Balancing the Force

The arguments in the "Anakin vs. Anakin" thread inspired me to start this new thread.

For a long time, I have contemplated the concept of balance. Yin and Yang, unless I am mistaken, suggest that there is balance when the forces of light and darkness are equal. At least, that is my interpretation of Yin and Yang.

The Star Wars prophecy regarding Anakin Skywalker claims that he will bring balance to the Force.
The movies suggest that he achieves his alleged destiny the moment he betrays Emperor Palpatine and destroys him.

But does that truly bring balance to the Force?

Palpatine is gone and only Luke is left standing. Does that not mean that the scale is now tipped on the side of light? Is there not an imbalance created by this?

Just because light reigns does not mean that there is balance. More light only tips the scale, ruining equilibrium.

For there to be true balance, would not the forces of light and dark need to be just as strong as one another?

 

I suppose that's one way to look at it, but my interpretation of it was that it gave the Jedi a new start.

At around the time that the Jedi began to be wiped out, they had begun to falter. I remember reading in a novel about Obi-Wan saying that in a way, they were too good for their own good.

Things began to change among the Jedi, despite their attempts to stop it. By having them wiped out and left with one Jedi Knight, it gave them the opportunity for a fresh start. I think this could also be why some of the laws of the Old Jedi aren't being applied to the New Jedi. (Luke and Mara being married and having children for example.) Maybe Luke DID learn about the laws of the old Jedi, but ignored them because they weren't that important. Didn't Luke find that ship on Dathomir that had hundreds of disks about the laws and history of the Jedi?

I think that it's possible that Anakin Skywalker brought "balance" to the Force by allowing the Jedi to have a fresh start. Maybe the idea of a balance isn't supposed to be taken literally.

 

Ah, but starting anew is not even close in meaning to the word "balance".
If, in fact, the the prophecy did not intend the word "balance" to be taken literally, then I think a thesaurus could have come in handy.

Achieving equilibrium and starting from scratch are not one and the same.

And yet, now even I am beginning to question my argument.

With a new start, everything is blank--the scales are empty. Therefore, there is balance.

However, the scales were not empty after the fall of Palpatine and Vader. Not at all. A powerful Jedi of the light was being weighed--Luke Skywalker.
Thus, were are now back to the issue of whether or not balance is the same as starting anew.

Wait...*considers this*
Now I'm confused...

 

There is also a thing to think about that not only was palpatine weakened(because he did return several years later), but lumiya and others of the darkside ilk had shown up years after the confrontation as well. How permanent was this balance? Even the vong send waves of the darkside of the force(though they themselves can't be felt) when they destroy life. Waves that give those around the death pain, example ithor.

 

Lucas introduced the idea of "balance in the force" with TPM, and I think the books had already kind of goofed this up a little - chiefly with the creation of Mara, who was an apprentice to Palpatine during the OT years.

But, it's important to remember that the films stand on their own. When examining the idea of the "balance" prophecy, I don't think you can include the books for the general meaning of this prophecy to work. It only works within the context of the films, that Anakin wiped out the Jedi Order, leaving only two dark and two light. Thus balancing the Force.

 

Mara was not an apprentice, she wasn't even a jedi nor sith. she was just a neutral force user according to the EU. basic force sensitive.

The EU have varying concepts of what the balance means, DSSB goes into one itself.

 

Yes, but there are other Sith mentioned.

My interpretation is that the Sith are the imbalance, they use only one aspect of the force, and whats worse. As I see it using the force only for destruction would be just as bad as using the force only for healing. Only when the teo aspects of the force are equal are things balanced.

Of course that is just my understanding.

 

Wasn't Palpatine training her? Wasn't that how she learned to use the Force? Doesn't that make her his student, and as such, an apprentice?

 

Doesn't that make her his student, and as such, an apprentice?

The Emperor did teach Mara some basic leasons about the force, but not nearly as much as someone like Vader. He didn't want her to be his student or apprentice, he wanted her to be his Hand. He wanted someone completely loyal to him.

 

I concur, loser_fett. Mara was merely a tool for Palpy to wield against Luke.

 

Another idea is that Anakin brung balance to the Force when he destroyed most of the Jedi, thus leaving two Jedi (Yoda and Obi-Wan) and two Sith (Palpatine and Vader). In this case, the Force is balanced. I'm not sure if thats the correct case, but its an idea

 

Quote: "Another idea is that Anakin brung balance to the Force when he destroyed most of the Jedi, thus leaving two Jedi (Yoda and Obi-Wan) and two Sith (Palpatine and Vader). In this case, the Force is balanced. I'm not sure if thats the correct case, but its an idea."

In regards to the above situation, the forces of light and darkness are equal here.

*snickers*
If only the Jedi fully comprehended the prophecy...That Anakin was to bring balance by killing off the Jedi! *snickers more*

*recomposes self*
Of course, we have yet to be presented with the true meaning of the prophecy. I, however, find this particular theory very entertaining. *snickers quietly...amused with the possibility that the Jedi prophecy might have been the reason behind the Jedi purge*

 

In the Dark Empire sourcebook the Dark Side is alluded to be a natural and very useful part of the universe in that anger, fear, aggression, and entropy are all natural parts of the universe.

However from what I could tell the excess of these things as the Jedi hold their perspective are the disbalance. The Light Side of the Force can indeed be excessive in that a person who knows not fear, sweat, weakness, or the like is a falsehood.

Like Taoists balancing these things are important.

Emperor Palpatine was literally almost pure evil and brought about not only a terrible evil in the universe in himself but was swinging the entirety of all things toward Darkness with the Galactic Empire and his attemps to corrupt all beings it seems.

Anakin brought balance by destroying him and creating his children who destroyed his legions, his political respectability, his ideals, and his Dark Jedi Servants....even the Emperor Reborn could not stand against Anakin's legacy.

I believe the Sith will be eventually extinguished in Luminya as well.

I do not believe the Jedi were so far gone that they had to be annhilated however. Anakin may have achieved his destiny but in my mind the Jedi's weakness being purged was only a dramatic end.

In any case for the most part the Jedi themselves are balanced beings

 

Quote: "In any case for the most part the Jedi themselves are balanced beings."

This would mean that in order to bring balance to the Force, there must be Jedi, correct? The Jedi are the balance?

However, the Jedi are affiliated with good. They are not balanced literally, are they? They uphold the virtues of justice. Thus, they are only one side of the spectrum. They represent "holiness", so to speak.

Furthermore, consider their code:
There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no death; there is the Force.

Their very mandate restricts emotion and passion. For a person to be balanced, they must possess equal portions of each quality, correct? Otherwise, wouldn't there be an imbalance?

I understand what you are saying about the Jedi being manifestations of equilibrium, but I believe that matter could be acutely argued.

 

What if the balancing of the force was not for anyone's best interest. Sure, it could be argued that the Jedi Order was crumbling under its own weight, and that the "purge" brought about a needed change.

But, what if that is not the case. What if the "balancing of the Force" was something that was simply prophecied to happen, not as something that "needed" to happen.

Prophecies are, after all, visions and/or predictions of things to come. There's nothing that requires a prophecy to be good. It's simply an event that will come to pass.

Perhaps the "balance of the Force" was simply how they chose to describe it. And that a "chosen one" would be responsible for that "balancing," because in the end both Light and Dark would be equal. I mean, how do we even know the Jedi knew they would be destroyed?

 

Quote: "What if the "balancing of the Force" was something that was simply prophecied to happen, not as something that "needed" to happen."

Interesting thought. You are correct by saying that prophecies do not need to benefit anyone.

Unfortunately, I do not believe we'll recieve an official answer.

 

Valyn wrote:

Unfortunately, I do not believe we'll recieve an official answer.

Why do you say that? It's possible it could be revealed at the end of EIII. Maybe Yoda and Obi-Wan will discuss what has happened before going their separate ways for 20 years until ANH and ESB.

 

My friend one thing to note is that balance is not necessarily being half good and half evil. If you represented good as pure water and evil as raw sewage then putting them together does NOT necessarily make it something you want to drink....it's filthy even when it is exactly equal. I believe the Jedi code is about controlling oneself and being "good" by being balanced beings. They are balanced because emotions for good or evil are examined logically...

After all we have positive as well as negative emotions

Mainly because the Force Created Anakin and that's a sign it needed to happen.

 

Directly from the mouth of George Lucas, Anakin brought balance to the Force by destroying Palpatine. Period, end of story.

 

Charlemagne19 wrote:

My friend one thing to note is that balance is not necessarily being half good and half evil. If you represented good as pure water and evil as raw sewage then putting them together does NOT necessarily make it something you want to drink....it's filthy even when it is exactly equal. I believe the Jedi code is about controlling oneself and being "good" by being balanced beings. They are balanced because emotions for good or evil are examined logically...

By mixing the sewage and water, you're not balancing anything. You're creating dirty water. To balance them, you'd have an equal amount of sewage and an equal amount of water existing side by side. Water representing one thing, sewage another.

After all we have positive as well as negative emotions

Right, but how does Anakin killing Palpatine create balance? What was balanced as a result? With that event, Anakin died, leaving Luke all by himself with emotions and knowledge that do not leave him balanced. So, in the end, what's balanced?

Mainly because the Force Created Anakin and that's a sign it needed to happen.

Simply because the Force created Anakin doesn't mean anything needed to happen. There is no sign that the Jedi Order was in danger of destroying anything or anyone, or that the balance of the Force was the only way to "save" anyone. But the galaxy itself was in danger and the Republic was being corrupted. Did the Jedi need to be virtually exterminated to stop that? I don't see why.

Thus, the prophecy simply served as a prediction of an event which would result in the balancing of the Force. It didn't need to happen, exactly, but it is going to happen. And the result of that prophecy was the end of the Jedi Order.

 

Directly from the mouth of George Lucas, Anakin brought balance to the Force by destroying Palpatine. Period, end of story.

When and where did he say this?

 

Quote: "Directly from the mouth of George Lucas, Anakin brought balance to the Force by destroying Palpatine. Period, end of story."

I suppose that is the "official" answer. I, however, am not satisfied by that. It seems too simple. Granted, it's Lucas's realm, but maybe he is just supplying us with an easy fix because he was incapable of contemplating the matter as deeply as we are?
Of course, maybe he had better things to do...Like a life.

Anyway, no. The whole concept of "balance" is too profound to be dismissed with one simple act. By destroying Palpatine, how does that bring balance? Now there is more light in the universe.

And, by saying this, I have now returned us to the beginning of this discussion. Poor, poor me.

 

"Prophecy is a guess that becomes true."-Vir in Babylon 5

"Always in motion the future is."-Yoda in ESB.

I have always seen the future as many different paths one could take leading to many different destinations. To which path we take depends upon the circumstances of the present and the lessons of the past.
It's like Russian roulette where the two outcomes depends on many things, how strongly did you spin the revolver, Is it a good bullet or a dudd, Will the trigger mechanism work, Is something jamming the barrel...The balance prophecy, I think, is a possible path the Jedi can take among several possible paths, some very close to one another.
This particular prophecy may have been one that was seen and written down and remembered well, because of its puzzling nature (everyone in this thread can attest to that).

However I'd like to say Jedi don't put too much weight in prophecies. As Qui-gonn said, "Be mindful of the future but not at the expense of the moment."
This is because they know that the future is always in motion, and that there's no real gaurantee that the possible future that comes to them in some force inspired vision is the future that will actually happen.

The balance prophecy is a guess that Qui-gonn believed he found the key [Anakin] to that meant it was actually going to happen, but who is to say that he is correct.

Besides I like to think that Anakin is not the person that brings balance to the force, but rather it his son, Luke, that culminates the prophecy.

 

Quote: "Besides I like to think that Anakin is not the person that brings balance to the force, but rather it his son, Luke, that culminates the prophecy."

In two other threads, I proposed similar suggestions. *Nods in acknowledgement*

Quote: "Directly from the mouth of George Lucas, Anakin brought balance to the Force by destroying Palpatine. Period, end of story."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in an earlier thread, was it not PadmeBra who articulated her frustration with literature fans interrupting discussions on the movie forums by claiming EU explanations are fact?
I recall her (at least, I believe it was her) saying that she disliked it when she and her movie-forum peers are speculating about the aftermath of "Return of the Jedi" only to have a literature fan go in and disrupt their discussions by giving the EU aftermath and claiming it as fact.

Considering this (and assuming I'm correct in my reference), does PadmeBra's post here not seem hypocritical? We, after all, were speculating. She included herself in our discussion not in order to contribute, but to express Lucas's word as end of story.

She did exactly what she said she despised others for doing (again, assuming my references are correct).

If it was not PadmeBra who said this, then I am deeply sorry for my mistake.

 

My interpretation of the Final Sequence of Return of the Jedi bringing balance.......

The Jedi were not destroyed by Anakin Skywalker to bring Balance. They were destroyed yes by Darth Vader but he was the mere insturment of a doom that had been long comming. If Uncle Palpy hadn't killed them with Vader then he would have killed them with his legions of stormtroopers, Imperial Star Destroyers, Sedriss, Solusar, Tremayne, C'boath, Mara, Roganda, you get the picture...

The Jedi died because they were unable to adapt to the comming darkness. They were out of balance with the Force and had ceased to know the Dark Side of the Force's temptations...thus they were easily swept aside by it.

To keep going with the Dirty Water example (thank you very much for that wonderful retort there-very cool) the Jedi are the scales...yes they have light and dark existing in parts of them but again it's one individual entity that has such. Furthermore the Dark side includes things in the Jedi that are Good but not Light.

For instance Luke blowing up the Death Star was an act of the Dark Side but it was for the greater promotion of the Light.

It's complex but then most theology is.

What happened on the Second Death Star in Palpatine's throne room was Darth Vader destroyed Emperor Palpatine and chopped off the head of the Dragon. Without Palpatine the Empire which was the key force of the disbalance in the universe began to wither and die swiftly...as Leia put it "The Empire died on Endor"

With no paralyzed by concepts of Light (not Good which is balanced) Jedi or republicans caught in Stasis (which is an example of Light gone wild) the galaxy was like a clean slate with a Rebellion and Empire there to begin to mix to form the new whole

This is not true to the minute example in every individual but together as a whole pretty good.

Realize that Luke as the sole remaining Jedi Knight in existence is not like Obi Wan Kenobi, Yoda, or even oddly Darth Maul and presumably Palpatine. He is a Jedi Knight who has known immense suffering and unbearable agony, sacrafice, sorrow which drives him just as surely as his love of the universe, control, and desire for peace.

Luke at the end of the Return of the Jedi is a balanced one. Without his glove of Darth Vader to serve as a balance he would have been overwhelmed by Darkness....

In effect a bit of the Dark Side is a vacination against a Virus. Fire that tempers steel and eliminates impurities rather than reduces to slag