Balance of the Force

Lucas: One of the main themes in The Phantom Menace is of organisms having to realize they must live for their mutual advantage.
- Time interview (Bill Moyers) 03/05/99

Symbiosis is a prominent theme in TPM. It is perhaps best exemplified by Obi-Wan?s dialogue to Boss Nass: "You and the Naboo form a symbiotic circle. What happens to one of you will affect the other. You must understand this." It is Boss Nass?s inability to see this that eventually drives them from their home, and his eventual turnaround that enables both the Gungans and the Naboo to reclaim their homeworld. They represent two species that depend on one another, and need one another, even if they don?t particularly like one another.

The Jedi have a symbiotic relationship with the Force, as Qui-Gon explained to Anakin: "We are symbionts with [the midichlorians]. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force." The Jedi work with the midichlorians to provide a harmonic balance to the Force.

Lucas: One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the Dark Side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies.
- Time interview (Bill Moyers) 03/05/99

The Sith do not have a symbiotic relationship with the Force. They take from the Force, but do not give in return. As Lucas describes, they are a cancer on the Force, and continually eat away at the balance, creating disharmony and upsetting the balance of the Force.

Lucas: In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces.
- CUT interview 09/07/99

This Jedi is Yoda, as we can see from a few key scenes. In an early scene during which Qui-Gon tells the Council of his suspicion that the Tatooine attacker was a Sith, the thought is greeted with derision by all but Yoda, who calmly says, "Hard to see the dark side is." Telling here is the glance Mace gives to Yoda as he delivers his preceding line, "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing." It is as if this is an argument they have had before. Yoda knows (or at least suspects) that the Sith are still about, while Mace believes they passed long ago.

Lucas: The midi-chlorians have brought Anakin into being as 'the chosen one' who brings balance to the universe.
-The Making of Episode 1, Random House, 1999.

The Force is beginning to lose balance, and the Jedi are beginning to lose their ability to use the Force, yet they are unaware of it. The midichlorians, sensing this threat, created Anakin to restore balance to the Force. Yet what does it mean to bring balance?

Balance is, in this case, a balance of nature, not numbers. The Force is not balanced until the end of ROTJ, when all the Sith have been eliminated. The Sith caused the imbalance by wiping out the Jedi and taking control of the Force; their cance

 

Wow, great post, dehrian. It's nice to see the various Lucas quotes in one place, to get a better idea of what his intentions were.

 

Indeed, great post!

I have always taken Lucas at his word (as per the interview on the 2000 Trilogy Video Release) that Anakin is indeed the Chosen One. But this just drives it home as to what GL had in mind to tie it all together in the Saga.

To me, it is interesting that another Symbiotic Circle had to develop for this to take place. That being the bond between father & son and for that matter the entire Skywalker family...a bond that had to be restored.

 

Balance of the Force simply refers to equal mass of both Jedi and Sith. Weight can change, depending on the planet they are on.

This thread is now done.

 

good post real good post , i wish i could spea woth yoda he has all th secrets

 

When no Sith there are acheived balance is

I like Yoda speak

 

The Force is beginning to lose balance, and the Jedi are beginning to lose their ability to use the Force, yet they are unaware of it. The midichlorians, sensing this threat,

Obi-Wan sensed the threat. Already in EpI.

OBI-WAN
I have a bad feeling about this.

QUI-GON
I don't sense anything.

OBI-WAN
It's not about the mission, Master, it's something...elsewhere...elusive.

QUI-GON
Don't center on your anxiety, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now where it belongs.

OBI-WAN
Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future...

QUI-GON
...but not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan.

And I have come to a conclusion that the reason Obi-Wan and Yoda will survive the purge is that they understand the nature of the Living Force. I think that Qui-Gon's statement clarifies this: Be mindful of the future, but not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living Force (the present and the future).

 

Great thread!! Hardcore Star wars stuff!!

 

Dehrian thanks for putting that all together.

I've known for ages that the Balance of the Force = no Sith and that Anakin = Chosen One, but its good you put the quotes together with the story itself.

Well done that man

 

That was a very good post, and I love topics about balance of the force. I am always the guy who disagree's, even if GL said so (until I see it in a movie I will not believe GL, he has a tendency to change his mind).

I still think that no Sith is not a balanced situation. To me having no Darkside presence in the universe is just not reality, and is definatly not balanced.

Also, I don't think that equal #'s is balance. To me it has always been how the force is used. For example, a Yin-Yang has two equal sides (light/dark). The Jedi ignore the dark half of the force, a half that is relivant and important. How can you have balance if one aspect of the force is ignored?

This is why Anakin had to destroy the Jedi and the Sith to get rid of old and irrelivant methods of force use/teachings. This is the only way that the force using population could really revise and reorder a millenia of unbalanced thinking.

To me this is balanced, and it works in context of the SW series. At the end of RotJ we are left with Luke as the only trained force user, Luke had a very unorthodox training and therefore is not rooted to the old republic Jedi mentality. We also see him use some darkside techniques (choking Jabba's guard, violent anger in his battle with Vader, ect...), so maybe Luke and his new style of force use is what was intended by "balance" and everyone he teaches will use the same style.

So that is my crackpot theory on "balance". As usual I expect people will say I'm out in left field, or insane, whatever. To me this makes more sense than just killing 2 Sith and presto all is good again.

 

Well done post, dehrian.

As the interview dates point out, the chosen one idea was interduced in 1999. That is the whole problem with the Balance of the Force. In the OT there as no balance, there were bad guys that had to go away. Luke had to confront Darth Vader. Obi-Wan and Yoda were all about the kill Vader plan. Luke had his own plan, save his father from the Dark Side. GL is using about six minutes of ROTJ to justify three films that try to make Anakin into the hero of Star Wars. Yes, a tragic hero, but a hero none the less.

Darth-Dispicable, I liked your "crackpot theory".

 

"As the interview dates point out, the chosen one idea was interduced in 1999. That is the whole problem with the Balance of the Force."

The idea of the Chosen One existed back in 1994. It simply wasn't used as a major plot point in the OT, because there wasn't enough time to explain it.

That being said, Lucas has pretty much kept mum about it in the PT as well.

 

"The idea of the Chosen One existed back in 1994. It simply wasn't used as a major plot point in the OT, because there wasn't enough time to explain it."

I did not know this. Could you give me some more info on this? Thanks.

 

Simple -- he put the idea in the script when he started writing it.

 

Now I understand. It is much easier when you are awake.

 

So that is my crackpot theory on "balance". As usual I expect people will say I'm out in left field, or insane, whatever.

Your insane.


Luke had to confront Darth Vader. Obi-Wan and Yoda were all about the kill Vader plan. Luke had his own plan, save his father from the Dark Side.

And - if you'll notice, Fuzzy - by such, both plans are accomplished. Vader cannot be redeemed and live.


he put the idea in the script when he started writing it.

The original prophecy, which MeBe can post for you, was in reference to the Luke character of the saga. At some point after 1983, the prophecy was re-introduced in reference to Anakin.

So here's a question, to achieve balance, is it necessary only to destroy the Sith. Is it necessary to even have a Jedi Order (or some equavilant) in order to have balance? Judging from Lucas's quotes, it looks like the Jedi themselves are irrelivant to the balance.

 

Just because there are no Sith doesn't mean there is no darkside in the galaxy, the cave on Dagobah for instance.

I'm sure there would still be greedy people, or whatever else, however no one is actually taking anything away from the force.

Using the life force that surounds and is inside everything takes something away from the galaxy. If the force has its own will the Sith change this and there is unbalance. The Jedi accept the will of the force even if it means death, OB1 almost smiles as Darth strikes him down a Sith would never let that happen. The Jedi therefore don't ever remove something from the force.

 

The first film starts with the last age of the Republic; which is it's getting tired, old, it's getting corrupt. There's the rise of the Sith, who are now becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this you have Anakin Skywalker: a young boy who's destined to be a very significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and the Republic.

In the second film, we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Replublic, sorta the beginning of the end of the Republic, and it's Anakin Skyalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he's coping with.

Then we will get to the 3rd film, where he is seduced to the dark side, which brings up to films four, five, and six, where Anakin's offspring redeem him allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe.

--George Lucas, Episode II preview before the newest SE release of ANH

Thought that might help!

Edit: That quote was edited... I removed the counless "uhhh"'s from it. I figured it's more enjoyable to read without GL's stuttering.

 

Finding the way, never allowing the dark side to destroy what is good. To stay in the light helping others come out of the dark. Finding the middle ground so we can make good choices, not allowing the dark side of our souls to prevail over good judgment.

To go to bed at a decent hour, than staying up all night lurking/posting, when we have an early alarm beckoning in a few hours.

 

>>>I still think that no Sith is not a balanced situation. To me having no Darkside presence in the universe is just not reality, and is definatly not balanced.

The thing is, the Dark Side is always there- it's something within, rather than just "somewhere else" (as the cave in ESB makes clear.) Wiping out the Sith means wiping out this order which is focussed on the Dark Side, and all that comes with it (disturbing the balance of the Force, for example.)

The problem is when people turn to the Dark Side and embrace it's power, and it "consumes" them. Wiping out all Force-Users would be one way to eliminate the "Dark Side" problem, but that would also mean the loss of the Jedi's teachings, which are clearly pretty useful in the field of knowledge and defence...

The "evil" lies in misusing these awesome powers and giving in to the darkness within- which is a code or philosophy that I think applies equally well to any form of power in the real world as well as the GFFA- whether it's money, love, military power or whatever.

"Fear... anger... agression... The Dark Side are they... Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. But once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will!"


>>>The Sith do not have a symbiotic relationship with the Force. They take from the Force, but do not give in return. As Lucas describes, they are a cancer on the Force, and continually eat away at the balance, creating disharmony and upsetting the balance of the Force.

Compare that to the moment where Obi Wan gives himself entirely to the Force, and actually becomes one with the very power that the Sith are "taking" from. Which neatly explains why he becomes "more powerful than [Vader] could possibly imagine."

I think the "cancer" analogy is a really good one- the reason that cancer is so deadly and so hard to deal with is simply because it is a bunch of cells which are too good at living- they consume energy (in the form of blood), they replicate at a phenomenal rate, but they don't die in the way that "normal" cells do. And because they don't die, they end up killing the "host" who they rely upon to survive.

"I will learn to stop death."

 

Reading this thread has convinced me. No Sith = Balance in the Force. The Force is not good nor bad. The Jedi don't use the Force for their own gain, they trust what the Force is "telling" them and use the Force for others, always trying not to upset the balance of the Force.

The Sith use the Force for evil. They pervert the true nature of the Force for their own gains.

 

Maybe people misunderstand what I say about the Sith being destroyed. I do believe that the Sith need to be destroyed, but so do the Jedi. IMO this needs to happen in order for the force to be used in a balanced way because they both use it in a way that is unbalanced.

Try looking at it this way. The Jedi use only the "light" or good aspects of the force, and the Sith use only the "dark" or evil aspects of it. Luke used both "dark" and "light" aspects of the force.

Now looking at only the paragraph above, ask yourself which type of force use seems more likely to create balance. The logical answer is Luke's way, and since he is the only trained force user left after RotJ then it seems that the prophecy was fulfilled.

Scott3eyes: You make a good point here,

I think the "cancer" analogy is a really good one- the reason that cancer is so deadly and so hard to deal with is simply because it is a bunch of cells which are too good at living- they consume energy (in the form of blood), they replicate at a phenomenal rate, but they don't die in the way that "normal" cells do. And because they don't die, they end up killing the "host" who they rely upon to survive.

I think you make a good point here. The Sith are a cancer on the Universe but could not the Jedi be a cancer as well? They ignore 1/2 of what the force is, they have labeled what is "dark" and what is "light". If part of something is ingored or neglected does it not cause the whole being to wither away? Anakin's purge of all force users is what removes this cancer from the force.

I know that this is not what is meant by GL's version of "balance", but IMHO it does make more sense. I believe that if GL never releases his version of the prophecy in EP3 then there is nothing in the movies that could contradict anything that I have said, maybe something in the EU would but that does not count.

 

"Try looking at it this way. The Jedi use only the "light" or good aspects of the force, and the Sith use only the "dark" or evil aspects of it. Luke used both "dark" and "light" aspects of the force.

Now looking at only the paragraph above, ask yourself which type of force use seems more likely to create balance. The logical answer is Luke's way, and since he is the only trained force user left after RotJ then it seems that the prophecy was fulfilled."

The Force is the Force. "Light" and "Dark" refer to the intent of the user. "Light Side" users are passive and limit their use, whereas "Dark Side" use the Force for everything, even to kill, which goes against the very nature of the Force.

As far as the "Light Side" goes, there are two disciplines...

OS: Gui-gon Jinn

"A venerable if maverick Jedi Master, Qui-Gon Jinn is a student of the living Force. Unlike other Jedi Masters, who often lose themself in the meditation of the unifying Force, Qui-Gon Jinn lived for the moment, espousing a philosophy of "feel, don't think -- use your instincts." Were it not for Qui-Gon's unruly views, he would have undoubtedly been on the Jedi Council."

Interestingly enough, the ROTJ novelization states this...

"To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and then go beyond the dark side-the side your father couldn't get past. Impatience is the easiest door-for you, like your father. Only, your father was seduced by what he found on the other side of the door, and you have held firm. You're no longer so reckless now, Luke. You are strong and patient. And you are ready for your final confrontation."

Luke shook his head again, as the implications of the old Jedi's speech became clear. "I can't do it, Ben."

Obi-wan Kenobi's shoulders slumped in defeat. "Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope."

Interesting, no?

 

>>>The Sith are a cancer on the Universe but could not the Jedi be a cancer as well? They ignore 1/2 of what the force is, they have labeled what is "dark" and what is "light". If part of something is ingored or neglected does it not cause the whole being to wither away? Anakin's purge of all force users is what removes this cancer from the force.

While removing ALL force-users and ALL knowledge of the Force would indeed restore balance (as there would be no danger of anyone ever tasting the power of the Dark Side ever again!), you?ve started off with some incorrect assumptions. The Jedi have never (in the films, anyway) labelled anything as ?light?, or ?ignored ½ of the Force.? There is no such thing as the ?light side of the Force? in the films.

In my opinion, this idea of ?light side vs. dark side? completely undermines the morality of the saga and turns it from a fantastic saga centred around the struggle against evil into something with little more depth than a ?Spy vs Spy? cartoon strip.

?The Force is my ally. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it? makes it grow??

The Jedi never talk about the ?Light Side?- they only talk about ?the Force.?
They wholly embrace it- they wield it?s power, and they listen to it?s commands. They give, as well as take.

The Sith don?t follow the Will of the Force- they follow their own will, and impose it upon the Force. They take, but they don?t give.

The Dark Side is something within the individual. Falling to the Dark Side is falling to the evil, the selfish temptations that lie within- greed, possessiveness, anger, hatred etc.

The closest that has come to any reference to any ?light? in the films so far is Yoda?s speech in ESB;

?Life creates it, makes it grow. It?s energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we- not this crude matter!?

?Luminous? means reflecting or giving off light. I don?t think it?s a stretch to associate this ?light? with the Force in it?s entirety, and the darkness with the ?crude matter? of flesh, blood and bone.

Now, think about the ?luminous beings? we?ve actually seen- the shimmering ghosts of Obi Wan and Yoda, who clearly understood that death was not the end, not something to fight against but something to be accepted when it came and moved past, and the time came to ?become one with the Force? (just think about what that means, exactly)- ?more powerful than you could possibly imagine.?

Now take Anakin?s talk about ?I will learn to stop death? in AOTC, or the suit he wears throughout the OT (to preserve the ?crude matter? of his body), or the Emperor?s withered, unnaturally aged face, and then compare it all with Luke standing up in the face of certain death in ROTJ, or Obi Wan in ANH calmly facing death with a smile on his face;

?Twilight is upon me, and soon night must fall. That is the way of things. The way of the Force.?

This isn?t the Sith?s ?pick and mix? philosophy of using the Force as a mere tool, using it?s power, ignoring everything else that goes with it; this is the wisest of all Jedi not giving into the temptation to use his power to extend his life, but to know when it is his time to let go and move on.

(Maybe Yoda?s line- ?Strong am I with the Force, but not that strong? could be seen as an acknowledgement that this kind of meddling with the Force for purely personal gain is the Dark Side, which even Yoda isn?t strong enough to handle without being corrupted and consumed?)

 

Scott3eyez: Why did you have to go and use film quotes on me? Now I have to go and correct the whole theory just to make it work.