Bans and Mods - Smart or Not?

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Grand Admiral Thran, Aug 17, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: JoinTheSchwarz, LAJ_FETT, Ramza
  1. Grand Admiral Thran Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 1999
    star 4
    Perhaps, I'm not fully explaining myself:

    Over the years, the JC has degraded in overall maturity. Seriously. People hide behind the ToS and the 'rules' to spread their immaturity and wanton attention-whoring.

    When someone tells them to shut the hell up or calls them an immature moron for their idiotic posts...

    Bam. Ban.

    Yet, they themselves, who contribute nothing and make this place seem more frivious day by day.

    I'm sure such posts as "I'm the queen of England." Or "Poop day!" have real value and merit of maturity on these boards that those who have posted afore me have mentioned.

    People seem to think, because this is the net, that all rules of human interaction DO go out the window. To reply to Kimball_Kinnison:

    Would you go run around your work place screaming I'm the queen of England? Or Let's have a poop day? No, you'd be fired. Would you disrupt class with some childish retort that just skims under what's considered 'proper language' for school? No, you'd still get referred. Would you act like a complete gimp to your girlfriend or wife? No, because then you really would be single. No one wants to date a brat, a loser, a twit, ect. ect. whatever term you wish to call someone who hasn't grown up at all.

    This is the *adult* world folks, not your little safe haven to escape total reality -- it's a message board. I wish people would start treating it as such and not some online persona where they have a 'reputation' to uphold. Or some cyber reality where they can be accepted without being shunned.

    And I'm so sick of the term 'bully'. God, I swear, most of you haven't seen REAL bullies if you call someone online calling you a name a 'bully.' Personally, bullies aren't real. There's jerks and there's criminals. If a jerk does something violent or physical, then he's a criminal and should be treated as such. He stalks or abusively slanders or various other emotional/mental crimes..again, a nice pretty cell is awaiting him. With a big, black man to teach him how to respect. ;)

    Just because the ToS says be nice to everyone, and by human nature we should, it doesn't mean we should allow this degregation to grow in the shadows like fungus, either.

    I seriously am apalled that someone can post "I'M GOING TO KILL MYSELF!" and evade bans, which by that is obvious trolling (not punished due to pity?) but a person who tells them to get a life and stop whining, gets a ban.

    Wow, I seriously wonder what half of you people do in real life relationships in the workplace or with a serious SO/wife/hubby. There is something called 'sickeningly PC', and the mainstream of people don't enjoy it. Of course, then again, this is a starwars message board...not like we're getting a large demographics of America, too.

    -GAT
  2. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    This is the *adult* world folks

    Your right it is the adult world. If you can't have any intelligently discuss with out insulting people well then go to a board that let's you do that.

    When insults come in the intelligent discuss goes out the window.
  3. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "that's sad if expressing one's opinion without flaming is being a bully."

    Expressing the opinion isn't the issue, and I've made that quite clear. It's the opinion, itself, that you are trying to express that is the problem. Do you see the difference? ?[face_plain]

    "Of course, then again, this is a starwars message board...not like we're getting a large demographics of America, too."

    [face_laugh] So true! :p
  4. RogueRoyalGuard Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2002
    star 2
    you have a knack for putting my thoughts into words Thran. Had I known re-enforcements were coming, I wouldn't backed down so easily.
    in that case: disregard my last two posts


    "When insults come in the intelligent discuss goes out the window. "

    not in my opinion. when insults come, weak people who can't stand them go out the window, leaving strong minded people to discus the topic maturely
  5. Grand Admiral Thran Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 1999
    star 4
    Your right it is the adult world. If you can't have any intelligently discuss with out insulting people well then go to a board that let's you do that.

    #1, don't feed me hay and call it ice cream.

    These boards rarely have indepth, intelligent discussion on them. Most of the time, they are social threads started to 'chat' or gush or bash or some minor discussion of shared interest. Don't hide under the falsetto that this place is some pinnicle of human intellectual discovery. It ain't.

    Secondly, I'm not speaking of blatent insulting, I'm speaking of those who skate around, under, or near that line or those who openly brace immaturity. Believe me, you'd not want me as a moderator, because those people who do post idiotic threads would find them locked faster than their heads could spin. I strongly believe the userbase of tfn since before mid-2000 was more mature, more intellect than the current gush of users we have today. Again, this is an average, and many exceptional people have come along since then. But again, aggregate.

    When insults come in the intelligent discuss goes out the window.

    And, what we have here is 'in the box' thinking or the narrow view point of what I was talking about. You have focused in on one thing, and not the idea I'm discussing really.

    -GAT

    EDIT: I comma splice too much. :(
  6. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I strongly believe the userbase of tfn since before mid-2000 was more mature, more intellect than the current gush of users we have today. Again, this is an average, and many exceptional people have come along since then. But again, aggregate.

    That applies to the userbase of the internet in general, not just TFN. Look at the big picture and realize that the web used to be a haven for mostly intellectual and otherwise intelligent people. As the number of people that go online has increased over time, the amount of pure intelligence has been outweighed by the number of "average" people.

    That isn't any grand revelation. It's just a fact of internet life, and if you go to just about any website or board system that has existed since 1998 or so, you'll almost certainly find the same trend.
  7. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    And, what we have here is 'in the box' thinking or the narrow view point of what I was talking about. You have focused in on one thing, and not the idea I'm discussing really.

    You sure showed me there. ;) If said person has to insult someone just to prove anything then there is no point in discuss anything with said person.
  8. Grand Admiral Thran Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 1999
    star 4
    KW, I'm not talking about the Star Trek Geek Fan club that meets on IRC every night as being intelligent :p ;)

    Even though you are correct in that assertion, why should that brand of senseless immaturity be labeled to here as well? Just because everyone else does it...


    That isn't any grand revelation. It's just a fact of internet life, and if you go to just about any website or board system that has existed since 1998 or so, you'll almost certainly find the same trend.

    You're making me feel somehow more geeky than I should, KW. I feel dirty now. So dirty. *scratches himself* AH! The dirt! It's not coming off! :(

    ---

    You sure showed me there. If said person has to insult someone just to prove anything then there is no point in discuss anything with said person.

    No, I didn't insult you, so don't hide under that guise for a second. You clearly missed my thesis and went for a minor supporting detail.

    It isn't my fault you did that, don't assert that it is, or somehow assert that I 'immaturely insulted you' when you didn't analytically read my post. You zoned in on one minor point, that I didn't even stress moderately, and applied pressure in an attempt to loosen my arguement. I'm sorry, I know how to debate better than that.

    -GAT

    Edit: Various spelling errors and comma splices again. I write like I speak way too much. Pauses in speech != comma splices darnit! :(
  9. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Even though you are correct in that assertion, why should that brand of senseless immaturity be labeled to here as well? Just because everyone else does it...


    By whose standards is that or anything else "immature"? Why not accept people's behavior for what it is, or find places where the majority of people fit your standards of maturity?

  10. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    It isn't my fault you did that, don't assert that it is, or somehow assert that I 'immaturely insulted you' when you didn't analytically read my post. You zoned in on one minor point, that I didn't even stress moderately, and applied pressure in an attempt to losen my arguement. I'm sorry, I know how to debate better than that.

    Your still not getting it. When two people are discussing something they should be able to do that with out any insults. So we will call these two people person A and person B. If perosn B has to start insuling person A. Well that ends any and all discuss.

    You say you are a better deabter. Well I have taken many debate classes. The best debaters I have seen are those who can debate with out insults. They wehn hands down. The other person who has to thrown in insults well they loss the debate ever time. Insults = no intelligent discussens.

  11. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "not in my opinion. when insults come, weak people who can't stand them go out the window, leaving strong minded people to discus the topic maturely"

    Fine, but your opinion is not shared nor supported by the TOS, and likely it never will. Why you continue this discussion is beyond belief,

    "These boards rarely have indepth, intelligent discussion on them. Most of the time, they are social threads started to 'chat' or gush or bash or some minor discussion of shared interest. Don't hide under the falsetto that this place is some pinnicle of human intellectual discovery. It ain't."

    Yet you support lessening the standard even more? ?[face_plain]

    "Believe me, you'd not want me as a moderator, because those people who do post idiotic threads would find them locked faster than their heads could spin."

    And now you wish to raise the standard? ?[face_plain]

    I'm confused. [face_plain]

    "find places where the majority of people fit your standards of maturity?"

    Agreed.
  12. Syntax Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 5
    I think insulting people IS wrong, but it is a very important part of life.

    Care to elaborate on that?

    I make it a personal practice to avoid insulting people in real life and try to do the same here. But if others want to insult people I have no problem with that.

    That seems like a mild contradiction of terms. You don't like insulting people... but you've got no problem doing it whenever you feel it's necessary? Isn't that hypocrisy, or at least a double-standard?

    That's like someone who disapproves of narcotics and thinks it's wrong, but doesn't have a problem toking up if they've had a stressful day and need to unwind.

    It is my personal opinion that Americans and every other "advanced" society are getting softer and weaker.

    ...and you think you can solve (or at least improve) that by dishing out insults on a Star Wars messageboard to people you've never (and probably will never) see in real life? Um... yeah. Right. That makes a LOT of sense. [face_plain]

    when people no longer know how to handle an insult, they become weak, and un-able to deal with problems as effectively as they would have had they learned how to recover from the shock of being insulted off and on.

    Insults escalate. That's a fact.
    And situations should never have to escalate to insults. If you're going to claim to be a mature, intelligent person, you shouldn't have to put down others for any reason (to make you look good, to make them look bad, whatever).

    Growing up, I had some bully right next door who consistently insulted me and tried to beet me up.

    You know what you do? You inform the authorities (his parents, your parents), or you kick his ass. As stated, actions speak louder than words. And of course, on this messageboard, you have no option to cave someone's head in with a crowbar if they flame you. And of course, you think you can "get away with" flaming people because the Internet is "anonymous". :rolleyes:

    It only made me stronger, and if I had a choice of living next to him or some one else I would chose him.

    I somehow doubt that.
    If you want to live next to him because he taunts you and makes you feel bad, there's something wrong.
    If you want to live next to him because you've managed to insult him and become a bully yourself, there's something equally wrong.

    But I do maintain that people need to be able to deal with insults.

    ...and dealing with them on a Star Wars fan messageboard is NOT the way to learn to deal with insults. Try insulting people in the real world and deal with that, or see how people deal with your insults. Report back to us after your broken arm has healed after that fiasco.

    no. but learning how to deal with one is.

    I don't see the corrolary between dealing with bullies, and showing support of your country...? ?[face_plain]

    that's sad if expressing one's opinion without flaming is being a bully.

    No, but expressing one's opinion WITH flaming IS being a bully.

    Here's any old saying it take a big man to walk away form a pointless fight.

    Hell, it takes a big man to walk away from ANY fight.

    Over the years, the JC has degraded in overall maturity. Seriously. People hide behind the ToS and the 'rules' to spread their immaturity and wanton attention-whoring.

    When someone tells them to shut the hell up or calls them an immature moron for their idiotic posts...

    Bam. Ban.


    1. I agree about the maturity level and attention-whoring.
    HOWEVER...
    2. You're not a Moderator, so it is not your place to "police" the forums by telling people when they're doing something foolish and should stop. In fact, I got in a discussion with a few friends about this last night after watching a few episodes of the anime ".hack//sign", which is a portrayal of an online RPG and the characters within, and has some characters who feel they can "police" the game and "deal with" characters whom they think are being stupid, or are "breaking the rules", even though they themselves are not Moderators in any way.
    In the
  13. Grand Admiral Thran Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 1999
    star 4
    By whose standards is that or anything else "immature"?

    By whose standards is that for flaming, or bating? Or anything else 'forbidden' on these boards, KW? Careful, slipping into realitivism.

    Why not accept people's behavior for what it is, or find places where the majority of people fit your standards of maturity?

    And why do you issue bans, KW? Why must I leave this 'sinking ship' (nod to pirate day!) like a dying rat as many who have come before have done, instead of trying to lobby the administration to help change the course/use a bilge pump to save it? I've been here for four years, that's a fairly decent chunk of the time I've been on the internet.

    ---

    Your still not getting it.

    You are or You're. :p I can't stand when people use your for everything.

    When two people are discussing something they should be able to do that with out any insults.

    Depends. When you debate, you insult the stance, not the person. To defame the position of your opponent as being 'less worthy' or somehow 'silly' is to immediately cause paradigm shifts in people's thoughts. Keep in mind, we're not discussing debate tournys where you score points for presentation of argument, point-counter-point, and civility. If by those standards of 'clean, utopian' debate, then you would be correct.

    However, look at the Senate/House or (my fav!) British parliment. You'll find this isn't the case. But, nor do they blatently insult each other (usually).

    So we will call these two people person A and person B. If perosn B has to start insuling person A. Well that ends any and all discuss.

    You're shifting into a grey area now, be careful. What do you deem as an insult? A blatent name calling? Or the more insidious undermining of crediblity and character? Ah. Look at politics. The master science for answers. ;)

    You say you are a better deabter. Well I have taken many debate classes. The best debaters I have seen are those who can debate with out insults. They wehn hands down.

    Again, you are talking about a class where the object isn't to 'win', but to present your point of view the best. When you get in the 'real' world, people can debate as good as you and use spins, logic arguments, and post de facto (or inspite of ideal) arguments to cause gridlock. Hence why many politicians at this time, will turn to a secondary tactic of damaging the base at which their other person's argument stands on, rather than building his own higher. You can only go so high, after all.

    The other person who has to thrown in insults well they loss the debate ever time. Insults = no intelligent discussens.

    Again, we aren't talking about someone going:


    "Well, I do believe that..."
    "NO! YOU SUCK! YOU MORON!"


    We're talking about:

    "OMG HAYDEN SUCKS AS ANAKIN!11```"
    "Dude, shut up or put up, that was incredibly stupid of you."


    The former wouldn't get a ban, but the latter may. Do you understand why the former is far worse than the latter?

    ---

    Moving on:

    Fine, but your opinion is not shared nor supported by the TOS, and likely it never will. Why you continue this discussion is beyond belief,

    Just because it won't ever be changed, doesn't mean he must immediately abdicate his position or cease all discussion that MIGHT spurn a mild change in the rules, rather than a radical one.

    Yet you support lessening the standard even more?

    Actually, no, I'm for tightening the reigns on immature, idiotic posting. Just instead of issueing MORE bans left and right, to let the user base go the way of free economy, and regulate itself out a bit to find a new equilibrium of maturity before the administration sets down a real solid rule on maturity here.

    You can't set a policy if you don't know what the base is. Well you can, but it's not too prudent.

    And now you wish to raise the standard?

    I mentioned earlier about people being unable to read anything at more than face value. *sigh*


    "find places w
  14. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    By whose standards is that for flaming, or bating? Or anything else 'forbidden' on these boards, KW? Careful, slipping into realitivism.


    I'd say the standards that the majority of reasonable people would view as correct. Certainly it's subjective, and there's no concrete definition.

    And why do you issue bans, KW

    To uphold the rules of the JC.

    Why must I leave this 'sinking ship' (nod to pirate day!) like a dying rat as many who have come before have done, instead of trying to lobby the administration to help change the course/use a bilge pump to save it? I've been here for four years, that's a fairly decent chunk of the time I've been on the internet.


    Before I say anything else, I fail to see why you constantly say you've been here for four years. You haven't been. You may have registered four years ago, but your time here has been inconsistent, and a simple look at your posting history shows that. It's mostly irrelevant, but it would be nice to not have to hear that you've been here for four years.

    You don't have to leave the JC at all. I was simply asking whether it might be a better idea for you to seek out places that actively fit your standards of intelligence and maturity, rather than attempt to engage in changing hundreds or thousands of people's behavior.

    I'll spell it out for you: The JC is not going to return to the standards and times that you remember, and the administration does not agree with many of your views as to what is and what is not acceptable (and how it should be instead). There may be a time in the future, after the movies have all been released and the DVDs are on the shelves of the majority of Star Wars fans that the JC (if it still exists) will finally come to be the way you want it.

    That time is a long way off, if it ever comes to pass, and I'll be doing my best to keep the JC a constructive and positive environment for as long as I'm here.

    Depends. When you debate, you insult the stance, not the person.

    How about refraining from insulting at all?

    Civilized discussion wins much more respect from the people you're debating and those who are observing than debating that involves insults.

    Actually, no, I'm for tightening the reigns on immature, idiotic posting. Just instead of issueing MORE bans left and right, to let the user base go the way of free economy, and regulate itself out a bit to find a new equilibrium of maturity before the administration sets down a real solid rule on maturity here.


    I feel safe in saying that your standards of maturity are not consistent with the majority of people (certainly on the JC itself), and beyond that, standards here are created for themselves and how TFN wishes this site to be, not in response to how various factions in the membership wish it to be.

    What you regard as "idiotic" or "immature" posting may not even raise an eyebrow in the eyes of many other rational, respectful and intelligent people.

    Since you have been comparing this to real life, you should remember that you cannot force people (individually or otherwise) to be "mature".
  15. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    This is the *adult* world folks, not your little safe haven to escape total reality -- it's a message board. I wish people would start treating it as such and not some online persona where they have a 'reputation' to uphold. Or some cyber reality where they can be accepted without being shunned.

    There are many different kinds of message boards. As others have stated, that sort of behavior is allowed on some boards, but not all of them. The owners of this site, as well as the rest of the administration, have decided that such behavior will not be allowed here.

    For example, in some of my programming classes, we have had a message board available to sare information with our classmates. At times, I go to various message boards to discuss the Linux operating system, giving and receiving help with various issues. I come here to discuss various topics in the Senate. Each is a different board with a different set of rules. I don't go to my class's board and expect to follow the same rules as I do at a Linux board.

    It is the same here. Simply because we are online in a semi-anonymous environment does not mean that you do not have to abide by the rules of that environment. However, the decision to post here is the decision to abide by the rules here. It is that simple.

    Kimball Kinnison
  16. Syntax Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 5
    When you debate, you insult the stance, not the person.

    That is false. When you debate, you disagree with the stance, and question the logic and reasoning behind it. "Inulting" does not factor into the concept in any way.

    To defame the position of your opponent as being 'less worthy' or somehow 'silly' is to immediately cause paradigm shifts in people's thoughts.

    And there's a difference between undermining the position, and undermining the person holding the position. One is logical action in a debate, the other is an ad hominem fallacy. Do you see the difference?

    When you get in the 'real' world, people can debate as good as you and use spins, logic arguments, and post de facto (or inspite of ideal) arguments to cause gridlock.

    Absolutely correct. However, resorting to personal attacks and insults shows a lack of character on your part.

    The former wouldn't get a ban, but the latter may.

    The former would get a ban. On the forums I run, it gets at least a temp-ban every time, because person #2 is being intolerant and isn't respecting the other person or their opinion. They don't have to AGREE with the opinion, but they DO have to respect it.

    Actually, no, I'm for tightening the reigns on immature, idiotic posting.

    ...and the way to do that is NOT to flame other users or "police" it yourself.
    Let me explain your place on this messageboard. You are a user. You are not a Moderator. You are not an Administrator. You are a user.

    Just instead of issueing MORE bans left and right, to let the user base go the way of free economy, and regulate itself out a bit to find a new equilibrium of maturity before the administration sets down a real solid rule on maturity here.

    That's called "anarchy". There's a reason why no civillized countries in the world use that as their model of government (or rather, model of lack-of-government). I guess you're saying that we should let people go out and kill people they think are murderers, as opposed to letting due process of law handle them? Can you see the problem with that?

    That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. To be here for four years, and watch things change, then to attempt to try to suggest change (you know, it is patriotic or supportive to critique. I know, hard concept to grasp after 9/11 and the "if you aren't with us, you're a traitor!" mentallity that goes around...but bear with me) for the better is showing support and a tad bit of fan/user loyalty to TFN.

    ...but if you think there's SUCH a problem, and you KNOW it's not going to change, why continue trying to lobby for it to change? Go somewhere else if it's that big of a deal for you.

    You will see this common trend in TFN history with the SE, TPM, and AotC where the userbase and traffic usage skyrocketing for a year or so, then duldrumming, then again picking up. The real support that TFN has is it's *continued* userbase that stays here for years.

    ...well... I'm not sure what that has to do with anything regarding bans, OR insulting other users... but whatever. ::shrugs::

    Syntax: I will refuse to have any discussion with you. As you are the one person I was banned for telling to stop doing the aforementioned activities. You fit into the category of people I was discussing above about maturity or intellectualism and how they have degraded it here.

    Oh well, I'll continue to respond to your points, then. I'll just let the other people reading this thread or replying to it see what I have to say, and they'll see the flaws in your argument that you're failing to respond to, and make their own judgment. You can either let me continue to intelligently hose down your argument, or you can drop the whole "I want an increase of maturity on this forum but I'm gonna act like a child on the playground and say 'I don't like you, so I'm not gonna talk to you because you got me in trouble once already because I didn't know how to be mature enough to interact with you without insulting you and getting mys
  17. Grand Admiral Thran Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 1999
    star 4
    I'd say the standards that the majority of reasonable people would view as correct. Certainly it's subjective, and there's no concrete definition.

    Then what stops you from applying that to a 'standard of maturity'?


    To uphold the rules of the JC.


    Well, you were close for what I wanted, being: "To help make the JC a better place by enforcing the rules".



    Before I say anything else, I fail to see why you constantly say you've been here for four years. You haven't been. You may have registered four years ago, but your time here has been inconsistent, and a simple look at your posting history shows that.


    Before you leap off and make assumptions, KW, I didn't post much at all until recently, I was mainly a heavy lurker. The Senate didn't exist a while ago, and thus my posting was mainly limited to Starwars Starbucks thread and a few various other ones that I cared enough to push the post button on. If you check back into my 99, early 00 history, you'll see I posted much more when the boards were still filled with intelligent discussion. You will also find I have only one user on my WUL list. There is a reason for it. Check his posts.

    Furthermore, to imply that I didn't even see these boards at all, because I simply didn't post high volume or in constistancy, is incorrect for you to say. For a few times, in various 3 or 6 month periods, I have not had the luxury of time to really post or look at the boards indepth. But that's a far cry from me simply 'not being here' or 'suddenly showing up with a 4 year old reg date'.

    It's mostly irrelevant, but it would be nice to not have to hear that you've been here for four years.

    Look, buddy, if you want it flat out, a couple of times I left to take a 'tolerance' period due to the administrations idiotic behavior so I could once again let my 'tolerance tank' flush so it could be filled again with BS. I've never been absent from these boards for more than six months at a time. And even then, I can't recall more than a year of total time I've been gone. You can still see the changes and who posts where when you spot check things.

    *Note: When I say leave, I don't mean I never visited the site at all, it just means I didn't take time to post or reply often.*

    rather than attempt to engage in changing hundreds or thousands of people's behavior.

    I can't help but detect a tone of insincerity, or perhaps that's me reading into it.

    However, you attempt to engage in changing hundreds or thousands of people's behavior daily. Why is it so wrong for me to attempt to sway those who do that?

    I'll spell it out for you: The JC is not going to return to the standards and times that you remember,

    Never claimed it would. There *were* things wrong with that time period too, you know, it's not like it was a golden age. Just, in retrospect, the grass was a bit greener back then.

    and the administration does not agree with many of your views as to what is and what is not acceptable (and how it should be instead).

    That's great. If we all agreed it'd be a boring place with nothing to discuss! However, it does not mean, again, that I must clam up and shuffle along my way because I am not a mindless fanboy. I'm sorry, KW, if that irks you, but you should know me by now.

    There may be a time in the future, after the movies have all been released and the DVDs are on the shelves of the majority of Star Wars fans that the JC (if it still exists) will finally come to be the way you want it.

    I don't want this place to be 'the way I want it'. If I did, I'd simply create my boards, Lord knows I have the knowledge and the stubborness to do so. But, it still does not mean I can't help tug it this way or that slightly. Pluralism, my dear friend, pluralism.

    I'll be doing my best to keep the JC a constructive and positive environment for as long as I'm here.

    And by asking you to help stamp out immaturity and refine the userbase a smidge is somehow going against that?


    [i
  18. RogueRoyalGuard Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2002
    star 2

    syntax, you deny that death is an important part of life? without death there would be a huge over population problem. Yet does that mean I support killing innocent people? NO! just because I think insulting people is an important part of life does not mean I intend to do it myself.

    "You know what you do? You inform the authorities (his parents, your parents), or you kick his ass"

    I did all three on several occasions

    "If you want to live next to him because he taunts you and makes you feel bad, there's something wrong. "

    I never felt bad. I felt triumphant that I could brush off his inane insults.

    "I don't see the corrolary between dealing with bullies, and showing support of your country...? "



    If you can't deal with a bully be he next door or on the JC, If you can't stand up for yourself, what makes you think you can stand up to an aggressive country or protect other people's rights?

    And by "bully" I don't mean some one who tells you to quit acting like a nerd on th JC.


    "Expressing the opinion isn't the issue, and I've made that quite clear. It's the opinion, itself, that you are trying to express that is the problem. Do you see the difference?"

    If you said "I think all germans are neo-nazis" And since I'm 3/4ths german, does that make you a bully? No, it just makes you wrong.
  19. Grand Admiral Thran Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 1999
    star 4
    And by "bully" I don't mean some one who tells you to quit acting like a nerd on th JC.


    LOL. Dude, look around you. Why do you think such stigma applies here to bullies and being overly PC/accepting and nice?

    Again, back to the demographic content. This is a SW fansite. If this place isn't filled with nerds and geeks (see spazes or dwebs as well), it just wouldn't be a SW fandom site. It just wouldn't.

    And yes, I realize I'm the freak minority here by not liking a great deal of things that the 'typical' male fan of SW would like.

    -GAT
  20. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Then what stops you from applying that to a 'standard of maturity'?

    Maturity isn't required to post here. Following the rules is about all that you need to do.

    I can't help but detect a tone of insincerity, or perhaps that's me reading into it.

    However, you attempt to engage in changing hundreds or thousands of people's behavior daily. Why is it so wrong for me to attempt to sway those who do that?


    I do nothing of the sort, nor do I have a desire to. People can behave the way they want to, so long as it doesn't break the rules we have here. In real life, people can behave the way they want so long as they're not breaking the law. It just may be that certain behaviors lead to more success than others. I'm not overly concerned with other.

    Never claimed it would. There *were* things wrong with that time period too, you know, it's not like it was a golden age. Just, in retrospect, the grass was a bit greener back then.

    Possibly. Perhaps it was. I was around occasionally back then too, although only to a small extent. As with most things over time, some good things lessen while other good things increase. It's a give and take.

    That's great. If we all agreed it'd be a boring place with nothing to discuss! However, it does not mean, again, that I must clam up and shuffle along my way because I am not a mindless fanboy. I'm sorry, KW, if that irks you, but you should know me by now.


    You can certainly do as you please (within reason), but my point is that you're not going to find much official agreement with your positions and opinions. More to the point, you're not going to find this place change to suit how you want this to be.

    You can speak as loudly as you want for as long as you want, but that doesn't mean change will follow suit.

    I don't want this place to be 'the way I want it'. If I did, I'd simply create my boards, Lord knows I have the knowledge and the stubborness to do so. But, it still does not mean I can't help tug it this way or that slightly. Pluralism, my dear friend, pluralism.


    Overall, I think there are a great many more people tugging the boards in directions you disagree with. Certainly there are some who agree with you, and I respect your desire to make a difference with your own actions. However, my overall point is that what you seek is not compatible with the current JC.

    And by asking you to help stamp out immaturity and refine the userbase a smidge is somehow going against that?


    Yes, it is. We're not here to moderate against immaturity unless it breaks rules. There's no rule against immaturity, and we're not here for a social engineering project. The doors are open to everyone and the current state of the JC is what has come of it.

    If if's and buts were candy and nuts then we'd all be in Christmas. Sorry, I don't know where you grew up, but here on planet earth, not everyone has the same 'reasoning methods' or 'cognitive logistics' as everyone else. Their raising has a great deal to do with it. So thus, you must break down their former thought on a subject or long held belief before you can interject a new one.


    All this is possible without a single insult being used. I suggest you read up on Vertical's posts here, especially in recent times. It would serve as a good model of what I'm speaking of.

    And here we go again, mudding up the issue. Yes, we know you want this place a huggy-touchy-feely place where we can be free to be unique and not feel scorn for saying whatever idiotic thing flies out of our mouths...


    I want the JC to be a constructive environment to discuss Star Wars and various other subjects. It doesn't need to be "touchy feely" to achieve that, or any other level of high or low intelligence.

    You know, this board is slowly turning me more and more conservative. Because quite frankly, the blatent lack of societial restraint on actions and words is just astounding. "Sue McDonalds because it makes me fat" "Let's go immitate jackass!" "I
  21. Syntax Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 5
    just because I think insulting people is an important part of life does not mean I intend to do it myself.

    I get the feeling that people aren't understanding your point, then. Why allow insulting to occur? What do you think it contributes?

    I did all three on several occasions

    ...did you resort to physical action?
    In the words of Max Payne, when you push someone far enough, they start to push back.

    I never felt bad. I felt triumphant that I could brush off his inane insults.

    ...and he looked foolish for trying to insult you, right?
    Well, how would you look if you decided to insult people? You'd be just as bad as the bully.

    If you can't deal with a bully be he next door or on the JC, If you can't stand up for yourself, what makes you think you can stand up to an aggressive country or protect other people's rights?

    Very simply - you resort to physical force. As stated, you think you could get away with insults because you have no threat of physical force against you.
    As for "standing up for yourself", no offense or anything but I have problems taking you seriously when you mention that, given your "I wouldn't have backed down so easily if I knew I had backup" comment. You shouldn't have needed "backup" to express your opinion, and if you supported it that strongly, you shouldn't have "backed down". But that's just my opinion.

    That's great. If we all agreed it'd be a boring place with nothing to discuss! However, it does not mean, again, that I must clam up and shuffle along my way because I am not a mindless fanboy.

    We don't have to agree on everything. In fact, we never will. However, allowing random insults and trolling would DECREASE the quality of this forum. There are no doubts there.

    Sorry, I don't know where you grew up, but here on planet earth, not everyone has the same 'reasoning methods' or 'cognitive logistics' as everyone else.

    ...and I don't know where you're residing on Earth, but everywhere I've been, it's common human practice to treat people with some semblance of decency and respect. Those who don't do not do well in life.

    Civilized discussion wins much more respect from the people you're debating and those who are observing than debating that involves insults.

    And here we go again, mudding up the issue. Yes, we know you want this place a huggy-touchy-feely place where we can be free to be unique and not feel scorn for saying whatever idiotic thing flies out of our mouths...


    ...and there you go, ignoring the point.
    I'll re-state the point for you: Insulting people reflects poorly on your character, and says volumes about your intelligence and self-control (or apparent lack thereof) because it shows that you don't know how to interact with others without getting annoyed (over an Internet messageboard, no less!) and letting emotions take over and resorting to personal assaults (aimed at people you've never seen in real life, no less!).

    Because quite frankly, the blatent lack of societial restraint on actions and words is just astounding.

    1. How does that work? The Forum Officials restrain people from acting like jerks towards one another, and allow people to enjoy themselves without fear of verbal assault. I'm not seeing the "lack of restraint". ?[face_plain]
    2. You want MORE restraint, apparently, but you want to achieve that by tolerating LESS restraint by letting people say and do whatever they want. Isn't that a tad bit contradictory?

    And yes, I realize I'm the freak minority here by not liking a great deal of things that the 'typical' male fan of SW would like.

    Could you perhaps elaborate on that? It seems like an inappropriately-applied stereotype to me, because I know I don't like a lot of the things that the "typical male fan of SW" likes, too.
  22. Grand Admiral Thran Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 1999
    star 4
    Maturity isn't required to post here. Following the rules is about all that you need to do.

    Yes and a general rule or guideline can be put in that requests users to post with a sense of basic maturity.


    I do nothing of the sort, nor do I have a desire to.

    Everytime you issue a ban or a warning, you attempt to curb that user's behavior to fall into line with the ToS. Whether you realize it or not, is irrelevant.


    I was around occasionally back then too,

    I find it a bit humorous we talk as if it was 50 years ago, and we're all old people sitting around in a retirement house...

    As with most things over time, some good things lessen while other good things increase. It's a give and take.

    Uh, just because something decreases, doesn't mean something else increases. I don't see much here that has 'increased' (besides overall # of forums and users) for what has 'decreased' here.


    but my point is that you're not going to find much official agreement with your positions and opinions.

    I don't need offical agreement. Just because someone doesn't leap to do what you suggest, doesn't mean they don't keep it in the back of their mind when going forward on the new path.

    Instead of going totally this way, you might subconsciously start leaning a bit this way and the path is then (still going that way) but not as far now.

    More to the point, you're not going to find this place change to suit how you want this to be.

    Hey, if I demanded I wanted this place to be what I wanted, then I'd state that. I'm not demanding that. I am only raising concern.

    You can speak as loudly as you want for as long as you want, but that doesn't mean change will follow suit.

    People don't often hear who is the most reasonable or right, but he who shouts the loudest. ;)


    Overall, I think there are a great many more people tugging the boards in directions you disagree with.

    Of course, but as with any community or society, by keeping those who are in the minority in mind, it prevents rampant, over direction in the path of the way those who are in the majority wanting it. 'too much of a good thing is bad' type of senario.

    However, my overall point is that what you seek is not compatible with the current JC.

    The path to salvation is a long, difficult, and ardent one, my friend. ;) If the concerns I raise now only slightly nudge the JC over the span of 5 years from now, wasn't it worth it?


    There's no rule against immaturity, and we're not here for a social engineering project.

    By requesting some small sliver of maturity in the ToS, I fail to see how that's a social or behaviorial engineering project.

    The doors are open to everyone and the current state of the JC is what has come of it.

    The S.S. JC is running over a coral reef. Just because we're here, it doesn't mean we need to keep going gung-ho forward into more 'coral'.


    I suggest you read up on Vertical's posts here, especially in recent times. It would serve as a good model of what I'm speaking of.

    I think we're talking about different things.

    1) I'm speaking of 'insults' as in when someone posts something inane, and another user who says "That was stupid of you to post that. Why would you do something like that?"

    And 2) "The world is flat" "That view is completely unfounded and ignorant."

    Both are 'insults'. We can water down the scale even more, like you recently did to me with telling another user I found him unpleasent. That judgement call was wrong in my opinion. You've dillusioned much of the 'more intellegent, contributing members' here, and caused a sincere amount of jadedness among the 'oldbies' here.

    The failed policies and governing attempts the JC has committed in the past, with refusal to change, has caused many, many offshoot boards to start, drawing some userbase away.

    Please, at least have SOME pretenses that you cater to the needs/wants of the fanbase.


    I want the JC to be a constructive env
  23. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "You're shifting into a grey area now, be careful. What do you deem as an insult? A blatent name calling? Or the more insidious undermining of crediblity and character? Ah. Look at politics. The master science for answers."

    "Actually, no, I'm for tightening the reigns on immature, idiotic posting."

    "By whose standards is that for flaming, or bating? Or anything else 'forbidden' on these boards, KW? Careful, slipping into realitivism."


    Tell you what, rather than busting the Mod's chops, how about you explain your "non-subjective" rules about "tightening the reigns" and eliminating "idiotic posting". Let's see exactly how you would deal with all the "real-life" posts that come around. There's really no point to whin...complaining about the acts of the Mods, if you don't have a thorough and reasonable alternative. How many insults will be allowed before a person is banned? Are you going to have a set number (renewable each month), or are you going to "subjectively" evaluate each and every poster's posting history? How are you going to ensure that all the other Mods apply these standards equally - or did you think you were going to be the only "Supermod", whom everyone is answerable to?

    Make sure your "model" doesn't have any "grey areas", okay? We don't want anything "slipping by" like the old ways, right? That would just be defeating the whole purpose.

    Good luck.

    On a personal note, being a Fifth-grade teacher, I can't help but notice how kids use insults as a way of dismissing or ridiculing someone as opposed to actually confronting or dealing with a problem. The kids who tend to tease the most are the ones who think they can get away with it because they are untouchable in some way (they are bigger/faster/more popular than the people they tease.) Of course, they are usually the first to complain when someone insults them as well. Also, the one thing a bully hates the most is a bigger bully - which might explain some of the ambivalence held against Mods. Bullies don't like someone else telling them what to do, yet they alway seem to think they can do a better job of telling everyone else what to do.

    I wouldn't be surprised if everyone here has seen the same thing in some form or another, and I'm not just referring to this thread.

    "syntax, you deny that death is an important part of life? without death there would be a huge over population problem. Yet does that mean I support killing innocent people? NO! just because I think insulting people is an important part of life does not mean I intend to do it myself."

    Christ, man. Not even the same level. No one is going to live and die by these posts. Get a real comparison.

    Insults may be unavoidable, but that's only because some people just don't know any better. This thread has made that abundantly, though obviously not entirely, clear.

    "And by "bully" I don't mean some one who tells you to quit acting like a nerd on th JC."

    Of course not, lest you fall under your own definition.

    Nonetheless, a rose is a rose....
  24. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Yes and a general rule or guideline can be put in that requests users to post with a sense of basic maturity

    Not going to happen, nor should it.

    Everytime you issue a ban or a warning, you attempt to curb that user's behavior to fall into line with the ToS. Whether you realize it or not, is irrelevant.


    Behavior simply needs to fall within the bounds of acceptable. We don't require people to be mature or intelligent to post here.

    I don't need offical agreement. Just because someone doesn't leap to do what you suggest, doesn't mean they don't keep it in the back of their mind when going forward on the new path.


    Yes, you do need official agreement in order to procure a change to the Terms of Service. That agreement is not forthcoming.

    The path to salvation is a long, difficult, and ardent one, my friend. If the concerns I raise now only slightly nudge the JC over the span of 5 years from now, wasn't it worth it?


    The path you want the JC to be on is anything but salvation. The concerns you raise have been raised before, and change in the opposite direction has continued unabated (for better or worse).

    By requesting some small sliver of maturity in the ToS, I fail to see how that's a social or behaviorial engineering project.


    You would be forcing certain people to leave this place, along with forcing people to conform to a specific standard of "maturity."

    The S.S. JC is running over a coral reef. Just because we're here, it doesn't mean we need to keep going gung-ho forward into more 'coral'

    In many people's eyes, the JC is doing very well, and some have no wish to see things change in the manner you seek.

    Yes, of course, but again, if I advocate change in my government, why can't I advocate change on a simple message board? A doesn't connect to B here.


    Because the changes are unlikely to happen. You cannot reasonably expect to see hundreds of people change their behavior to suit your views, or have a requirement placed for that kind of behavior here.

    You already do it though! That's WHY we have a ToS. To cause people to 'behave in the rules' for the sake of order and social structure. All I'm suggestion is tightening the reigns on it a tad bit to produce a higher level of quality for the users of TFN.


    The Terms of Service ensures that anyone can post here as long as they follow the rules that are set down. There will be no tightening of any reigns to produce a "higher level of quality" that may meet with agreement on your part, and that of a few others, but disagreement in the eyes of many others (probably many more).

    What you seek is in the past.

    Again, I can't help feel that you may believe what I consider to be mature to be not exactly what mature is, according to you, and somehow I am skewed off.


    Your perception is accurate. I'd say much of what you consider to be mature is significantly different than what the majority of reasonable and intelligent people consider to be mature, based on what I've seen here.
  25. Syntax Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 5
    Not at all. First you have to ease up on the banning of anyone who doesn't post something touchy-feely-sympathy-laden-happy-cherub-style when it in context (again, not trolling or blatent flaming, but telling someone to knock it off before a moderator will nail them or the like, one of the best ways to govern a board is to let the people balance it out only stepping in to cease fights or the like, when you turn this place into the pre-skool place that it has become, you get into a whole slew of problems, micromangement doesn't work.). Then when a reasonable atmosphere of 'user maturity' has been attained, you make it policy and enforce it at that point. I'm not advocating the eternal freedom of 'flaming' or anything of the sort.

    ...or, conversely, you could let the Administration do their job and regulate such things. As stated before, it is not your place to do so, and if you think it is your place, you'll get banned.

    But, if the entire user base grows a 'thicker skin' and 'grows up' then there won't be any need for those people who flamed the 'immature ones' to do so anymore. Social regulation, rather than by a governing hand, is a common element in society.

    1. That's called "anarchy".
    2. Optionally, you COULD choose to treat people with respect, no? Is there any reason in particular that you don't want to do this?

    Who says I grouped you into it?

    You didn't group me into it, and I never said you did.

    If you can't see that, then I suggest you take a politics class at your local college/university to fill up some social science credit. American Politics 110 and Introduction to political science 100 are good places to start. Behavorial science or sociology courses are good too.

    If I can't see "that". What is "that"? Seriously, I don't see your point, aside from that being a thinly-veiled insult implying there's something you said that I didn't understand. I understood it fully, but the way your post read, it seemed to say "there's lots of geeks and nerds on this forum simply because it's Star Wars... but I'm not one of those geeks or nerds, because I don't like the same things [note the ambiguity] that those other users [note the ambiguity again] like". Do you see how your post could be taken that way? That's called "the pot calling the kettle black". You're still not better than anyone else here - you're still posting on this Star Wars messageboard, so if you're going to think that other people are "geeks" and "nerds", well... best take a little responsibility and own up to the titles yourself. You don't think you're a geek or nerd (or at least that's the message you seem to be conveying in your last two posts)? You're debating messageboard policies on a Star Wars messageboard on the Internet with people you've never met.
    Think about that for a moment.
    And I've taken social/political classes; we've discussed stereotypes and their usage, and their occasional appropriateness.

    I can't help but notice how kids use insults as a way of dismissing or ridiculing someone as opposed to actually confronting or dealing with a problem.

    Exactly correct. That is the epitome of how insults are useless in any and all situations.

    "And by "bully" I don't mean some one who tells you to quit acting like a nerd on th JC."

    Of course not, lest you fall under your own definition.

    Nonetheless, a rose is a rose....


    LOL! [face_laugh]

    Well, I must be off-- I've got a part to attend, and a novelization to write.
Moderators: JoinTheSchwarz, LAJ_FETT, Ramza
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.