Speculation Balance to the Force - plotline continuation in Episode 7

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Darth_Darkmoon, Nov 1, 2012.

  1. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4
    Look at the close up of Mace when he and Palpatine have their blades crossed and tell me he doesn't look pissed. :p

    Mace has never seemed very Jedi-like to me in the films. Given that Lucas likes to repeat themes, the idea that Luke's ultimate victory by throwing down his lightsaber is linked thematically to Mace's final failure makes sense to me. But there are other interpretations. And people say the prequels lack depth...bah.

    My interpretation of balance comes from the films. It's based around Yoda's speech about the nature of the Force ("Life creates it, makes it grow...") in Empire which to me equates to nature, plus the events of the prequels, such as the Jedi's Force ability being diminished, Palpatine manipulating events, his line about unnatural abilities etc. But it's my interpretation, the one that makes the most sense to me and isn't necessarily right.

    I don't argue that point. Let's say my interpretation is right. Even with the Sith gone, at some point in their history they had to discover those secrets that led to the corruption of the Force so it's certainly conceivable that it could happen again. A mere 30 years after the Force was brought back into balance? Probably not. I happen to believe the new threat will be extragalactic, not Sith, thus the balance of the Force won't matter. If anything, I think this new threat might want to wipe out all Force users, not just Jedi or Sith. Perhaps they believe that the Jedi Arts as a whole are corrupt and nobody should be tapping into the Force. But I haven't read the script so I'm just guessing and fan-ficcing.


    If destroying the Sith brings balance to the Force, then the reason the Force is out of balance can't be because of what the Sith are, it has to be because of something they've done. Otherwise, every time a Jedi got angry, heck forget Jedi, just ordinary people getting angry would shift the Force out of balance. So the Sith must have some connection to the Dark Side beyond basic power. They must have used it in a way that is harmful to the Force.

    Nowhere in the films does it say the balance is between light and dark. In fact the term "light side" isn't mentioned in any of the six films. Luke refers to "good side" once but as we know, "good" is a point of view. The Light Side is an EU concept. The movies present "The Force" and "The Dark Side Of The Force." What the EU would call the Light Side is really just the Force in it's natural state and balance can't be between light and dark because that would mean that the Jedi are capable of knocking the Force out of balance by just existing. As if too much good in the universe is bad. It's the inherent problem with the balance issue since it was first introduced. We thing of it as Ying and Yang but in the context of Star Wars, that makes no sense. Only following the light becomes just as bad as only following the dark if balance is what's best for the Force.

    You also have the issue of there being trillions of people in one galaxy and trillions of galaxies, each potentially with trillions of people, with every single one of them having the Force. Granted, most aren't strong in the Force but just having a little bit of the Force in them is enough to shift the balance when you add up the number of people. Take the Star Wars galaxy in isolation: If the balance is between light and dark, then a trillion ordinary people getting angry would shift the balance just as much as a thousand Jedi or two Sith. Thus the Force would always be shifting because for every peace treaty in the galaxy there's a conflict to match it. People get angry and sad, joyful and exuberant. Killing a Sith Lord wouldn't restore balance because there can be no balance. The Force would shift between light and dark constantly.

    I've thought way too much about this stuff over the past 14 years since the prophecy was first revealed in TPM. The Mortis arc in Clone Wars complicates things because it does present the balance issue as being light vs dark but I tend to interpret it as a balance between good and evil rather than light and dark, based on my own interpretation of the Force which is that there is no "light" or ultimate good side of the Force.

    The Force is nature. The balance of the Force is really just the Force in its natural state, allowed to flow freely, come what may. Bad things happen, good things happen. Balance comes from not trying to change it. Because the Jedi are passive and don't use the Force for their own ends, they are incapable of creating an imbalance. They let things play out and deal with things as they happen as opposed to the Sith, who try to use the Force to fit their ideal view of reality. The Sith create imbalance by not letting things play out and by trying to twist the Force to their own ends. This is a consequence of the Dark Side, which rather than being an equal and opposite side of the Force to a light side, is rather a corruption of the Force in its natural state. Thus the Force is knocked out of balance not when Plagueis and Palpatine enact their plans, but long before, when the Sith ruled the galaxy and only by putting an end to the continued use of these unnatural powers can the Force be healed, return to it's natural state and thus be in balance.

    But again, all of this is just how I interpret it based on the movies. I need to get a life... :D

    How could the balance issue continue in the sequels? Well if we assume the Force is now back in balance, perhaps the enemy in the ST will be beings who want to destroy the Force outright. To do that, you'd have to destroy all life, everywhere. A tall order but perhaps the god-like Force users from the Mortis arc could make an appearance.
    Darth Chiznuk likes this.
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    However, it's said everywhere else, including the T-canon TCW, numerous examples in C-canon EU, and in the statements of Lucas as well IIRC. In the films it is expressed that the imbalance is a matter of light and darkness: Bring balance to the Force... not leave it in darkness.

    No, it isn't. It's a George Lucas concept. It was originally called Ashla in early scripts. It is mentioned outright in TESB and implied in ANH by a process of subtraction. Buying into Palpatine's spiel regarding the word "good" is pointless here because "good side" and "light side" are just alternate versions of nomenclature to describe the same thing: a side of the Force. Lucas' concept of the Force has two sides, hence the films' usage of the term "side of the Force", and this is borne out in his personal statements on the matter and in "behind-the-scenes" sources detailing the production of the OT.

    No, the Force in its natural state ( as defined by Lucas ) has two sides. In Lucas' words "they both have to be there". In the words of the "Father" of the Force Wielders, too much or too little of either one would be the undoing of life as we understand it.

    That does not follow. It's the balance of the Force, not the balance of the Force-users. Force-users are not the Force.

    Actually, it makes total sense ( especially if we consider SW's various influences such as Taoism as seen through the works of Joseph Campbell ); and it's yin, not ying.

    It's the balance of the Force, not the balance of the following.

    The balance of the Force has nothing to with adding up numbers of people. It's not a head count.

    One does not follow from the other. That does not fit the situation portrayed by the films or the concept that ROTJ restores balance. It appears to be a very rare individual that has the ability to shift the balance of the Force.

    Yet we know that Plagueis and Sidious did unbalance the Force, or at least deepen significantly an existing imbalance, and once again the source in question benefited from Lucas involvement, just like TCW.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 2, 2013
  3. lord_eidolon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2004
    star 3
    I think everyone is missing the point of the films being taken in a new direction. It's going to the start of an all new trilogy with its own themes and motifs. It won't be rehashing the 'balance' stuff.
  4. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4


    Given that I don't regard most EU and since at least the Post-Jedi EU is set to be wiped out, we're going to end up having two separate arguments here. Mine is a movie-only argument which is ultimately what matters concerning Episode VII since wide audiences won't have a clue about the Plagueis novel (which I did read...I was with it up until it turned out that Sidious was still an apprentice during TPM). I don't say that to disparage EU, just that an EU interpretation isn't going to be as reliable in considering what, if anything, will appear regarding the balance in the sequels. But I'll try my best to respond with regard to a larger view of the canon.

    It's interesting that you quote Obi-Wan in ROTS because that quote doesn't mention a light side. Obi-Wan doesn't say "you betrayed the Light" or anything along those lines. It's made pretty clear in the prequels that the Jedi believe that the way to bring balance to the Force is to destroy the Sith. But if we're talking about light and dark, the existence of the Sith is necessary, isn't it? If the Sith and the Jedi can effect the balance, which the prequels say they can, then there are three ways to bring balance:

    1. Equivalent power. However many Jedi there are and how ever many Sith there are doesn't matter, as long as the total power on each side matches.
    2. Destroy them all. No Jedi, no Sith. No Force Users whatsoever.
    3. Force Users existing in between the Jedi and the Sith (Like "Father" I guess). I'll come back to this one because it does raise an idea I've been thinking about regarding the prophecy.

    The first two certainly don't match with what actually happens. Vader and Sidious are destroyed, leaving Luke, a Jedi who will ultimately pass on what he has learned. Force users continue to exist but as Jedi, with no counterbalance, at least until someone falls to the Dark Side. That's not balance as interpreted by light vs dark.



    I'm aware of Ashla and Bogan. And it isn't mentioned outright in Empire. Only the Force and the Dark Side of the Force. In any case, Lucas, as much as I love the guy, tends to change his mind a lot. I think there needs to be a split in the top level canon between what Lucas says and what actually happens. :p

    But in all seriousness, Yoda says "my ally is The Force" not "my ally is the Light Side Of The Force." As presented in the movies, I don't think the Jedi make the distinction between the Light Side and the Force in general. Also, the fact that following the "light" can grant Jedi immortality, it would seem that the Force prefers the light side, which wouldn't really be balance, unless what we refer to as the light side is simply the Force.



    I hope you don't mind that I respond to these parts together as they cover the same subject. If the balance isn't about people, why do the Sith need to be destroyed? If it's balance between light and dark, then numbers can matter. The Force is everywhere and in everyone. Let's say for example that it would take a combined midichlorian count of 1,000 ordinary people to match the midichlorian count of a single, average Jedi. A thousand ordinary people giving in to dark impulses would be the equivalent of that Jedi turning to the Dark Side in terms of the effect it has on the Force. If every non-Force user in the galaxy felt untethered rage, would that not have an effect? If only Force users can effect the balance, then the solution is obvious - no Force users. As Obi-Wan says, the Force is created by all living things. It stands to reason then that all living things can have an effect on it.


    Returning to the idea of something existing between Jedi and Sith, one theory I have about the prophecy as it relates to Anakin is that perhaps destroying the Sith isn't how he restored balance. Perhaps having offspring was what restored balance. Specifically Luke. Luke is the balance. Again, this is just a theory but Luke isn't like any Jedi from the prequels. He has attachments. His emotions are a part of who he is and his love of the people in his life drives him. Perhaps the old Jedi were too rigid. Perhaps Luke is what Anakin tried to be, someone who walks the line. Eh embraces his emotions without being consumed by them. I'm sure Lucas would disagree. But it's just a thought.
    Darth Chiznuk likes this.
  5. OldTimeFan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2011
    star 1
    Yes be he did not bring about an end to greed and corruption in H̶o̶l̶l̶y̶w̶o̶o̶d̶ ̶ I mean the Galaxy.[face_laugh]
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The light side was mentioned in TESB, just called by a different name. It doesn't cease to exist if it doesn't get mentioned in every scene, nor is there any evidence that Lucas ever stopped believing in it.

    Which pretty much shoots down the "Jedi-Sith headcount" argument on its own, as does the mere fact that the Jedi seem to look forward to the bringing of balance as a positive outcome.

    No. Balance of the Force, not balance of the Force-users. Force-users are not the Force.

    The prequels do not say that the Jedi can affect the balance. Other than by killing the Sith, that is.

    The balance of the Force is not a balance of Force-users, or even of the power of each group of Force-users. Rewriting the balance of the Force to mean any other kind of connotation of the word "balance" that you can imagine, essentially leaving out the "of the Force" part, means you're no longer talking about the balance of the Force, which is the balance between the light and dark sides and is the only balance referred to in the films.

    Yes it is, just using a different name than the one which would later become commonly attached to it. It's also mentioned in the ROTJ script in a line which IIRC did not make it into the final film.

    If there is a side of the Force that is dark, and we have reason to believe that this does not constitute the whole of the Force, the light side follows by simple subtraction: L = F - D. The "Dark Side of the Force" is "of the Force" and thus not something external to it.

    Except he hasn't changed his mind about the Force having two sides in its natural state, as far as anyone knows. Everything he has said about the topic has been consistent.

    Here balance is attributed another extraneous meaning. Should balance mean that a power such as Force ghosting must be accessible through both sides? This is really a separate topic. Some people do believe that any conceivable power should be accessible through either side. However, Lucas has spoken of exclusively dark side powers, and of how the mere appearance of certain powers identifies a darksider. And that concept coexists with a belief in a two-sided Force. They are consistent. [ Also, we have seen darksiders attain quasi-immortality. ]

    Because they have achieved the power to unbalance the Force. Once again, it has nothing to do with adding up numbers of people, which is why the Sith can be only two ( or even one ) and still unbalance the Force.

    Nobody "is" the balance, because balance is a condition which the Force may or may not have at a given time. It's like a global variable of the Force.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 2, 2013
  7. Keeper_of_Swords Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 5
    Interesting info Razorblade.

    At first I used to think that I don't want to see repeated themes like jedi falling to the dark side etc etc...and ..is the establishment of a new jedi order (which i speculate will be portrayed in sequels) worth it, f dark-side users will arise from it and go rogue or Sith.....but the more I thought I compared the force to any other powerful skill/weapon....like in fantasy magic can be used for good or for evil...even ordinary guns, swords - can be used for both good and evil purposes...it is the same with the force, if you think about it...if the balance to the force theme is put aside...it is realistic that there will be ambitious force-users who will use the force for personal gain and even perhaps have nefarious intents....therefore..the jedi must be there ...powerful warriors who can counteract these force-users must be there, in order to stop them...
  8. woj101 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2000
    star 1
    The point being that the original cast members can be in it, a major selling point for the ST. I suspect they won't go 40 years though, perhaps 25-30 and try and pass off the gang as 10 years younger.

    If it hadn't already been done it could have been good to have a LOTR-type ending whereby Luke assumes the role of Gandalf and Luke's nephew/niece the role of Frodo, with the ST ending on them, the last jedi, becoming one with the Force - going to the grey havens/netherworld. The St as a whole would deal with countering a new dark side threat before understanding that there was no place for Force users in a peaceful world.
  9. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
  10. L0RD VADER Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2000
    star 4
    What if our perspective of what we think is balancing The Force is wrong? What if the sole fact that either a Jedi or Sith emerges, The Force goes unbalanced, since they polarise it? What if Luke's survival from the second Death Star explosion is itself a threat to the balance of the Force?

    That could be one plot element from Episode VII...

    Luke goes into hiding WITHOUT the intention of training anyone, only for the sake of keeping The Force balanced, in a new a peaceful Republic/Alliance.

    But accidentally, for a reason, is brought back into action and triggers something that unbalance The Force (a new apprentice... A discovery ala Anakin...)

    Or, one theory I brought up in these threads:

    What if Luke sticks to his plan for 40 years,... But the materialisation of Anakin's darkside is passed onto Leia's heir.

    Luke has then no more reason to hide and the motivation of either train this potential threat the ways of The Jedi and keep him from wanting to rule the universe with its new powers...

    Or else, simply to destroy it and go ermit again.
  11. Voss Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 1
    Balance in the Force means no Sith. George said it.