was subjected to serious bacta treatment. He survived, but I think he was crippled or something to that effect.

    with the profecy of no more siths after ROTJ, DE and Lumiya simply are non-canon

    I don't recall a prophecy entailing there would be no more Sith after RotJ.

    we see people in Coruscant celebrating the end of the empire, destroying palpatines statue...therefore the imperials no longer controlled Coruscant imediatly after palpatines death, and THAT would make ysard and a lot of EU non-canon......

    This was also explained in the EU. Stormtroopers subdued the celebration and put a stop to it. Things went out of control for a second and were soon after put back into order by the Imperial military on Coruscant.

    It is a parallel universe no matter what the forums or anyone else but GL thinks.

    In this forum, the EU is considered canon and the official continuation of the story. That point is not up for debate.
     
  13. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Valiento...
    "Of course you know it also says that vader made her his "Dark Lady of the sith" apprentice right?"

    If it says what you quoted, then please cite where you got it from. Because, it most certainly does not say that. In fact, nothing official has ever said anything to that effect with respect to Vader being the one who made her his "Sith apprentice." Not Gamer #5. Not NEGTC. Not Galaxy #3. :)
     
  14. Nichos_Marr

    Nichos_Marr Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2001
    Genghis, even though he didn't make her his apprentice did Vader train her?
     
  15. Trell

    Trell Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 11, 2002
    From everything I've heard he did give her some training. But of coarse the mighty Ghengis12 knows better than I.
     
  16. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Vader trained her.

    What I take issue with is the assertion that an official source has stated that Lumiya was Vader's "'Sith' apprentice."

    I don't take issue that anyone claims Lumiya was Vader's apprentice. (And obviously, I don't take issue with the claim that officially, Lumiya was a Sith)

    But, put the two together and you get something which hasn't been officially stated...
    "That Lumiya was Vader's Sith apprentice."
     
  17. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    "Fueled by rage and an already promising strength in the Force, Brie emerged from the bacta tanks a changed woman. She had given in to hatred, and was renamed the Dark Lady Lumiya. Impressed with his pupil's development, Vader began to hone her Force abilities.

    Vader knew that no secret could be kept from his master, the Emperor. He presented Palpatine with Lumiya as a gift -- as a new Emperor's Hand. Palpatine accepted, and Vader continued her training."-starwars.com

    All the rest is personal interpretation of what was said. Oppinions on the matter vary around the exact details. Dark Lord/Lady, she was at that point in time. A Dark Lord is a sith prestidge class. She also was said to have assumed "Dark Lady of the sith" title at that time. She was also said to be a pupil of vaders. "Pupil" is partially synonymous with apprentice, or student. Also said was she was hidden away on the sith world of ziost during the battle of endor where she built her light whip. So it's all a matter of oppinion, interpretation and semantics on what various oppinions on the matter may be.
     
  18. Nichos_Marr

    Nichos_Marr Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2001
    Vader trained her.

    Okay, so I was right in my above post when I said "I know that he trained her" in response to Valiento. Thank you.
     
  19. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    Val...
    "All the rest is personal interpretation of what was said."

    Correct. That was my point, it didn't say it.

    "Dark Lord/Lady, she was at that point in time. A Dark Lord is a sith prestidge class. She also was said to have assumed "Dark Lady of the sith" title at that time."

    Not so fast. The "point in time" is in conflict. Abel Pena mixed the exact items up when compared to what was already established.

    Galaxy stated:
      "Soon after her recovery, Lord Vader began training her in the ways of the Force. Shira boldly embraced the dark path Vader laid before her, and began a new life. From that moment on, Shira Brie ceased to exist. She became Lumiya."
    That is, Shira Brie existed after her recovery (and transformation into the cyborged perseon) and into not only her training, but her new life path. It was only later that she became Lumiya.

    Abel, in Gamer #5 had this to say when he summarized the same events:
      "As with Vader's age-old injuries, her survival required cybernetics. The woman that emerged was no longer Shira Brie. In her place emerged the Dark Lady Lumiya. Her Force instruction began."
    Obviously the two are completely opposite with respect to when things occurred. "Dark Lady Lumiya" at that time does not automatically mean "Dark Lady of the Sith Lumiya," either.

    What makes Dan Wallace the master is that the latest, NEGtC leaves it as clear as mud. Essentially allowing both, none or either to be true in classic EU fashion. :D

    "So it's all a matter of oppinion and semantics on what various oppinions on the matter may be."

    Agree completely. I just took issue with your statement that some source said something which it actually didn't. :)

    (Side issue, some may laugh at such a non-issue as a mixing up of two events in relation to one another. However, it's a key point with respect to the Bane/Sidious/Maul/Dooku/Vader Sith Order's rule of two when she actually may have become a Sith, for those who care about such things. :) )
     
  20. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    It did say something through interpretation and semantics, there is nothing wrong with interpretation and semantics. All views are right according to the rules of literary interpretation.

    NEGTC says she assumed "Darth Lady of the sith" at the point in time she was given the mechanical parts.

    Star Wars.com supports abel pena's article. You can't say that an error exists, because they are all "canon".
     
  21. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    You said something through interpretation and semantics.

    It didn't say anything of the sort. :)

    And I never called any of them errors. I merely point out that the later summaries contradicted what had been previously established.
     
  22. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    "It didn't say anything of the sort."


    Not entirely correct later summmeries are valid and part of continuity. They say she assumed/renamed/etc to the name Dark Lady, or Dark Lady of the sith just as soon as she had the cyborgenetic parts attached to her. They say that lumiya was vader's pupil.

    Galaxy mag, neither denied nor confirmed any such status. So the later EU sources only did what the EU does best, expanding upon previous sources. Pena did not contradict any previous source, because the previous source never went into that much detail. So they are just as canonical by LFL policy and part of continuity. Your thoughts that they are a contradiction are just a personal oppinion.

    As for nothing wrong with various interpretations,

    "Interpreting is a matter of setting the meaning or the meanings of a work. For some readers, a work has a meaning, the one intended by the writer, which we may or may not perceive. For most critics today, however, a work has many meanings-- for instance, the meaning it had for the writer, the meaning it has accumulated over time, and the meaning it has for each of today's readers."-Sylvan Barnett, Hugo Bedau (Current Issues and Enduring Questions 6th edition, Bedford St. Martin's Boston-New York)"
     
  23. Kreuzader

    Kreuzader Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 23, 2002
    When was the title "Dark Lady of the Sith" introduced for Lumiya in real life? In the Marvel comics or in the post-Marvel sources (Gamer magazine, NEGtC, etc.)? Perhaps that will shed some light on the matter.
     
  24. Matthew Trias

    Matthew Trias Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 1999
    Val,Genghis,either one or both of you leave this thread and never come back. Failing that,no more Lumiya talk. :p And no snide comments. :p :p :p If you two have anything more to say to each other ,take it up in a private conversation via PM.

    Palpatine,If all you're going to do is provide pointless "movies are canon"
    arguments,get out or I'll get the bouncer.

    Perhaps you'd like to tell everyone how the Sith imbalanced the Force with their presence? Wouldn't the Jedihave imabalanced it? Are you saying the Dark Side is so powerful,that just two of it's practicioners could imbalance it?

     
  25. Valiento

    Valiento Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2000
    "When was the title "Dark Lady of the Sith" introduced for Lumiya in real life?"

    It's on one of the marvel covers.
     
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