Saga Balance of the Force.....what does it mean? (Warning: TLJ Spoilers!)

First things First: THIS POST CONTAINS SOME TLJ SPOILERS! (I couldn't find how to hide them with a spoiler tag so i have just changed the font to a grey)

The Jedi believed that Anakin was to bring Balance to the Force....But what does the balance of the force mean?

I think the Jedi believes it means the Force without Darkness? "You were supposed to destroy the Sith not Join them" "Bring Balance to the Force not leave it in Darkness". But that isn't balanced.....So were the Jedi just arrogant?? or Ignorant? That surely the Force doesn't need Darkness?

Snoke Mentions to Kylo that the reason for Rey's immense strength in the force is due to Kylo being Powerful in the Dark Side of the Force (I can't find the exact quote, but it's something along the lines of as Kylo grew more powerful the force would balance things out)

Going by this Logic Balance means that Light and Dark need to be Equal (or thereabouts) that means Anakin did bring Balance to the Force.....before the Great Jedi Purge there were hundreds if not more Jedi but only 2 Sith. Post the Jedi Purge...... 2 Jedi and 2 Sith... That means a few things A) Balance doesn't necessarily mean Peace and Tranquillity B) If anything Luke actually knocks the force out of Balance again. Which explains the Rise of Snoke and his power in the Darkside.

This raises interesting questions for Episode 9..... If Rey or Kylo realise this, they know that they either both have to live or both have to Die..... It could be the birth of the "Grey Jedi" or something similar where they use both light and dark side... Understand the need for Balance.

 

Balance is having the light and dark without one taking over the other. The dark side can (and has) taken over the light during the original saga. And Anakin restored the balance by ending the cause of imbalance: the Sith.

No, the Jedi don't believe in the Force without a dark side. None of the quotes you posted say that they believe in such thing. In fact, throughout the saga they keep warning about the dark side, which contradicts that idea right away.

They believe in not giving into its dark side. Anakin helped leave the Force in darkness, by having the dark side take over the light, thus breaking the balance.

No. The Force is not about the number of Jedi and Sith. The Jedi are not the light side. The Sith are not the dark side. They use it. The Force is an energy field created by all living beings, and all of them are connected to it and able to connect back and use it. The Sith cause the dark side to take over. Hence why their destruction was a requirement for balance.

There's no such thing as a 'Grey Jedi'. That's an oxymoron.

 

Well that Contradicts itself immediately does it not? With Both Vader and Palpatine destroyed but Luke still alive, It's not balanced...especially when Luke begins training new Jedi....

I'm not saying they don't believe in the Dark Side? I'm saying they believe that those connected to the Darkside unbalance the force..... Hence Obi-Wan screaming at Anakin that he was supposed to Destroy the Sith and Bring Balance to the Force....Without the Sith, there are only the Jedi?

That doesn't make sense.....So If you use the light side, you don't unbalance the force but if you use the Dark Side you do? That doesn't define "Balance"... I wasn't think Numerically as such...More along the lines of their relative strengths connected to each side of the Force.

How is it? Pretty sure "it's a thing" in some of the EU? Could you not have someone that uses both Light and Dark sides of the Force?

 

Again, the Jedi and Sith are not the Force. It's balance of the Force, not balance of the Jedi and Sith.

Without the Sith, there's balance. Without the Sith, the dark side is noy being exploited in such a scale to take over the light.

But that's not how it works. What is the dark side? Anger, fear, agression, greed, oppression, etc... You not acting in anger, fear, agression, greed, etc... doesn't mean anger, fear, agression, greed, etc cease to exist. They exist. They are acessible to everyone. The choice of not acting under those is balanced. The light side is the opposite. It doesn't seek control, it doesn't take over. It's balanced by default.

Imagine balance as keeping the dark side in check. Which is what every balanced individual does.

The Sith used the dark side in such a scale that the galaxy was virtually left in darkness. The 'good' (which is not just the Jedi) was made extinct, silenced and reduced to almost nothing.

Well, the EU is known to make up stuff that doesn't exactly gel with the movies, but no, it doesn't even exist in the EU as far as I'm aware.

You could, but they wouldn't be Jedi.

 

Not saying that they are....going by what's talked about in the ST users of the force impact the Balance? Hence why the force made Rey stronger?

Not sure I agree.... at least in the current Mythos of the Force.... I think they're going for a "there can't be light without Dark" "Yin and Yang" approach.... which means more users of the light side of the force makes the lightside take over the dark and vise versa

Does that mean the Jedi are unbalanced? As the Jedi are supposed to be void of these emotions or suppress them? They embody all the virtuous traits and emotions, where as the Sith (or equivalent) embody the opposite...... So do they require each other to exists (given the Yin and Yang approach)

It might not, I just know the term "Grey Jedi" must have come from somewhere, I certainly didn't make it up

Fair point, but it could be where the Mythos is heading, a new type of Force user that has both Traits (kept in check) to embody balance.

 

Every living being is capable of impacting balance at various scales, they are all connected to the Force. It's not something from the ST.

No, the number of users don't make the Force or any of its sides. Indeed, there can't be light without dark, and vice versa. That's what I've been saying. Sides of the Force, not individuals of a certain sect or affiliation.

They are supposed to be and they are. As individuals, the Jedi for the most part are balanced or strive to be. That's what the Jedi way is about.

No. Again, you are thinking about factions and numbers when the Force is not that. The Force is accessible to everyone. Everyone can follow its light and dark sides. Not following one doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It means it's not being followed.

Fans did, by ignoring what the Jedi are about.

That's impossible. You don't keep the dark side in check by using it. That's a complete contradiction and a disregard for the the basic pillars of the saga. You keep the dark side in check by not using it. By not giving into it.

 

True, but I can only assume that a users connection to the Force as a bigger impact on Balance, stronger the connection, the bigger impact it has on Balance

Again that's not what I'm saying (sorry if im not being clear) more to do with the strength of the connection has a bigger impact (what I'm saying above)

nope still not (see above). But by that logic - surely the Force is constantly balanced? it's a permanent state....

So just to be clear.....Balance (in an individual) is feeling Anger, but don't get Angry, sometimes feeling like you want to be greedy but be Generous instead etc? I agree with that to a degree. But I still feel like the idea of the Jedi is to be without the Negative emotions entirely, which is imbalanced....which would leave room a new force users that does openly feel Negative emotions. That's how I see it anyway.

So just to sum up your PoV (cause we and will continue to go round in circles I feel)... There can be balance with only Jedi...but not the other way around / The amount of Jedi / Opposite Equivalent doesn't necessarily effect the Balance of the Force?

 

Not necessarily. It can, but there's no correlation.

The Force in its natural state is balanced. But beings can affect and/or maintain its balance through their actions. The Sith did it in a major way to cause an imbalance.

How? Jedi feel emotions (positive and negative) but they don't act emotionally or let emotions control their actions.

Someone not acting emotionally doesn't prevent others from doing the opposite. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

Yes. The Force is not dependent on the existence of Jedi. But the Jedi (as guardians of peace and justice in the Republic) help keep the Force in balance, because they act passively, selflessly and symbiotically with it.

 

I have never believed this. That would make the prophesy a self-fulfilling one.

Anakin was exactly what the force needed.
1. Palpatine was hyper-aware considering he had to have his guard up 24/7, unlike two decades later. Nobody was going to take him out head on. Poor poor simple Mace.
2. They needed an insider that didn't know they were an insider. They actually had to be committed to the cause with the flicker of conflict being so small as to be undetectable. This wasn't going to be the overnight, two week or even two year inside job. It was going to be an inside job so well done that any question of the insider's allegiance by others would be met with Palaptine responding with an obscene gesture, tweeting a picture of the tin foil hat guy and Imperial bullying of the accuser.
3. The conflict needed a long fuse. Baking a kid to young adulthood is quite the long fuse. What other Jedi had that?
4. This inside job is going to be one that nobody would willfully apply for. It isn't just a death sentence, but an unbearable two decade ride through Hell.

The Jedi were not corrupt, but they had become corrupted. Like Noah's flood (phase one), the population needed to be cleansed.

Luke killed the Sith and made the fault of the old Jedi Order clear. He now had proof of how to carry the force forward. That is until he met Rian. Like Anakin's saber, that is another story (that should never be told).

I'm not really into the abacus Light/Dark users theme. "Anybody can be a Jedi now". Sure. You just need to talk your friend into being on the Dark Side so you can be the Light Side. That's where rebranding comes into play. It is fun to talk about academically however (if you can even use that word for Star Wars talk).

What *I* would have wanted was the balance to be the Compassionate Pragmatist. Nothing seems to support that in any version of canon.

 

George Lucas in Time Magazine 2002:

"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in 'Star Wars.'"

That's the balance - and it still applies.

 

I guess the question is.. ."what does that look like in the Star Wars Universe?"

 

Well, I assume that nature has a way of balancing things out by providing light where there is darkness and darkness where there is light, to keep the cycle going. Perhaps Snoke's success with Ben and the FO happened as a natural response to Luke's progress with the new Jedi? I mean, what the FO does unbalances things in favor of the dark side, but could it be that the Jedi, no matter how compassionate they are, actually tip the scales by attracting darkness to match their strength - because that's an unavoidable, natural response?
Could it be that for the greater good, people should just stop manipulating the Force and let it balance itself out?

 

I think that might be it.... I mean Snoke says that Rey's Power in the Force is in response to Kylo's growing strength in the Dark side....So the reverse is likely true also. Snoke's success with the Dark side and Ben might be a natural response to Luke and his Jedi Students....But then half of the Students are wiped out and Luke goes into exile, meaning it's out of Balance again, so then Rey begins to rise...It's this never ending up and down....back and fourth....push and pull, that make me think the Ending to the ST will be something along the lines of Rey / Kylo realising this and must allow each other to exist OR they destroy each other entirely

 

It really appears to be what it has turned into. And I absolutely hate it. I doubt it was Lucas' intent.

 

What did you see it as before this?

 

I don't see the problem with it, myself. I think it's in line with GL's teachings and not something it has turned into.

 

How? Anakin didn't need to fall in order to fulfill the prophecy.

What population?

Luke didn't kill the Sith. Anakin did. And Luke followed the old Jedi Order's way (the Jedi way). He was compassionate and selfless and that was what sparked Anakin's return.

Exactly. Keeping the dark side at bay, in check. It's baffling how many people make it about Force 'users' or particular sects and orders.

 

Well because you see balance as keeping the darkside in check.....which is different to how others view it.....it's not baffling... I still think you're missing our point, it's not about 'users' or 'sects' It's about how strong their connection is to the force and thus having a large effect on it.

 

Because that's what it is. Balance is not about an individual or its affiliation. It's not about 'X Jedi therefore X Sith'. It's not about no dark side. It's not about how strong one's connection is. It's about the struggle against the dark side, against giving into temptation, because the dark side corrupts, consumes and takes over. It's about following the 'good' side.

In your original post you made it about number of users and sects. People with a strong connection can have a large effect on the overall balance, but so can others who don't have such a strong connection to it.

 

I'm basing it all on Average beings cancel each other out..... So the Balance is more effected by those with a strong connection to either side of the Force

 

Balance as in the natural way things are meant to be. The Force and the Dark side of the Force in balance is the natural state of things.

What the Sith did in the prequels was use the Dark side to unnaturally change the balance of the Force by creating the split in the galaxy, cause living beings who were getting along and even working together to fight against each other and get the Jedi who were guarding the peace to work against life because they were attached to a political body. It was understandable that they did it but that was the trap.

Not at all. They want it in balance which means guarding against and recognizing the darkness. The Jedi flow with the natural state of the Force. They follow the Will of the Force while the Sith want to impose their will on the Force.

Not necessarily. As others have said natural balance might be 2/3rd's Light and 1/3rd Dark. That doesn't matter really as Balance is the natural state over time.

Irrelevant. Despite what Lucasfilm's Story Group says the Sith were only two for thousands of years before TPM and the Force was in balance.

Not at all. The Sith "ruled" and terrorized the galaxy and the Force was still in balance. The Chosen One only appeared when the Force was out of balance. There is no indication that the Force was EVER out of balance before and if it was then we don't know about it and so long ago it's irrelevant to this story. Evil existing doesn't put the Force out of balance.

No, Luke didn't do anything unnatural to take the Force out of balance. Snoke looks like he's been around for thousands of years and he never put the Force out of balance. The Sith did.

Balance in the Force had been mentioned a couple of times in the ST but in a slightly different but connected way in terms of it being part of the "tension" between all living things and the Force.

Evil existing is part of the balance. The Sith did very specific things to create the imbalance and the First Order is not doing any of that.

Really there isn't much to go on for the ST as to balance and of course Lucas never used the term Light side in his movies though one can infer they used the term in-universe but for him it was the Force and the Dark side and the Sith agreed they used the Dark side so ergo the Jedi used the Light side.

The point is that if things could balance out naturally then they would but the Sith were making it so they couldn't hence the midi-chlorians created Anakin or the Force created him through them or the midi-chlorians and/or the Force reacted to Darth Plagueis who was trying to create life unnaturally which tipped the balance and Anakin was vergence created to deal with it.

 

If you play with the contrast on the e reader version of "The Jedi Handbook" released a few years back you get the text below. It was released in a box set that also has the "Book of Sith' In the print version it is "redacted" but if you look closely this is what you get.

The Prophecy of the Chosen One



In the time of great despair a child will be born who will destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force.



All Jedi students, able to see, should understand that fulcrum balance does not mean that good accepts the existence of evil in the way that sunrise gives rise to shadow



The dark has nothing to do with balance



Balance is the circle of life present in monolith systems, but beware, the greed of the dark side acts like a cancer on the Living Force and the Sith are its chief agents



The prophecy of the chosen one is both simple and seductive



Some may think that the prophesy elements entails that the Jedi must do nothing to combat evil except to wait for the chosen one to arrive



This temptation toward laziness should be shunned for the Order exists to serve others



So even if the prophesy is true the Jedi must act as if it were not



Responsibility does not lie with a single savior but with the Jedi order



Many will wonder if the prophesy of the chosen one still applies in the modern times after all the shape changing Sith have been extinct for over 900 years



The chosen one would surely be a vessel of pure energy,



Someone who is fathered into existence by the midichorins themselves to act as their agent



Such a Being would be beyond the authority of the Jedi Council

I wonder if the true meaning of the Prophesy has more to do with teaching Force users a more complete view of the Force and the bringing together of the two competing ideologies than a physical battle.

 

No. Balance means that the Chosen One, which is Anakin, would bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith and undoing all the greed, fear, anger, hatred and selfishness that was created in the wake of the Sith's rise to power. Those emotions still exist afterwards as we see in the ST and the ST related material, but has not come to dominate the galaxy.

No, they don't cancel each other out. Average people are affected by the light and the dark, when certain emotional states are played upon by the Sith. The Clone Wars were the result of Palpatine creating a strong cloud of fear, anger and hatred in the galaxy. He exploited the greedy nature of the Separatist Council with the promise of unlimited power and untold riches, which they were afraid to lose due to the taxation of the trade routes to the outlying systems. The Sith created a climate of fear that resulted in the Republic giving up many of its freedoms for security. The Jedi were exploited to fight in a war that was pointless and made the Jedi look like terrible individuals, who were acting on behalf of a corrupt government. The Separatists were seen as heroes for standing up to the Republic and the Jedi. The heroes on both sides and evil was everywhere bit, according to the title crawl for ROTS.