Speculation Balance to the Force - plotline continuation in Episode 7

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by Darth_Darkmoon, Nov 1, 2012.

  1. GeneralCeel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2005
    star 2

    blah, blah blah. Star Wars is the story of good and evil. Sith are the evil side. Jedi are the good side. When a Jedi lets the darkside consume them... they're a Sith.
  2. Dunedain1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2003
    star 2
    Well, yes, when the term "sith" is used in this context, it means the human descendants of the dark Jedi who were banished by the Jedi Order for their curruption and use of the dark side. The actual sith who lived on Korriban were enslaved and then wiped out, the dark side jedi's descendants becoming known as the sith eventually. But actually they were human dark side force users who had developed a philosophy of "freedom" (though, actually, license is what they were describing) through breaking the chains of restraint, to let their emotions and anger give them strength, and they felt the Jedi were both a threat to them and also a target for revenge for trying to make them outcasts. And so they decided to wage war on the Republic to bring it under what they felt was their rightful control of the galaxy (Sith often seem to think they should be in charge of everything...), and to take revenge on the Jedi who had banished them so long ago. Those are the sith who are being referred to, not the inhabitants who were wiped out.
  3. Darthgoodguy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    star 1
    Wow! This comes very near to a theory I'm developing but you beat me to it! More on that later.

    P.S. I think Qui-Gon suspected the truth about the force.
  4. Voss Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 1
    What if the villians werent Sith at all? Maybe another beast race or something worse.. Can we accept a Starwars without Sith?
  5. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    Why are the Sith considered the imbalance, when both them and the Jedi use the Force? Just because Sith do bad things with it?
    To quote Palpatine: "Good is a point of view". And he's absolutely right. It is a subjective term and the way we see it depends on our own beliefs.
    Both the Sith and the Jedi want the others to follow their ways, to embrace the Light Side/Dark Side dogma. And most importantly, both want to destroy the other.

    The thousands of Jedi lost to a handful of Sith. And because of their ignorance and desire to sit all day reading books, the Galaxy was thrown into a war, where millions lost their lives.
    How are they less guilty than the Sith? Where does "good" fit into all this?
    The imbalance is caused by the extreme polarization - there is nothing in between. In one era the Jedi are almost eradicated and in the next the roles are reversed.

    "Evil" will always exist as long as there is a "Good". And because of this, Galaxy-wide wars destroyed entire planets and killed billions ever since the Force was discovered.
    The only true salvation comes from a permanent truce or total eradication of all Force-sensitives.

    Otherwise imbalance will always exist. For instance: what can prevent one of Luke's future apprentices from becoming power-hungry and going full "Evil"? The answer is: nothing can.
    So if the Prophecy was indeed fulfilled at the end of ROTJ, then it was a pretty lame Prophecy since all it did was to delay the inevitable.
    Last edited by the_sinister_hologram, Nov 4, 2012
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    No, because specific Sith have directly affected the balance of the Force, something which is not typical of Force use.

    Now you're just making things up that have no basis anywhere.

    It should be exceedingly obvious that they are "less guilty" than the Sith, if one is not blinded by critical-thought-negating moral relativism.

    Disproven by the timeline. Before the Force became unbalanced during the era of Tenebrous' master, it was balanced; after ROTJ it is balanced. At both of these points there are Force-sensitives.
  7. KED12345 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2012
    star 4
    Anything GL has ever said regarding post-ROTJ is completely invalid now imo, so anything he said about Sidious, Boba Fett, and the prophecy of the Chosen One might have completely changed.

    It's possible that Anakin hurried up the destruction of the Sith so that his son, Luke, would do the deed.

    Remember, Yoda said in ROTS it was possible that the prophecy was misread. Though ROTJ made it seem like it was fulfilled, it might very well not have been.

    In EU land, post-ROTJ, it's obvious that it wasn't (Sidious resurrected, Darth Caedus, Darth Krayt)
  8. DealAlterer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    star 1
    With all due respect, **** the prophecy and all that chosen one jib jab. Leave that for the prequels. The originals made no mention of them and I don't want these new ones to either. I thought Darth Vader's redemption was much more interesting when he was just a dude who turned bad... not some christ-like figure who was destined to end all evil by tossing an overlord down a giant shaft.

    The Force - to me - has always been a metaphor for spiritual awakening. The first film shows Luke take that leap of faith, The Empire Strikes Back saw him struggle with it, and Return Of The Jedi shows him coming to terms with it. Perhaps the story doesn't have to end there. Maybe the next movie will about him mastering and conquering it, like Yoda and Obi-Wan were able to. Obviously I have no idea, but I'm excited to see what they come up with. And that's assuming of course these next films are going to center around Luke's journey to begin with. They may not.

    *gotta star out the whole word
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Mar 10, 2013
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Tossing someone down a shaft doesn't end all evil. It just removes evil from its place of galactic dominance.
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  10. Tibanna Gas Mine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    star 1
    Exactly. Not to mention that people seem to be OK with it that Hayden will return as Anakin's ghost. His new appearence at the end of Jedi makes zero sense, with people here trying to make it seem cool and that "yoda and qui-gon taught him how to go to his former self". Give me a break. You know that Lucas just makes up this stuff as he goes along, and once he's done he has to invent reasons for how it might make sense. You know that he put Hayden as the ghost purely just to add something to the DVD.
    An older Luke in the ST should not be having conversations with his ghost-dad who looks and is younger than him just because Lucas wanted to tamper (again) with the OT. Stupid stupid stupid.
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Mar 10, 2013
  11. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I don't even know how Lucas views the prophecy, since I believe he has made reference to the idea that one can reject their destiny. So when Anakin became Darth Vader and joined the Sith, I don't think Yoda and Obi-Wan were sitting around thinking "nah, don't worry, he'll still destroy the Sith it's inevitable." It didn't seems as though Obi-Wan and Yoda made any contribution to trying to redeem Vader, instead they seemed intent on training Luke to kill Vader and recognized Luke as potentially being their last hope to destroy the Sith, and never once did they say "oh, HE must be the Chosen One in order to do that." Luke wasn't the Chosen One, nobody claimed this, and yet Obi-Wan, Yoda and Sidious all recognized the potential he had to destroy the Sith - destiny or not. And when it appeared that Luke might fail, Yoda implies that Leia could be trained and succeed where Luke failed. And again, nowhere do they suggest that its a vain effort if you're not the Chosen One, and they never suggest that either sibling is the Chosen One.

    Anakin ultimately did fulfill the prophecy, but all the prophecy states is that the Chosen One will bring balance to the Force, and Anakin did. He eliminated the Sith and restored the balance that they disrupted. But there's nothing there to state that everything was peaches and cream for ever and ever and that evil could never rise again. Or that the Force could never be imbalanced again. Though I also don't necessarily know that the two go hand in hand.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Nov 4, 2012
  12. DealAlterer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    star 1
    The prophecy was purposely vague - I imagine - because Lucas had no idea what it meant when he wrote it. At first Anakin was to restore balance and then somewhere during Episode III it meant he was to destroy the Sith, which is weird because bith good and evil must exist in order for there to be balance. It was never explained and it was never explored, thus we have no idea what it means. And beyond all that... it's stupid. It completely undermines both Vader's and Luke's journey.
  13. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    There is no basis for this statement whatoever. Lucas knew how Anakin's story ended when he came up with the prophecy. That ending is clearly the prophecy's fulfillment. This was obvious from the TPM trailer.

    Destroying the Sith doesn't destroy all evil in the universe, so there's nothing weird about it.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 4, 2012
  14. Snydbo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    This may have been said before but if you think about it, at the end of Return of the Jedi Luke is "supposedly" the only Jedi left and no Sith are alive. So if balance comes at the end of Jedi, there has got to be a hidden Sith alive somewhere. Otherwise no balance.
  15. DealAlterer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    star 1
    I forgot. Lucas clearly had a plan. Everything he's done up until this point is testament to that. He's never retconned or rewrote canon after the fact so that he could shoehorn a new idea into his universe.

    The nature of the prophecy is just far too vague and too underdeveloped for any one of us to try and make sense of it... and I don't want to begin trying. It's easier just to ignore it.
    Last edited by DealAlterer, Nov 4, 2012
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  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Force-users are not the Force. The balance of the Force is not a balance of Force-users.

    You forgot: Lucas clearly had an OT. Forgetting what happens in the OT is a big problem when trying to foresee how the prophecy will play out.

    Speak for yourself, not for everyone else.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 4, 2012
  17. GeneralCeel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2005
    star 2
    Sith = blanket term for darkside users. The opposite of Jedi. I'll use "dark jedi" and other terms when I hear it in a Star Wars movie.... and maybe even TCW.
  18. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Lucas confirmed that the Sith were acting like a cancer on the galaxy and "balance" meant no Sith, didn't he?
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  19. Keeper_of_Swords Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 5
    I am pretty sure there will be lightsaber duels in episode 7. I just hope the return of enemy lightsaber-wielding warriors is well explained and plausible, considering the Sith were brought to an end in return of the jedi.

    Also the balance to the force brought by Anakin shouldn't be overlooked in my opinion unless there was some catch in the whole thing which would be explained in episode 7.

    I look forward to new starwars movies but hope there aren't going to be any more jedi turning sith like dooku and vader...overused plots often weaken storytelling aspects in my opinion
    Voss likes this.
  20. Darth Stream Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 1
    If we refer Sith to cancer that unfortunately he can return.
    And i hope they will return and again they will try to revenge on Jedi and Republic in different way.
  21. Voss Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 1
    Ok so... Being that there is balance, the idea that Sith are waiting in the darkness would discount SIX movies..
    But the force wielders in the Mortis Trilogy could launch a new set of villians without stomping on continuty.

    That footage though on Starwars.com, the one titled 'The Skywalker Legacy', perhaps thats over and now on to a new legacy? One trained by Luke to carry on the torch?

    And with this a new adversary, one not aligned to jedi or sith. Perhaps there needed Balance, so that when this foe entered the picture they could be defeated?
  22. UK Sullustian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 4
    Lucas does not mean balance as in a set of scales. "Whoops, too much Light, lets kill some off to bring it back to balance." He meant a Bhuddist sort of balance. The Jedi are all Zen. The Sith are disruption and chaos.

    So balance means "Removal of desperation and restoring to a clam, Zen state."

    That should not be confused with what we are discussing here. This is Showbusiness. The Sith will be back because they are cool and draw audiences. They will make up a storyline excuse why... but they will be back.

    The aim of large conglomerates like Disney is generating cash. Sith draw money. Ergo. Sith will be back. And there will be more that two!

    UKS
  23. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    The Balance of the Force is inconsistent in the way that Wookieepedia describes it (still attributing it to Lucas), even between EU works, and how Lucas has now decided to show it in TCW.

    From Wookieepedia: (credited source: The Mythology of Star Wars with George Lucas and Bill Moyers)

    The idea of balance of the Force, a central tenet of the Jedi Order, referred to the ideal state in which the Force existed in nature, namely as the light side. According to Jedi dogma, the presence of the dark side corrupted and destroyed this natural balance

    The Old Republic echoes this sentiment:

    At their new enclave, the Jedi refined a code that would guide them. They became a monastic warrior people, devoting themselves to the pursuit of peace and knowledge, rather than personal power. In the wake of the Force Wars, the Jedi also had a new understanding of the Force. They saw that the Force, while naturally light, could be used for corrupt ends. Those who did not respect its power risked falling to the dark side.

    Both of the above attribute the natural state of the Force as being the light side and that the dark side causes imbalance. The Mortis Trilogy of TCW established that the Dark Side is part of the balance and that too much of the light side without the dark side to counterbalance it would be harmful.

    From the TCW episode Overlords (with Lucas involved in the idea).

    "There are some who would like to exploit our power. The Sith are but one. Too much light or dark would be the undoing of life as you understand it. When news reached me that the Chosen One had been found, I needed to see for myself." - Father

    Wookieepedia also suggests that Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious were the cause of shifting the Force out of balance (credited source: Darth Plaugeis (novel)).

    Sidious and Plagueis then entered a meditative trance and managed to tip the scales of balance in the favor of darkness.

    And I just find that kind of odd that the Chosen One prophecy is in response to a disruption of the balance that doesn't even happen until Palpatine's time. With the prophecy going hand-in-hand with the destruction of the Sith in ROTS, I would have thought that the imbalance would have been ancient (since the formation of the Sith). Though the Darth Plagueis novel also suggests that the predecessor of Darth Plagueis' master created a rift that allowed the Jedi to feel the Dark Side for the first time since Darth Bane's era, which seems odd, if - as Mortis suggests - the Dark Side is a natural part of the balance.

    So pretty much... I can't find any consistency with this prophecy and in the ST they either need to definitively address it or just throw out the idea, since it's left vague and inconsistent.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Nov 5, 2012
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  24. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    My personal take on it is this: the Force, in some mystical way not involving midichlorians, affects and is affected by the events in the galaxy.

    If you think 2 Sith tip the scales that much, wouldn't thousands of Sith totally screw up the GFFA?

    But I think the triumph of the "Rule of Two" was that it allowed the Sith to spread corruption, complacency, greed, throughout the galaxy, increasing the power of the Dark Side, without ever being confronted by the Jedi.

    Or something :p

    I never got into the NJO novels but I always thought it would be interesting to see Luke et al grapple with formalizing things but not making the same mistakes as the old Order.

    Having some JKII/Academy type "Jedi gone wrong" could be interesting.

    Maybe they could get Nathan Fillion to play Kyle. ;)
  25. the-jedi-prince Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2011
    star 2
    In Darth Plageuis or Book of Sith it is said that there are many sith in the galaxy but only 2 dessend directly from Darth Bane.

    I believe Mortis will play a part in the new trilogy and the father, son and daughter where more than jedi and sith and where included in book of sith, Darth Plageus and the clone wars.

    The son wanted to get away from mortis and rule the galaxy.

    Jedi were not enough to stop him
    Last edited by the-jedi-prince, Nov 5, 2012