Speculation Balance to the Force - plotline continuation in Episode 7

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Darth_Darkmoon, Nov 1, 2012.

  1. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    We've been over this. I already acknowledged from my personal experience that all average viewers I know feel this way. Inductive reasoning also happens to be helpful in this situation. Nothing in the movies say the sith are just some random sect of darksiders. the average viewer only has the movies to go off of. I fully admit in the end I am making a bit of an assumption. Once again though the disagreement of the other side also requires an assumption with much less evidence and facts to work off of. It is also pretty telling that the majority of attempts to disagree with the argument have required fallacies to make them work.
    Last edited by Fleab88, Mar 1, 2013
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  2. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    I'll acknowledge that point, but otherwise I guess we're miscommunicating.
  3. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I think that's fair, both sides require assumptions about the audience.
  4. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    The fact I have had to regularly repeat my point when people misrepresent or change it would imply that is a fair assumption :p
  5. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    I don't see it that way, hence we are miscommunicating.
  6. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    Honestly, if you can't see the flaw then I would prefer not to continue the discussion anyway. If you still have trouble seeing a problem with that thought process jedi merkurian may be able to shed some light for you. he is btter at explaining these yhings then i am. We won't get anywhere with that logic, and we might as well cut our losses. I'm off anyway to spend some quality time with the wife and the kid.
  7. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    I agree with this post. Anyway, the last two posts made me understand your argument.
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Mar 1, 2013
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  8. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    What we should be discussing is: The Existing 6 movies are about the conflict between Jedi and Sith. How will they continue from that in the ST?
  9. DARTHSHAME Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2003
    star 4
    I think we will have Sith. I would like to see some evolution in their thinking. I would prefer not to see the same old take over the galaxy type storyline.
  10. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4
    The difference between a Sith Lord and a Dark Jedi in the movies is Mace Windu. A Dark Jedi is simply a Jedi who falls to the Dark Side. Mace falls to the Dark Side when he duels Palpatine and he gives into fear and tries to execute Palpatine in defiance of the Jedi Code. As with a lot of things in Star Wars, it's paralleled in Return of the Jedi where Luke is falling and only has to kill Vader to seal his fate. Instead he throws away his lightsaber whereas Mace, driven by fear, attempts to strike the final blow. At that point, Mace is a Dark Jedi as opposed to Palpatine who is a Sith, with an ideology and secret knowledge of paths to power. It's the difference between a crime of passion and premeditated murder.
  11. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    What? Mace fell to the Dark Side because he wanted to do one of the few logical things in the prequels and kill the most dangerous person alive, end the war right there, eliminate a great threat to the Republic and the entire galaxy and potentially save billions of lives?

    This thought hasn't even crossed the mind of the Average Joe movie goer. I know people in the theater who were like "do it. DO IT!" at that scene and were disappointed by the outcome.

    I understand not killing an unarmed opponent, but Palpatine is never unarmed - he has the lightning bolt stuff he can do at any time. And Mace knew that.
    Like I said, one of the few moments in the prequels when a character is not stupid and we're calling him a Dark Jedi?

    Going by the way you're portraying the Jedi, they can't seem to be able to do anything remotely useful other than sit in their chairs all day talking about how they "Feel a disturbance in the Force" but do nothing about it...
    Last edited by the_sinister_hologram, Mar 2, 2013
  12. Darth kRud Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    The lighting is SITH lighting. SITH god damnnit SITH mo fo LIGHTING! SSSSIIIIIIIITTTTTHHH!!!!!

    (i think i'm having some sort of breakdown)

    Back to reality.

    "A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning, which, unabated, has the power not only to incapacitate or kill, but to physically transform the victim. Force lightning requires strength of a sort only a Sith can command because we accept consequence and reject compassion. To do so requires a thirst for power that is not easily satisfied. The Force tries to resist the callings of ravenous spirits; therefore it must be broken and made a beast of burden. It must be made to answer one's will. But the Force cannot be treated deferentially. In order to summon and use lightning properly, you will someday have to be on the receiving end of its power, as a means of taking the energy inside yourself."
    Darth Plagueis[src]
  13. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    Self defense is murder now? A sith who had the power to hide right in front of the jedi order, orchestrate the biggest war the galaxy has ever known, and take out three jedi masters in a matter of seconds? I never assumed Mace turned to the dark side in that moment. He was not a dark jedi in that moment. If that is what people have in mind for the new villain being a dark jedi then count me out. Zero threat level.
  14. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    Whether or not Mace would have fallen to the dark side had he executed Palpatine is a good question. Also, I do not think anyone had a Windu-type character in mind as a villain.
  15. lord_eidolon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2004
    star 3
    Why should E7 continue the balance of the force story? That arc ended pretty well in 6, so lets start a new story arc.
  16. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    I think the idea is what it means for the force to be in balance. Would a return of the sith throw things back out of balance? Would having a new darkside organization that is exactly like the sith, but just with a different name throw the force out of balance? If not then why?
  17. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    Do not start an arguement about whether or not two Jedi and two Sith = balance.
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Mar 2, 2013
  18. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    I don't think that is what balance means at all. Frankly I don't even think they knew what they meant by balance when they went down this road. Not sure how my post suggested I was saying balance of the force users.
  19. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4
    I suggest you watch the scene again (seriously, ROTS is awesome and any excuse to watch it should be welcome). Is Palpatine playing possum? Absolutely. But you're focusing on the wrong person. Mace clearly believes he's won the battle, he believes he's in control. He makes an arbitrary decision to killed an unarmed prisoner (yes Palpatine has a second saber but Mace didn't know that), against the Jedi Code. The reason he makes that decision is clear. It's fear.

    "He has control of the Senate and the Courts, he's too dangerous to be left alive."

    You also have to remember that Mace sensed a plot against the Jedi. He was clearly afraid of Palpatine's influence in the Senate and the lingering threat in the back of his mind that somehow the Jedi were going to be wiped out. Was he right to be afraid? Absolutely. Was killing Palpatine then and there the most prudent option? Probably. But it still went against the code. It was still a decision driven by fear and as we all know, "fear is the path to the dark side."

    We'll never know what would have happened had Anakin not stopped him, if Mace would have been able to live with giving in to his fears or if it would have set him on a path that pushed him further away from the Jedi, but in that moment, Mace was absolutely falling to the Dark Side. Not as a Sith Lord who kills children but simply as someone who let his fear consume him and in the end, had he not chosen to strike the final blow, Anakin probably wouldn't have intervened and betrayed the Order. Palpatine was manipulating Mace just as much as he was manipulating Anakin in that scene. He needed Mace to give in to his fear and strike out in order to push Anakin over the edge and force him to make a fateful choice.

    But Mace doing that, Anakin intervening, they aren't acts of the Sith. They are acts of fallen Jedi, which I guess may be a better term to describe Mace than Dark Jedi. A fallen Jedi gives in to his fear, a dark jedi embraces it, and a Sith Lord commands it.
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  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    [IMG]
    ^ Sith lighting
    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
    [IMG]
    ^ Sith lightning
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 2, 2013
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  21. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    I can see where you are coming form, and I appreciate your distinction of saying it was a fallen jedi act as opposed to a dark jedi. Calling Mace a dark jedi for attempting to kill Palpatine seems way to extreme to me. I would however, argue that Palpatine was far from unarmed. A sith Lord has extreme ability in commanding the force. Mace is no idiot. Did he get carried away? Honestly, he probably did. I think it is ignorant to say he tried to kill Palpatine unarmed though. A sith "unarmed" is not a very capable sith.
  22. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4
    Ah but you see, while we know Palpatine wasn't truly helpless, the question is, did Mace know? He certainly knew that if he let Palpatine live to face trial that Palpatine would likely win the day and he could justify killing Palpatine for the greater good. But a Jedi can't live like that. They must be mindful of the future but not at the expense of the moment, as Qui Gon would say. And a lot of bad things have been done in the name of "the greater good." So let's go back to the question with that in mind. In that moment, did Mace know Palpatine wasn't really defeated? The evidence of the movie suggests no. He even outright says "You have lost" and I get the feeling that in that moment, there was arrogance. Mace thought he had won the battle. He thought he had Palpatine dead to rights. And it was at that point that fear took over and all thoughts of arresting Palpatine faded.

    But that's a side issue. Back to the whole balance question. As I've suggested previously, I believe that the imbalance wasn't about light and dark, it was about corruption of the Force by using unnatural powers like manipulating the future, raising the dead etc. The Sith had to be destroyed because they knew those dark secrets. And that's the distinction between Dark Jedi and Sith. Because of the Rule Of Two, those secrets died with Palpatine and Vader. So any future Jedi who turn to the Dark Side can certainly conquer the galaxy but they can't create an imbalance in the Force because they haven't been taught the secrets of the Sith. They have no knowledge of the unnatural powers that corrupts the Force, that corrupts nature.

    These Dark Jedi, and they aren't really, that's just a name we use, they aren't Jedi and they aren't Sith. They may call themselves either, but they are really neither. They are merely Force users who embrace the Dark Side. In order for them to be Sith and have the ability to corrupt and shift the Force out of balance, they would need to rediscover the secrets that were lost when Palpatine took a tumble down a big hole.
  23. Fleab88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2012
    star 3
    Couple of quick thoughts. I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the Mace issue. My opinion is he was fully aware. If he wasn't then he was a pretty incompetent master. I get your point though, and I respect it. I just personally don;t see it that way.

    As for the balance thing. I have a couple of issues. First, where do the films state this? The main problem with discussing the issue of balance in the force is the simple fact that the movies give no clear indication as to what it means. Any idea we give would simply jsut be guess work, and much of that guess work has been mudied by concepts the EU has given over this topic.

    Let's also keep in mind that even by your concept of imbalance, the sith could easily rise again. A dark force user could still accomplish what the sith did for the simple fact that the original sith had to figure it out somehow to begin with. While the knowledge to do so may need to be rediscovered, the abaility itself has not disappeared forever. The force was thrown out of balance at some point, meaning there was a time where it was kept in balance. If it could be thrown out of balance once, then it could certainly be done again.

    Again, this is all a bit of a frustrating moot point though because the films don;t explain this. That's why i think the balance issue will get brought back up in the ST. Because right now the average person think a darkside user is just a sith because the films have said nothing to contradict that, and they have given very little explanation on balance, the prophecy, and just what the heck the chosen ones actions in destroying the sith were supposed to accomplish in bringing balance back.

    I like your thoughts. In the end I personally hope the ST simply gives answers. Right now everything is just us guessing and giving personal preference.
  24. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The balance is between the light and dark, so the imbalance is about light and dark ( "The Force grows dark" ). We know that the Force recoiled from Plagueis' experimentation at one point. But the more relevant unnatural power attained by the Sith was the ability to directly affect the balance. With respect to that ability the point still stands: we can surmise that the Sith knowledge forming the basis of the ability died with Palpatine.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 2, 2013
  25. DealAlterer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    star 1
    This wasn't a problem until 1999. Before the prequels, the relationship between light and dark was more ambiguous and philosophical. There was no "prophecy" or "balance" jib jab. The side of light was about selflessness and the side of dark was about power. Those that gave in to their fear chose the dark path because it empowered them.

    I miss Star Wars when it's mythology wasn't spelled out for you. When Anakin was a man fallen from grace and not some pre-destined chosen one. Before the dark times, before the prequels.
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