Basher Sanctuary Episode 4: A New Forum

Discussion in 'Star Wars Community' started by Darth-Stryphe, Apr 14, 2004.

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  1. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Good riddance, Burtt. Congratulations for being perhaps the single person (after Lucas) most responsible for ruining the prequels and vandalizing the OT. Don't let the door hit you on the *** on your way out.

    :mad:
  2. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    It's a shame, because the guy really played a key role in making the original trilogy so memorable all those years ago. I always admired the hell out of his sound design work on those original three films, and I can honestly say that THOSE movies would have been somewhat less than what they were without Burtt's sound effects work.

    But yeah, he's just gone way past his prime as far as that goes, and between his insistence on making virtually every droid and alien in the PT sound like a reject from a Chip & Dale cartoon and his absolutely inappropriate snubbing of John Williams and his film scores in his quest to turn his sound effects up as loud as possible, I think he has done more harm than good in a lot of cases over the past decade.

    It's too bad. I don't hate the guy or anything, I'm just disappointed that he's gone downhill the way he has.
  3. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    I can't believe some of you think that ROTS is the worst SW film!! ROTS was made with the Basher in mind!! This is OUR film and some of you people still don't like it?

    Consider:

    - Non-stop action
    - Excellent Plot
    - No Jar Jar
    - Spectacular effects

    Like I said before, every single ROTS basher is now an enemy of SW!! :p
  4. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    TJ, I happened to like ROTS for the most part, but I can certainly see why some folks might not have dug it. I mean, it had the same pacing problems as the others, it had the same CGI clutter problems as the others, it had the same Ben Burtt related problems as the others, and it had a lot of the same dialogue problems as the others. Right there is probably enough for some people to not be crazy about it, and if they didn't happen to buy the story Lucas was telling (which you and I and others luckily did, at least more or less) then it's a cinch that they'd not be crazy about ROTS.

    Let's not harangue people for not liking ROTS, especially here in the Sanctuary, eh? ;)
  5. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    Saw it yesterday with my oldest of friends.

    Hmmm... I didn't mind huge chunks of it, like other chunks and disliked only small moments.

    But still, I felt empty as I sat there watching all the credits roll by, trying to collect my thoughts.



    Verdict in a nutshell?

    Better than TPM and AOTC. Still not brilliant. A bit vacuous at times, boring at others.

    Most of my problems are related to Mace Windy, Yoda and to a lesser extent Anakin, and the ties to the OT.



    EDIT - Ben Burtt has left LFL? Thank the maker! He quite possibly ruins ROTS with his stuff, and I've never quite forgiven him for adding in that ridiculous 'force rumble'...
  6. HanSolo29 Manager Emeritus + Official Star Wars Artist

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 6
    ROTS was made with the Basher in mind!!

    I agree completely. I loved the film. In fact, I'm off to see it for the second time in about 2 hours - I can't wait! :D

    As for Ben Burtt leaving Lucasfilm - that's a bit of a shock. After all the years he's been with him, I didn't think it would come to this. Oh well, it is true that his work has been less than great lately, so I guess it's a good thing.
  7. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    If SW is nothing more that a dead piece of pop-culture history to you which faded away before you were even born, and nothing more, then why bother with anything SW, including this thread?

    Darth-Stryphe, please feel free to quote ANY post I have EVER made in which I say that I think that SW is a dead piece of pop-culture history. No, seriously, go ahead.

    You have obviously had quite an emotional reaction to seeing this last SW film. But don't try and pull that kind of straw man nonsense again please. I made my point perfectly clear. You even quoted the relevant part in your post. But maybe I can illustrate it further. You said:

    "The films are SW. Everything else (TV shows included) is... just something else."

    replace "films" with "OT" and that might give you a clearer idea as to how I feel.


    Even if you didn't like the PT, the fact that it is over I would think would mean something more than "thank goodness!"

    ...why? The PT sucks.

    If you really wanted it to end that bad, you could walk away at anytime. I did that with EU.

    It's funny to see a variant on the "if you don't like the prequels why do you come here?" question coming from you, but I'll answer it anyway. I've never said anything about being eager for the PT to end. Never. Said. That. The reason I come here is simple; there are a lot of really cool people who post here. I enjoy reading their stuff. I enjoy occasionally adding my own thoughts to the mix. I post because it is FUN.
  8. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Patrick Russell:

    I mean, it had the same pacing problems as the others, it had the same CGI clutter problems as the others, it had the same Ben Burtt related problems as the others, and it had a lot of the same dialogue problems as the others.

    I thought the pacing was much faster, the CGI was appropriate for the scenes and the dialogue was much like the rest of the saga.


    Let's not harangue people for not liking ROTS, especially here in the Sanctuary, eh?

    I'm not haranguing. I'm only expressing disbelief at my fellow Bashers who don't love the film as much as we do. :)
  9. Loco_for_Lucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Only the Sith deal with absolutes, my friend. :p
  10. Tachikoma-Kun Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2005
    star 3
    I actually liked Ben Burtts work a lot in the prequels. I loved the swoopbike sounds in Menace and those seismic charges in AOTC. I could do without those comicbook robots but overall, I think Burtts sounds were unique and intresting. He did a lot better job than the artdepartment who designed the ships. I think the prequels were aesthetically quite a dissapointment. In the OT the ships were militaristic and instantly regognicable but in the PT the ships look like they've could've been from any other scifi show. The ships looked dull and boring. But the sounds were allways intresting. On the other hand I agree that Burtt butchered Williams score but still part of me feels sad for him leaving. Flame away! :D

  11. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "I thought the pacing was much faster, the CGI was appropriate for the scenes and the dialogue was much like the rest of the saga.'


    Well, IMHO there's a lot more to good pacing than simply making the whole thing go faster. It's the rhythm of the thing that really counts, and too often in ROTS I feel the same lack of rhythm that I've felt in the last two films and, to a certain extent, in ROTJ. Yes, ROTS was very fast-paced, and there were times when I wished it would slow down and chew its food a little better. It doesn't always have to be nothing but 16th-of-a-second quick-cuts, and to be honest I don't particularly like the whole quick-cut thing all that much to begin with.

    The OT films, particularly the first two, were VERY well-paced, both overall and within scenes. In a saber fight, you got some nice long shots so that you could follow the moves of the combatants. You'd get these great shots in space battles where you'd get a nice easy pan while the ships themselves did all the swooping, and you'd get these great shots where a ship or a group of ships would be way off in the distance, and then they'd swing in and curve past the camera. Back then, not everything had to look like a video game, and it was a lot easier to savor great shots and images. Now, too often, it's just this rapid-fire series of quick cuts with no grace, no rhythm, and little more than an overload of "kewl".

    ROTS with the pacing of ANH or ESB would have been absolutely phenomenal. I can live with what we got, but it's definitely not up to the level it could have been, IMHO.
  12. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    Hudnall: This was probably my least favorite of JW's scores, but it's not a bad one. I really liked the Battle of the Heroes theme. Maybe the sound was mixed poorly (is it a theater thing or a flaw in the print of the movie?) so maybe I couldn't hear every note as clearly as I should've.

    Lurking Around: "Lastly, I just want to say: I hate Padme! This character is jsut...gaaarg, words fail me! I can't say anymore, just that after evaluating all three PT movies, I've come to the conclusion that Padme is the character I hate most, even more than Jar Jar!"

    I agree. I really hate her character, the same with Mace. They could've been great characters but they don't do anything in these movies. They are like poor pawns of a plot. They show up, take their bow, and leave and you forget about them until the next scene. They always sound like they are reciting a script and never do they sound like they are forming real thoughts and words from a thinking mind. I always look at Alec Guiness and the marvelous job he did with Obi Wan. Made him a real character. When I was watching ROTS I kept thinking, they need to take some notes form this man. When he in his hovel in ANH, telling Luke the campfire story of Darth Vader, he takes his time and plays with the words like a good actor should do. He tugs his beard, sits back and muses, sighs and curls his lips in the most subtle way. That is an actor really doing their job, where they bring their love of art and craft and make any character one we can feel for.

    I think that is a duty of most actors, for any role, whether it is a quaint British drama or an action movie. Do something interesting with your dialogue that is given to you. (Although it helps to have good dialgoue to work with) An actor likens his given dialogue as clay that must be molded, or tools that must be used to build something special. If you just show up with your good looks and do a servicable or bland job of recitation, you're really not helping much and barely tapping into the sky-high potential of that character.

    Ewan, Natalie, Hayden (who "acts" in absolutes, either draggingly mopey or childessly loud) and Samuel don't do any of this. There is hardly any playful subtlety or real breath in their performances, just cold unfeeling lead from their lips.

    I think if the acting was better, and the dialogue was improved, and as Patrick said, if the pacing was more controlled, I'd like these prequels more. ROTS just had everything I hated about the prequels bumped up to insane proportions.

    Ben Burtt did a great job with the OT, and it's interesting to see him go to Pixar. I didn't mind his work in the PT, but I didn't like whoever was responsible for putting the JW score on the chopping block in the last two movies. Either it was Burtt or Lucas.
  13. Obi-Kris_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2002
    star 3
    Hi to all! I would like to remain unspoiled and not to log in the TFN until tommorow ([Tarpals] ROTS time! [/Tarpals]), but an old friend called on his need, since he has been banned :(.

    CeeJay says "HI!" to Binary, Hawk and Lady Sami. He says also that he wants to apologise to Blame_It_On_Lucas, about that post describing the target audience as "immature". It was late night and he fell victim of tiredness and a poor choice of words. He only meant to state that the film has a younger target audience basically.



    EDIT: Ben Burrt out of LFL? Hmm, too late I'd say, too late...



    I'm coming back tommorow, with first ROTS reactions (hopefully the spoiler policy will be off by then)
  14. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    JenX wrote: I post because it is FUN.

    That says it all right there.


    JohnWilliams00 wrote: I always look at Alec Guiness and the marvelous job he did with Obi Wan. Made him a real character. When I was watching ROTS I kept thinking, they need to take some notes form this man. When he in his hovel in ANH, telling Luke the campfire story of Darth Vader, he takes his time and plays with the words like a good actor should do. He tugs his beard, sits back and muses, sighs and curls his lips in the most subtle way. That is an actor really doing their job, where they bring their love of art and craft and make any character one we can feel for.

    =D= That's the best scene in SW (except for the binary sunset scene :D ).


    CeeJay, we eagerly await your return! Tomorrow is the day we can all discuss ROTS in here to our heart's content. I'm looking forward to it.
  15. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    JohnWilliams: The worse the theatre, the worse the mixing is. Even in a good theatre, the mixing is rotten.

    Well, IMHO there's a lot more to good pacing than simply making the whole thing go faster. It's the rhythm of the thing that really counts, and too often in ROTS I feel the same lack of rhythm that I've felt in the last two films and, to a certain extent, in ROTJ.

    Pat, see I disagree. I think the pacing of ROTS perfectly suits the mood of the film. "Fury." The film is angry, the music at times angry, the pace angry - fury. Events unfolding one after the other into a snowballing effect until they reach critical mass - then explode - and at the end, the pace slows, because it's like waking up from a bad dream and realizing what the heck just happened. IMHO (not that I'm all that humble ;) ) - it matches the film. Very different than other SW films, but I think that is a good thing in this instance -

    Ok - sorry - I'll try not to gush in here anymore. It feels dirty -


    I actually liked Ben Burtts work a lot in the prequels. I loved the swoopbike sounds in Menace and those seismic charges in AOTC. I could do without those comicbook robots but overall, I think Burtts sounds were unique and intresting. He did a lot better job than the artdepartment who designed the ships. I think the prequels were aesthetically quite a dissapointment. In the OT the ships were militaristic and instantly regognicable but in the PT the ships look like they've could've been from any other scifi show. The ships looked dull and boring. But the sounds were allways intresting. On the other hand I agree that Burtt butchered Williams score but still part of me feels sad for him leaving. Flame away!

    I whilst not partaketh in flammage upon you.

    Burtt is an extraordinary and perhaps even one of the greatest sound designers in the entire history of cinema. All SW fan owe him a bit of gratitude. SW wouldn't be SW without him..... lightsabers, laser guns, Vader's breath - to name an inkling of the huge work he has given. I do thank him and appreciate him for breathing life into the audio universe of the GFFA -

    Burtt is a terrible lead sound editor/mixer and an even worse film editor. He has, apparently, little appreciation for music or its power. His editing is choppy and lacks any sense of rhythm or pacing or mood. And frankly, his ego and own love for his sound quirks often win over story. Maybe the man just can't dance - he doesn't have 'beat' or 'soul', but whatever it is - his work editing the last few films and the DVDs was god awful.

    I'm telling you, he was 'gently urged in retirement.' If he was doing the job, Lucas wouldn't have taken half of his responsibilities away for REVENGE. Fans were furious over the DVD set, and given the fact that production on REVENGE went to the last minute - I guarantee Lucas didn't get what he wanted out of it.

    I thank him - but I'm dancing to see him go - his time was due.
  16. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    JohnWilliams00

    Do you think Ewan did a poor job, because I thought his acting was the best of the PT.

    Even when he had no lines you could see his body language nailed the role, for me anyways.

    He stroked his beard enough, LOL, just like ben from the OT.
  17. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "Pat, see I disagree. I think the pacing of ROTS perfectly suits the mood of the film. "Fury." The film is angry, the music at times angry, the pace angry - fury. Events unfolding one after the other into a snowballing effect until they reach critical mass - then explode - and at the end, the pace slows, because it's like waking up from a bad dream and realizing what the heck just happened. IMHO (not that I'm all that humble ) - it matches the film. Very different than other SW films, but I think that is a good thing in this instance - "


    I didn't feel that the pace was "angry" at all, particularly the first time I saw it. I felt that the pace and the mood of most of the first half of the film was mostly about showing off as many new CGI toys as possible. When they would settle into a dialogue-driven scene, it would begin to percolate and the growing sense of anger and despair would come out. Then, it would be "Hey... now we're off to see some Wookiees for no apparent reason other than because they look cool, and here's a boatload of fraction-of-a-second quick-cuts to make it look like more is happening than there really is."

    Luckily, Lucas let more dialogue scenes have at least half a breath before zipping onto the next toy show. Otherwise, ROTS might have run the risk of sinking down towards AOTC. IMHO, of course.
  18. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    . Then, it would be "Hey... now we're off to see some Wookiees for no apparent reason other than because they look cool, and here's a boatload of fraction-of-a-second quick-cuts to make it look like more is happening than there really is."


    Well, there WAS that too.
  19. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4

    Well I don't see the point in rejoicing about Burtt's departure now, it's not as if Lucas is going to be making anymore SW films, or any films for that matter.

    Can someone give me a couple of specific examples of bad sound mixing and or editing in tpm or aotc and I can check them and see if I agree.

    As for the pace of ROTS - well I didn't think it was fast, it just seemed to go along at the same pace all the way through, it never got into top gear, never really got exciting, well maybe towards the end of the rescue of the Chancellor .
    Same with the dramatic scenes - they never really built, they just sort of moped about .

    There is stuff I like about it ... but I'll avoid spoilers til tomorrow.

    g

  20. FuzzyRatt Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2003
    star 3
    I don't want to get to far into what I think of ROTS because of the spoiler rules but, I do wish to speak on a set of points made earlier.

    On the idea of this film being made with "bashers" in mind. GL has said many times the these (the PT) are his movies and he is only making them for himself. On the quility points that were made

    - Non-stop action
    Very true. For the most part the action was coming so fast that you didn't have time to really enjoy the action scene you just saw.

    - Excellent Plot
    I said it in my first post after seeing the film. The plot is only strong enough to get from one action scene to the next. There is no meat to this story. I have no feelings when characters get killed or hurt. An excellent plot would be about to make me care about the characters in the story. To feel something when one of them gets hurt or dies. This one doesn't do that to me.

    - No Jar Jar
    I'll take 20 minutes of Jar Jar being added to this film if I can get a plot worth watching in the deal.

    - Spectacular effects
    (hoping this doesn't count as a spoiler) [MOD EDIT: It does] The one thing, more than anything else, I wish GL would learn is that sometime less is more when it comes to film making.

    I will soon be able to get full details as to why I am not happy with this film. Most people will not like my thoughts but, it's just my point of view. And we should all have our own points of view.

    May the force be with you...always

  21. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    Blue_Jedi, I thought Ewan was actually worse in ROTS than the previous two. In TPM I could feel his brash eagerness to please his Master (and he did it without whining like Anakin did with his teacher), in AOTC he is not bad, but in ROTS I felt like he was, to take a Bilbo quote, the butter spread too thinly on a piece of bread. He looked bored to me, and there were three to four pivotal moments where he should've stepped forward in the acting but he played the same murderously boring note he always played his character in ROTS.

    I look forward to the spoilers-allowed critiques tomorrow. We'll get a better understanding on why so many of us are differing in viewpoints here.

    Last of all, this has probably been posted, but the Batman Begins 10 Minute preview really looks good.

    http://www.rustbucketbingo.com/video/The%20Batman%20Begins%2010%20Minute%20Preview%20From%20Smallville-1.avi (90 MB file)

    And for those wondering why I keep talking about acting, that little clip provides examples of how it;s possible to make a summer movie and still not act like your eyes are glazing over or you're bored of the part. That little boy that plays young Bruce Wayne is miles better than Jake. Chris Nolan is already a better actor's director than George Lucas. =D=
  22. Not_Applicable Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2002
    star 4
    That was it? Oh, come on, N_A, I've seen all the movies, no spoiler is THAT bad. So the end of 28 years means nothing to you because of one spoiler?? (Now Im curious which one).

    I said in and of itself the spoiler wasn't such a big deal, it was just the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. After so many years of rationalizing away all the staggering inconsistencies, I had simply had enough. I've said this many times before, but I can readily accept that EIII might actually be a decent movie. Because of my love of the classics, however, I absolutely cannot accept it as a legitimate part of the saga. Storytelling, I'm afraid, is a dying artform in today's society and if you ask me, people like George Lucas are only expediting its decay. Why bother with a meaningful and coherent story when a soulless spectacle will rake in so much dough?
  23. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    Thanks for the Batman Link

    A lot of good actors in that one.

    How come they get Imax and ROTS doesn't:(
  24. DarthMaul13 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 1998
    star 4
    I've seen ROTS again and now I have to agree with many that it is really the best of the prequels but still behind ROTJ. If Anakin's turn had more convincing and some of the bad dialogue between Anakin and Padme had been dropped, I would have bumped it above ROTJ. General Grevious is still a pointless character and Dooku was completely wasted. However the dialogue and acting were vastly improved, Jar Jar was basically non-existant, and the lightsabre battles were still entertaining.


    Current ranking in my mind

    1) ESB
    2) ANH
    3) ROTJ
    4) ROTS
    5) TPM
    6) AOTC
  25. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    You know, I don't really see it as "over."

    What is left? EU, TV, the super-uber-deluxe-"now this is my true vision, no really... OK, no, not really" edition? Without more new films, I cannot see it any other way. The 3D movies might be fun, and the TV show might not be half-bad, but as I said earlier, re-editions are not new movies (and not really even improvements to old ones) and the TV show isn't real SW. SW is film.


    Stryphe, it's interesting to me that you would take that position, as pretty much all of the "gushers" have been saying that very same thing about us "bashers" since the days of TPM and AOTC.

    And the irony of that is not lost on me.


    You should understand exactly why those hardcore bashers continue to post here - they still like talking about the films, even if they have negative things to report on them. This is what this Sanctuary was created for in the first place.

    Yes, I know, and I don't mind that being said or done to ROTS. But as a dedicate fan for 28 years, Wednesday was bigger to me than just one movie, good or bad. For better or worse, it was the last hurray. I know that most people in this thread are dedicate fans, too, so I figured you would all understand. I was really sad to see that so many people here didn't.

    I guess maybe I really was a gusher at heart all these years. Only now at the end, do I understand.


    Mind you, I'm not trying to flame bait, so please don't take my statements as an affront.

    Ah, don't worry, I knew you weren't flaming. Not your style :)


    Stryphe, I am also puzzled by your melancholy. The O-OT still exists (even if not on Lucasfilm-released DVDs) today no less than it did in 1977-1983. The O-OT will still exist long after we are all dead and buried. Star Wars has not ended.

    End <> Dead. SW is at an end, but it is not dead. There is a difference. But now SW will only live on through us, not with us or despite us.


    Think about all those Ben statements which were previously contradicted, questioned or ruined in the last two Prequels, most of those were bandaided by ROTS - and you only lost one other statement.

    Yeah, if by bandaid you mean bandaiding a severed head back to the body (see, I can still bash ;))


    Finally racking of all Star Wars Films
    8: Attack of the Clones
    7: The Battle for Endor
    6: Caravan of Courage
    5: Revenge of the Sith
    4: The Phantom Menace
    3: Return of the Jedi
    2: The Empire Strikes Back
    1: Star Wars


    Hey Fuzzy, isn't it suppose to be...

    2,998: Attack of the Clones ....
    ...8. The Holiday Special
    7: The Battle for Endor
    6: Caravan of Courage
    5: Revenge of the Sith
    4: The Phantom Menace
    3: Return of the Jedi
    2: The Empire Strikes Back
    1: Star Wars
    ;)

    By the way, I'm glad to see you have finally seen the light and moved ANH to #1 :)

    It was your destiny.


    Like I said before, every single ROTS basher is now an enemy of SW!!

    Go forth, do what must be done. Only then will you be strong enough to save ROTS.


    I made my point perfectly clear. You even quoted the relevant part in your post. But maybe I can illustrate it further. You said:

    "The films are SW. Everything else (TV shows included) is... just something else."

    replace "films" with "OT" and that might give you a clearer idea as to how I feel.


    And as I recall you hate the SE (what basher doesn't? ;)) and you said the OT ended a year before you were born, yes? So for you this is something gone to pass long ago, yes? Thus my conclusion about your post.


    You have obviously had quite an emotional reaction to seeing this last SW film. But don't try and pull that kind of straw man nonsense again please.

    Ah, the "straw man" card. You want to know a true thing? The straw man accusations is the lowest common demoniator of an otherwise intellegent discussion. Everytime it is thrown out, things disnegrate into a mess that a moderator ends up having to clean up in
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