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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Balance of the Force: Legacy Era

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi_Aron_Tylander, Jul 26, 2006.

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  1. solson17

    solson17 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2006
    first of all let me say what i always say before i post in anything in a thread about the balance and thats that i think its aload of bull, Georgie made it up to make Anakin seem way more important than he actually is, but he did make it up so now its exists in canon and heres what i think:

    I think the force wasn't thrown outta balance at first by the existance of the Sith, one of the fundamental things i've always believe is where ever there is something good, something bad is hiding in the shadows waiting to try and wreck it, it keeps the good in check. When there was Sith to fight and a Republic that needed to be protected the Jedi where virtuous, strong, Respected, because they had the Sith to always keep them on the good path, with no Sith, the Jedi would become corrupt and arrogant the people will start to fear & resent them cause they have all this power but no longer really use it.

    I think the force originally started to lose its balance when the Sith where destroyed at Ruusann, then u have one and eventually two Sith and 10,000 Jedi, so whats really causing the imbalance isn't the Sith at all but the Jedi, then the Jedi become arrogant, and corrupt to the point where they can't be saved, and the two Sith are so powerful that there no bringing them down so the only option is to take all the pieces off the table, wipe the board clean and start new, Enter Anakin, clears out the Jedi, then the Sith, and his son Starts over, first a group of Jedi that are more Grey then light but folowing Lukes ideals eventually become good listening to the force, staying out of the government, so to keep the balance Krayt surfaces creating an order of Sith, he may even have been doing it since the second Death Star was destroyed, we don't really know yet,

    But I think by destroying both sides Anakin restored the balance and its been balanced since, but I hold firm that the whole balance thing is really bull, and i try not to think about it while i'm reading
     
  2. ChildOfWinds

    ChildOfWinds Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2001

    BobaMatt, regardless of how you feel about Vader and Palpatine, what about these 10,000 Sith in Legacy? How can they NOT throw the Force out of balance? The galaxy is a mess in this era too. The Empire and Sith framed the GA and then defeated the GA. Then the Sith took over the Empire. The Jedi are scattered. Galactic citizens are angry about the terra-forming that went bad. The Emperor and his daughter are on the run. Things are worse than they were at the beginning of ANH. Then, to top things off, instead of two Sith, there are 10,000. How can the Force NOT be out of balance?

    And, if it is, what was the point of the prophecy? Why have a thousands year old prophecy about the Force being balanced by the Chosen One, if that balance doesn't even last a century?

     
  3. jfostrander

    jfostrander Writer: -Legacy -Republic/Jedi/Purge star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 16, 2001
    With respect --

    The prophecy spoke only of balance, not that it would last forever.

    If the point is that having the Sith return somehow contradicts that prophecy, then that is true whether it happen 100 years or 1000 years after it's fulfilled. It's not the length of time, it's the return at all.

    Interesting discussion, everybody. I'll try to keep out of it because I think its more interesting if YOU folks do the discussing but i may not always be able to help myself.<g>

    -- John
     
  4. sabarte

    sabarte Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2005
    My opinion? People are saying since the OR was a thousand years of peace, than the NR should have been, too. But the post-Ruusan OR was preceded by a thousand years of darkness. If that's the cycle, the SW Galaxy is still in the middle of a "dark side" one, and will be for nearly another millenia. Probably slowly climbing towards a millenium of peace, just like peace was slowly descending into chaos, but still.

    Exar Kun's Great Sith War was ~4000 BBY. He led into (at least) decades of Sith Lords rising anew just as they're thought defeated. Revan, Traya, Nihilis, etc. Probably more. And then we've got the New Sith Wars starting 2,000 years ago, and continuing until 1,000 BBY.

    Looking further back, we have Bad Things happening 30,000 BBY( Infinite Empire), and 12,000 BBY (Pius Dei crusades), Good things happening about 25,000 BBY (defeat of Zim) 17,000 BBY and 3,000 BBY (defeat of pushy Alsakans). See? Cycles :p.

    (Well, or lazy authors. But, well, what can you do)

    The natural historical balance calls for a thousand years of chaos. Palpatine was going to upset that somehow- perhaps creating an eternity of Dark Side domination. He was stopped. Balance was restored.

    So here we are. Welcome to the Next Sith Wars. We'll be here a while.
     
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    I never said that evil would go away or that the Sith have a monopoly on it. I'm saying that unlike the other evils, the Sith represent the greatest amount of evil there is. They put so much evil out there that it overwhelms the Force. The lines between good and evil have become blurred. The Sith, as we know, were behind the scenes causing the Force to go out of balance. But it is Palpatine who pushes it all the way out by starting the Clone Wars and taking control. The circumstances for Kryat's rise to power are different from Palpatine's. There's still a significant amount of good to keep the Force in balance. But I would wager that if Cade turned to the dark side, it would probably tip the scales.

    Because this time, there are more Jedi active than before. There is the Imperial Knights as well as the Imperials loyal to Fel. The scales aren't totally lopsided this time. Plus, it won't be long before internal strife amongest the Sith begin.
     
  6. MasterCircassian

    MasterCircassian Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 20, 2006
    The Force falling out of balance again takes away from Anakin's existence. I know people argue that it doesn't, but Anakin is a messionic figure, his sacrifice then becomes null and void if the Force is destined to go through cycles, because with each turn his importance diminishes.

    This is just my opinion but the Legacy era should of explored something new, and not rehash the same "Jedi scattered far and wide, and here comes a Skywalker to make things right by defeating the Sith." There are ways to still keep it interesting without the story having to be the Jedi facing extinction and someone comes and turns it all around. Legacy is almost like saying what would KOTOR be like if we gave Han Solo a lightsaber and sent him back in time.
     
  7. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    I think we agree more than we're letting on.

    I'm with you that the circumstances of Krayt's rise are different, I'm just saying that there's no telling if the Sith can ever rise to the same level.
     
  8. Emperor3171

    Emperor3171 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2000
    You mention several times the Jedi becoming corrupt, do you have any examples? The Jedi Order became arrogant, no doubt about that. That and its stagnation compared to the dynamic Sith Order of Darth Bane is one of the prime reasons the Jedi Order was destroyed by Bane's Sith Order (if you think the Sith sat on their hands for a thousand years until Sidious came along, you're smoking something and not sharing).

    Darth Bane's Sith Order was so powerful, so knowledgable in the Dark Side, that the Force itself intervened directly to create Anakin Skywalker in order to destroy the Sith and restore Balance to the Force. That means Darth Karyt and his 10,000 Sith are NOT the threat that Darth Bane's Sith Order was to the fundamental structure of the Force. Whatever advantages and/or knowledge Darth Bane's Sith Order had, Karyt's obliviously lacks. So the balance is preserved.
     
  9. SEPARATESICKLEROOK2

    SEPARATESICKLEROOK2 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 1, 2003
    It can almost be seen that the very presence of the Sith is an invitation to create balance. By TPM, the Sith had been dormant (quiet but existant) in the galaxy, and the Jedi rose into the thousands. Immediately they complained of the force being out of balance, and that their force powers were diminishing (Mace Windu, AOTC). At that point, there were only two sith. There must always be a chosen one, one born of the force itself, to bring balance to itself. This sadly means that the force using herd must be thinned. With Anakin's rise and help, the sith wiped out the Jedi order and brought it down to two, Obiwan and Yoda. They died, leaving luke vs two sith. At the end of ROTJ, there was no sith, no jedi, until it was over. Luke became a true jedi at the end, but not until Vader and Sidious were no more. For a brief second, there was balance= no jedi, no sith. This was momentous if you think about it. "For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the protectors of peace and justice in the galaxy", and the Sith derailed them essentially in one night, and finished them off in a decade or two. Then there was Luke, who took up the Jedi way and began rebuilding them. The imbalance started anew with Luke, the one canonical force user in the galaxy.
     
  10. SEPARATESICKLEROOK2

    SEPARATESICKLEROOK2 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 1, 2003
    The New Jedi Order is inherently faulty, being that Luke was the child of a one time Jedi, he remade the Jedi order by encouraging family attachments. The Jedi are selfless, therefore they have no attachments, especially to family (where deep seated passions and emotions influence actions). The old order was wise to prohibit this type of thing. This is clearly why Luke's jedi order must die. In Betrayal, Leia is tampering with the military end of the conflict to preserve her family and friends. All the Jedi in the new order have relationships that often conflict their actions into self serving ones. The truth about Luke's jedi is that they walk the path of the sith, and i suspect that the sith numbers in the comic Legacy are some of his jedi. Of course there is imbalance in this future, where the sith outnumber the jedi in the thousands. it will be a backwards sort of renewal where Cade must whittle away at the sith forces until balance is restored. In Jedi Bendu history, there was once upon a time no users of the force, and then the force became known to one, who established an order. From within this order came the Knights of Ashla (sith). The force is in balance when the use of light does not exceed the use of dark. We must remember that the force is in all things, good and evil, and that the universe is constructed along those lines. Even the Rodian smuggler is a unit in the force; he may do good things on a monday, and bad things on a tuesday, this is balanced. The trouble comes from the force "users", who think they are doing the will of the force, but may only be using the force to do their will. This applies to both the Sith and Jedi.
     
  11. Jedimarine

    Jedimarine Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 13, 2001
    The theory I've begun to cultivate is that "balance" is less a specific idea then a vague view of the force in harmony. Allow me to explain.


    The discussion has gone back and forth as to whether the Sith cause inbalance and whether the destruction of said Sith will cause "balance". I think what has happened is that either the prophesy was hijacked by warhawk jedi or that 2 parts of prophecy became one.

    IMO "inbalance" is similar to "disturbances" felt by the jedi all the time. It is the feeling of inequity or trouble in the natural flow of the force, cause by anything from an child hurt on a playground to an entire world being blown away. It certainly varies in degree. But when the instances of trouble and dischord continue regularly, this causes a "permanent disturbance" to the natural flow of the force and thus "inbalance".

    How the Sith play into this? Since they have a direct link to the force, they can manipulate it more so then random events in the galaxy. this allows for their effects and presence to be more strongly felt. As the film era moves on from TPM to AOTC the jedi become more concerned with Sith actions within the force (even though they are blind to most of it)

    This idea that "inbalance" was not caused by Sith can hold some weight because suffering, anger, and conflict beyond the Sith was widespread. Even by TPM the Old Republic was fracturing in it's corruption...corruption that has "yet" to be contributed entirely to the Sith *of course if some author comes out with "sith are root of all evil in the galaxy", we'll have to swallow that trash too*. Perhaps the "inbalance" first discussed was simply a restoration of the natural flow of the force...or in more tangible terms, universal peace and justice.

    Now as the Sith show themselves, the Jedi dedicate the philosophy of "balancing" the force to the destruction of the Sith...and oversimplification of the galaxies problems, but certainly it's target (the sith)was the primary disruption to force balance. This added to the prophesy that Anakin would somehow bring down the sith and bring "balance"

    Which is why Yoda says the prophecy may have been misread.

    The Prophecy of the chosen one was not that he would destroy the sith...it was that he would eventually restore "balance" meaning the natural flow of the force. *As some have noted above, perhaps even the jedi themselves are responsible for "inbalance" and therefore the chosen one must also bring balance by thinning the Total number of force users, not just the sith. But this is a secondary theory.* Anakin's path, though it turned to the darkside, did eventually lead to a balance in the end, with a galactic peace achieved at Endor, and the destruction of the Sith being the special sauce on top!

    So what does this mean for future balance?

    Easy

    Post ROTJ EU is "Inbalance"

    From the moment the story goes on...the Empire DOESN'T immediately crumble...the Jedi go on and eventually the Sith...even the Ssi Ruuk in the immediate aftermath indicate that the flow of force is not maintained.

    Now you can look at this 2 ways:

    Film First Way: The Stories of the film are the essential of Star Wars, all other stories are simply further tales with the same characters but the core philosophy of the Force and it's balance are completed in the films and therefore are not to be considered in later work. This could be a G vs. C cannon situation.

    EU Way: Balance of the Force happened for a brief, shinning moment at the end of ROTJ. It lasted but briefly as celebrations, joy, and a momentary pause in conflict was observed throughout the galaxy (As George so vividly showed us in ROTJ 2.0)...but the story does not end, and for the story to not end, the balance must be shaken...and within hours of the victory, the balance is disturbed again and there hasn't been a moment like it since...it may not happen again for years, millenia even. Perhaps "balance" of the force can only be a moment in time. Imagine the eye of a hurricane...for a few moments in the chaos, peace...in the le
     
  12. Emperor3171

    Emperor3171 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2000
    The problem with this theory is that Lucas himself likened the Dark Side to a cancer on the Force. Balance cannot mean equal numbers when it would mean half your body is cancerous. To my knowledge, nothing could survive having half its body consumed by any form of cancer. So balance is not about numbers, its about the inherent nature of the Dark Side, the "unnatural" part of the Force. Bane's Sith Order had some manner of threatening the Force itself, hence the need for a Chosen One to destroy them.
     
  13. NelanisGhost

    NelanisGhost Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 24, 2006
    Just don't get where so many force users came from.

    We had a 365 trillion person reduction in the galaxy.

    Then, magically, 20,000 = force users come out of nowhere, when their averga number was 10,000 Jedi at their height. Meaning, most of the forces users did not slip through the cracks. The government gave the Order full permission to acquire them.

    So even with the entire unoted government, at the height of their civilization, only 10,000 force users strong enough to be jedi, and not great jedi, regular jedi, existed.

    So how did we get double that number in a fragmented, smaller, less comprehensive galaxy? Yes, more can slip "through the cracks", by why would DOUBLE the number be force users? They don't exactly grow on trees. Luke spent 40 years, with complete government compliance, and found what, about 300 force users? A handful that are mighty enough to rival the old order?

    S0 what made the next 40 he was alive and the next say 60 after that to exponentially increase the amount of force users?

    It should be addressed because it's weird.
     
  14. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    That doesn't mean anything. There are are 100 quadrillion beings in the galaxy, so the fatalities would be quickly and easily replaced. Hell, a much larger proportion of Earth's population died in World War II, and recovery in that respect was almost instantaneous.
     
  15. sabarte

    sabarte Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Indiscriminate breeding?

    Seriously, there's reasons it's a bad idea :p
     
  16. ZombieProblems

    ZombieProblems Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Heres the thing, and this should end any discussion of the validity of the prophecy of The Chosen One
    and whether or not the Sith should come back...

    If you want the STAR WARS universe to continue, you need conflict. In order to have conflict you need
    opposing forces. If balance has been restored and all evil has been banished from the galaxy, then,
    thats it -- no more conflict, no more STAR WARS.

    So basically it comes down to this: if you want to continue reading and enjoying STAR WARS EU stories,
    you must accept the fact of conflict; opposing forces; yin and yang. Otherwise, methinks these STAR
    WARS stories will be pretty boring!

    An excerpt from book 1 of STAR WARS: THE ENNUI-MALAISE WAR

    Luke: "I sense a balance in the Force! Everything is AOK!"
    Mara Jade: "I KNOW! Everything is always OK now that balance has been restored."
    Luke: "Yep."
    Mara: "Mmm."
    Luke: >whistling<
    Mara: "I'm bored."
    Luke: "Me too. Wanna watch tv or something."
    Mara: "*Sigh*.. I suppose..."

    (Later on, in bed, watching a super happy tv show; since balance has been restored, there is no more conflict, so all tv shows resemble the Teletubbies.)

    Mara: "Luke?"
    Luke: "Yeah, Mara?"
    Mara: "This might sound crazy, but, do you ever wish that, like, the Force would be thrown out of balance again? You know, give us a reason to exist? Cause, like, now, life is really boring."
    Luke: (leaping out of bed) "Never! My father restored balance to the Force! Everything is good now and at peace and, and... Ewoks dancing around and... and, uh... um... hmm... yeah..."
    Mara: "I thought so."

    The End

    Stay tuned for book 2 in the turgid STAR WARS: THE ENNUI-MALAISE WAR: THE GALACTIC BOURGEOIS!

    If you want no more conflict and you want a self-contained story where evil is vanquished for good and for all, just watch the movies and don't bother reading the EU. Otherwise, accept the fact that evil will return, and good will continue to fight it...

    So far the LEGACY comic is, hands down, the coolest EU material I have ever read; it has an urgency and a sense of purpose that is more or less missing from the lions share of the EU. And, I'm sorry, but the Yuuzon Vong were nowhere near as cool as the Sith. In short, I'm glad the Sith are back! I'm glad the Empire is back! And I can't wait to read more about these supercool Imperial Knights!

    Thank you Mr. Ostrander for this exciting, interesting, and compelling new chapter in the STAR WARS universe...
     
  17. solson17

    solson17 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2006
    I think if the prophecy never existed Anakin woulda been just as important anyway, he still turned out to be a hero for the Rebellion and the Galaxy, he killed the Emperor which in turn brought the entire Empire down, bringing an end to corruption and the opressive rule over the Galaxy, look at it beyond the Force and how just Empires destruction restores peace to the Galaxy, he may have been destine to balance the Force, but I don't think that balance is as important as everyone thinks it is, and by Lukes time do they even know of the prophecy at all? Or do they just know what we knew when Return of the Jedi was released
     
  18. solson17

    solson17 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2006
    I totally agree with this about how Krayts Sith are no where close to the Sith Papatine and the rest of Bane's order were. Thats kinda the point i was trying to make but u just said it better, that the force itself intervened because the Sith had become way to powerful to be destroyed just by the Jedi that exist because they had become arrogant, corrupt, as for being corrupt, I'm not saying there as bad as the Senate, or the Sith themselves, but I believe the moment they willingly got involoved in a war, with no discussion, or mediating that they betrayed there values, Mace Windu led an Assault on a Soverign World to Rescue 3 trespassers being executed fro espionage, no negotion, he immediatly went in force, the war shoulda been left to the Clones and there commanders, not the Jedi.
     
  19. Skywalk272

    Skywalk272 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 16, 2000
    First:

    Balance of the force needs to be looked at more than just an object of Sith vs. Jedi.
    It needs to include ALL beings, force uses or not. For they all are in truth "in the force"

    All are connected.

    Therefore, when greed, corruption, and ulitmatly tyranny and fear take over, with no regard or respect for life . . THAT is when the force is out of balance. The Darkness has its place but it it must serve the light.

    I've seen the argument that the side effect of too much light is arrogance and complacency. Yet I don't think too much pride or lazyness throws things out of balance. A little fear is good. A little fear motivates us to keep learning, to keep asking the tough questions and asking why? That would be the imablance of light, but we don't hit this in the Star Wars saga, rather, we hit an imbalance of darkness.


    TWO:

    I agree the Sith rise again a little too soon for me to believe. Iwould rather the direct decendents of our favortie characters not be the ones to turn dark again (ie. Jacen) Yet authors decided to give us characters we already knew and could relate to in order to recycle the story. They also wanted a lineage we could trace. I mean look at those comics . . The decendents of Quinlan Vos (and that pink gal without the nose who loves his master), Jaina and Jagged Fel, Luke and Mara, and even Mission Vao are made obvious. I wonder who else will pop up? So I guess I understand.
     
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