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Lit Barriss Offee

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Kablob, Sep 21, 2014.

  1. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Rogue Planet portrayed Tarkin as explicitly spying on the Jedi for Sidious/Palpatine -- he's in on the anti-Jedi agenda.
     
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  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    That gives him an extra reason to be so ruthless in the Season 5 arc.
     
  3. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Cold blood? Maybe if she'd done it a few years earlier, but the Jedi have turned the Temple into a military facility. In war, it's a legitimate target, and the JEDI made it that.
     
  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Right. The Jedi are the ones who declared war. Palpatine and the Senate had nothing to do with it.

    My best hope for the Disney takeover is that it will relegate all semblance of "the Jedi deserved to be blown up/Order 66'ed" back to the Traviss extreme it once was.
     
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  5. Darth_Garak

    Darth_Garak Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2005
    Same here but I'm not holding my breath. The galaxy supporting the Jedi and realizing they aren't at fault can't create "drama" - or something.
     
  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I expect the galaxy to buy into Imperial propaganda for awhile. But I expect Imperial propaganda to be depicted as just that: propaganda. Not a "correct" depiction of the Jedi.
     
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  7. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    As much as I loathe a lot of Traviss' work, I still think she was a valuable part of Star Wars precisely BECAUSE of her crazy anti-Jedi bias. That's how much of the galaxy is supposed to feel about the Jedi by the time of the Clone Wars/early Empire years. The fact that many of her heroes aren't wild about the Empire either makes it even more effective - it shows just how broad the rejection of the old system is, even among people who don't like the new one either. (And I think that's how a lot of political changes happen in real life - new orders rise to power, not just because a lot of people support them, but because no one has a credible alternative).

    So, in that sense, I think it's kind of cool to have one of the writers doing things from that point of view. I don't like her arguments, but I'm not supposed to, the way I look at it.
     
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  8. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Early on, Traviss agreed with "Jedi shouldn't have families" - it was only around the time of No Prisoners that she started depicting Jedi With Families sympathetically.

    Inferno round-robin:

    Random House: "The Jedi of Yoda's day believed that romantic and family relationships between Jedi could only lead to disaster. Hasn't that view been pretty well borne out by the history of Darth Vader and his children and grandchildren?"
    Aaron Allston: "I think the Republic-era belief that attachment leads to disaster is on-target, but I hope we're going to show that not all love matches constitute that form of attachment. My belief is that any number of Jedi could marry and have kids without invoking tragedy. I think part of the problem is that the Skywalker family is about as important as, and about as lucky as, the house of Atreus from Greek mythology. That is to say, very important ... but not very lucky."
    Karen Traviss: "No, I'm inclined to think Yoda got it right. Jedi shouldn't be allowed to have families. These people are superweapons, and once they lose the ability to detachhowever much moral decline that so-called detachment got them into in the late Republicthen their family feuds will end up dragging in the whole galaxy. The Legacy of the Force saga is basically a family spat involving an ex or two that creates galactic war. Do they see the irony? I don't know. But like all people with vast power and a sense of dynastic entitlement, they take their eye off the ball andwhatever they think they are doingmake decisions based on what's good for the people they love, not the majority. They're only human. Trouble is, their powers and their influence aren't ..."
    Troy Denning: "Let's not forget that a lot of good came from Anakin Skywalker's line: Luke, Leia, Anakin Solo, Jaina ... We'll have to see about Ben, but even Jacen was responsible for ending the Yuuzhan Vong war."

    Ultimately, most of her dislike of the Jedi can be traced back to their willingness to use the clone army, in AOTC:

    Star Wars on Trial:

    "Let me get this clear," I said. "Somebody creates a secret clone army. Then they manuever the Jedi into using them to fight the Separatists."
    "That's right," said Ryan.
    "So...." My journalist brain was whirring. I had no preconceived happy notions about Jedi. I was new in town. "This is a slave army. They're bred to age at double the rate and die young. They have no choice. And the Jedi just take them and use them as cannon fodder? No questions asked? No big moral debate?"
    "You got it," said Ryan.
    I was outraged. "And these are the good guys?"
    That was the exact moment when Star Wars moved from being a nice little earner into something I really, really wanted to write.
     
  9. Darth_Garak

    Darth_Garak Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2005
    The morality of using the clone army is something I'm fine with having explored in stories (let Stover run with it). Sadly we didn't get an exploration, we got sanctimonious preaching.
     
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  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Miller at least showed Yoda thinking about it after Geonosis:

    Remembering the Kaminoan cloning facility, its bright white sterility, its impersonal care for the creatures it created so efficiently, so remarkably, so utterly without compunction, he repressed a shudder.
    Deep questions of morality and ethics do these clones raise. But answers, are there? Know that I do not. Override ethics our desperate need for them might.
     
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  11. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I was fine with Miller having Yoda think about it and I imagine I would be fine with a Stover exploration.

    The "sanctimonious preaching" is what pisses me off, along with the diminishing the tragedy and horror of Order 66 by insinuating or outright stating that the Jedi deserved it contributed to it.
     
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  12. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    There's Star Wars On Trial - but even Stover's contributions to that are not exactly kind -

    "Chosen One was Chosen to destroy the Sith - and the Jedi - leaving Luke and Leia as A New Hope for the future."
     
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Well...never mind on Stover then.
     
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The relevant parts:

    What I find so astonishing, in fact, in Opposing Counsel's indictment is that he seems to believe that the Saga endorses rule by a secretive unelected eliteand then spends much of his argument showing how the Saga explicitly rejects that very concept.
    Yes, Yoda is secretive, and often unhelpful. The Jedi themselves—SURPRISE!—aren't exactly good guys. Perhaps Opposing Counsel never noticed. Let me enlighten him, and the Court.
    If you take a close look at the Jedi Order, you find that—in Mr. Lucas's own words—they're a cross between the Texas Rangers and the Mafia. They are a vast organisation of superheroes—real superheroes, with powers right out of Marvel or DC Comics—who wield near-absolute power in secret, without accountability to anyone but themselves and the Office of the Supreme Chancellor. They are the Justice League with interplanetary Licences to Kill.
    And guess what?
    The Chosen One is chosen to destroy them.
    Does Opposing Counsel expect the Court to believe this is an accident?
    Everything Opposing Counsel has to say about Yoda actually undermines his own case!
    If Mr. Lucas were truly advocating rule by a benevolent despot, wouldn't Yoda have turned out to be always right? Wouldn't Luke's rebellion against him have become a disaster, from which Yoda would have to rescue him, as a father rescues an errant child?
    In fact, at every turn in the Saga, when a Figure of Authority speaks out and gives strict orders ... they're wrong.
    Except when that order is to trust in the Force.
    In other words: trust the voice of the life within you. Trust yourself. Trust love, Trust faith.
    Don't trust people who claim they know what's best for you.
    ...
    Anakin Skywalker—Darth Vader—fulfills a distinct mythic role in the Saga: the Scourge of God. When the world (society, whatever) has become so corrupt only destruction can answer, it is the Scourge of God—customarily a tragic character (q.v. The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark)—who must carry out that destruction, and in the end by destroyed by his own violence. It's not good vs. evil or black vs. white: Anakin/Vader is in fact wiping out that old Manichaean duality that Opposing Counsel so wistfully pines for. Anakin's (and Vader's) destiny is to bring balance to the Force, remember? To do this, he destroys both the Jedi and the Sith— and, necessarily, himself—and leaves Luke with clean hands and a clear conscience, untainted by the corruption of the past, to be half of, ahem, A New Hope for a better future.
    The other half?
    His twin sister, just as gifted with Force potential, but not turning toward ascetic contemplation as a Jedi. She's turning instead toward full engagement with the world: marriage, and a family and eventual participation in the government of the New Republic (in later years as its Head of State, in fact).

    Later:

    Brin:
    One of my favourite SW characters, Qui-Gon Jinn, represents everything worthy about the Jedi. He serves the Republic - and a trillion citizens - putting them before Yoda. Generous and honest, he wants a different Jedi path, one worth saving.
    ...
    Still, Mr Stover's explication? The Chosen One is ordained to help annihilate the Jedi Order, every earnest apprentice and billions of bystanders, while paving the way for a despicable tyranny. All so Luke and Leia can lead a cleansed galaxy from the rubble with a clear slate.
    Um, what kind of political-moral-ethical lesson is that? "We must burn the village in order to save it?" Might the people of Alderaan and Coruscant prefer to have a voice in this slate-clearing? Must Qui-Gon's sweeter version of Jedi-ness - and those trillions of citizens - suffer because of Yoda's "imbalance"?
    Isn't all this "balance" talk just a rationalization for light-dark demigod archetypes to run amok?

    Stover:
    No.
    It's not "just a rationalization." It's the looming shadow of a tragedy. It's the GFFA equivalent of the Delphic oracle prophesying that Oedipus would kill his father and marry his mother.
    The operative word here is tragedy.
    Yes, bad things happen to innocent people. The flaws of folk of good will are struck by the hammer of fate, and everyone suffers. That's what happens in tragedy.
    ...
    Must everyone suffer? Maybe not. Things could have turned out differently. If Yoda had been younger and more flexible. If Obi-Wan had been less tolerant of Anakin's flaws. If Anakin had been more honest with himself and with others. If Qui-Gon Jinn (Opposing Counsel's favourite character) had been less arrogantly insistent - against all advice, all reason, and 25,000 years of tradition - that Anakin Skywalker must be taken from his mother and trained as a Jedi....
    These characters are not paragons of perfection. They are flawed, and their mistakes have devastating consequences.
    Everyone suffers.
    That's how it went. That's how it goes. That's not interpretation, that's the historical record, as presented by the films.
    "Political-moral-ethical lessons" are where you find them.
     
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  15. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    I was shocked by Barriss' betrayal. But I understood her reasons once she laid it out. It wasn't unprecedented for Jedi to lose their way and become corrupted like that. A lot of what she was saying was correct when she addressed the court and after Anakin captured her. But her solution was twisted and wrong, obviously. You could also tell by that last look she gave Ahsoka that she regretted what she had done to her, or at least was afraid of some type of reprisal. I think a novel or short story about her would be warranted. Stover could handle it, but so could someone like Luceno. I would like to know more about how she turned out that way.
     
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  16. Taalcon

    Taalcon Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 12, 1998
    I'm actually reading 'Approaching Storm' right now, the introduction to Barriss and Luminara pre-AOTC. Quite enjoying it. I have no doubt there's more planned or established in-house with her story. I'm curious to see in what medium it is presented to the public.
     
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  17. Taalcon

    Taalcon Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 12, 1998
    Just came across this in Approaching Storm, from Anakin ' POV in reference to Barriss:
    The relationship between Anakin amd Barriss in this novel makes the end of TCW more heartbreaking. The events of this book I think are finding their way into my headcanon.
     
  18. Taalcon

    Taalcon Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 12, 1998
    (Sorry for multi post, not letting me edit)

    And then the kicker, from Barriss:
    Poor Barriss has to see Anakin get knighted and get a padawan, and after fighting and leading for years in the Wars, she's still not knighted. No wonder she got bitter against the Jedi.

    Do wish we could see some more of her and Luminara as we approach the tipping point, TCW era.
     
  19. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Lets put it this way, if a Jedi lead army was attacking my planet (which happened to be part of the Confederacy) blowing up my neighborhood and having their Walkers accidentally crush my dog and blow up my kid's school, they likely wouldn't be on my list of favorite people.

    In my opinion the story in Traviss's novels is largely about people getting sucked in by the propaganda, who only to realize after Order 66 that they have all been played by Palpatine - the main characters included. Unfortunately the main cast can't come to that realization without Order 66 taking place. Which is why in the end the main characters end up supporting the Jedi, helping them escape the Empire - despite their sizable differences in opinion and ideology.

    That sums it up really well. It is pretty easy to realize the characters in those novels are not people who are supposed to be pro Jedi, and the couple Jedi who they do entice to leave are really young, and really affected by both their relationships and the horrors of the war. We are never suppose to believe the Jedi are the bad guys, even if we don't approve of all of their methods and decisions.
     
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  20. GenOochy

    GenOochy Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2003
    **thread resurrection**

    Forgive me, I'm WAY behind the times with this one. I came across this thread because it addresses a plot point that I have discussed multiple times in recent months and wanted to hear from the rest of the SW:CW hive mind.

    I only finished Clone Wars in the last twelve months or so (I forget exactly when, believe it was last fall) and the Barriss/Temple Bombing plot arc was one that I was pretty unhappy with, but for a reason I didn't see addressed here before (but I have seen a couple other places).

    So, besides the many other excellent points addressed by others here (four years ago :p), there was one point that struck a nerve with me concerning the writer's decision to take Barriss Offee and turn her into a terrorist. I was honestly left completely flabbergasted as to who at Disney thought this was a good idea.

    As far back as ATOC, I recall there being discussions on whether or not Barriss Offee's character, and Mirianlans in general, were intentionally Muslim-coded. If so, this is most likely based off of Lucas's habit of drawing from various religions and cultures around the world when designing characters, vice any intentional decision of representation. I seem to recall a similar discussion about cultural coding of Barriss and Luminara in their portrayal in the MedStar series.

    But then we have the Clone Wars series where Barriss Offee becomes a fairly significant minor character and a close friend to one of the protagonist of the show; and then someone in the writing department decides that the best way to bring this character's arc to an end is have her radicalize against the war and bomb the Jedi temple in the name of opposing the injustice and oppression of the Republic. And it wasn't 'throwing a monkey wrench' attempt to impede the gears of war (which would have been completely acceptable in my opinion); it was cold blooded (forcing a woman to turn her otherwise friendly husband into a living bomb, then murdering said woman before she could talk, and framing her best friend for that murder?). There would have been plenty of ways to take this arc that wouldn't have been so egregious, and yet they did.

    Y I K E S. Was this one thought through at all? Besides being a very unfair end of a fascinating character, the optics of this are frankly terrible. Did no one on the writing staff consider this when it was proposed, and am I the only one who had this thought as they watched it?
     
  21. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    One thing, it wasn't anyone at Disney, this arc was written and produced before the Disney sale.

    As for the Muslim connection, it's not something ever established in the show itself, so I can see why it was overlooked. Barriss hadn't been set-up as some kind of Islamic archetype in TCW. Her motivations for the bombing aren't religious, but are an ethical decision, to protest the war.
     
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  22. jamminjedi23

    jamminjedi23 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2015
    Yeah TCW was bulldozing stuff from the EU throughout the entire run of the series. THe Barriss deal was only the last (and one of the more major) examples of this. There were a couple other people that TCW killed off in completely different ways and at different times than the EU did. Lucas allowed the EU to tell stories but he didn't really respect it that much. He treated the EU very similarly to how canon treats legends now with the only acception being that he never officially announced that the EU was non canon.
     
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  23. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2005
    But that is completely tangential to @GenOochy 's point. Even completely disregarding the EU, it was lousy for the character and terrible optics for the franchise.
     
  24. jamminjedi23

    jamminjedi23 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2015
    Yes but there wasn't anything that said those two characters were supposed to represent Muslims. They just liked to give characters fancy outfits.

    You could just as easily say that Barriss was supposed to represent the wicked witch of the west.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  25. jSarek

    jSarek VIP star 4 VIP

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Like GenOochy said,
    People were seeing the Mirialans that way long before the EU got its hands on them.