Basher Sanctuary Episode 4: A New Forum

Discussion in 'Star Wars Community' started by Darth-Stryphe, Apr 14, 2004.

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  1. MajorNerd Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2004
    star 4
    Not nearly enough bashing of Mace Windu goes on here. He's without a doubt the worst character in the prequels.

    now that's a BOLD, BOLD statment with the level of suck the PT introduced...actually, the only new character the PT introduced that liked was darth maul...yep, that's it.

    And again... the Jedi keep saying there's a Sith Lord out there, but are making no visible effort to track him down.

    yep, i said this earlier in the spoiler thread. the scene when anakin finds out palps is a sith lord should be HUGE but it's not...i think has to do with anakin's line to mace after the fact, "i think the chancellor is the sith lord we've been looking for..." huh? looking for when? in the SW movies i've seen the jedi wouldn't even know what the hell a darth sidious was.

    Another thing that gets me is when Anakin talks about his new powers... what new powers? The Dark Side has only given him a new name, yellow eyes, and a mean streak (which he already had).

    yeah, i definitely bothered me that anakin didn't seem to powered by the darkside...it was like he was just going through the motions. i was disappointed that vader never did anything spectactular...whatever though.

    And therein lies my biggest problem with Anakin's turn. I didn't see him ever actually joining the Dark Side. Sure, he teams up with a Sith Lord, and kills a bunch of no-name Jedi but he isn't full of hate or anger but is doing it for love... and there I am in the cinema thinking eh? What happened to the seduction?

    darth vader turning to the darkside for love is the worst idea EVAR!!!

    The prophecy thing is rather stupid too. Are none of the characters paying attention to the actual words being used? Why did the Jedi ever feel like it was going to be fufilled when according to them, the Sith were extinct? And when the chosen did turn up, and these wise masters did believe in it, did they firstly not realise that the Sith must therefore be alive, and then that Anakin would bring balance to the Force and therefore wipe them down to two to balance the Sith (that they somehow knew only
    came in twos)? And how does Anakin fulfil this prophecy when he eventually unbalances the Force by getting rid of the Sith in ROTJ?

    So the Force goes UNBALANCED-BALANCED-UNBALANCED. Methinks someone didn't really think about the prophecy/chosen one properly.


    i've always hated the prophecy since it's such an after thought idea by lucas...no one knows what bringing the "balance" to the force means and we sure as hell aren't told in any of the movies...
  2. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    As to the point that Nute confesses to Anakin about Sidious promising them peace, maybe Anakin isn't that dumb after all, thats why he tells Padme he is going to take him out.
  3. I_AM_IRON_MAN Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    star 2
    A couple of points on why I didn't like ROTS

    1. The beginning with the "wacky" adventures of R2D2, and those stupid talking droids, really took me out of the movie and put me in a bad mood. Who would program droids to feel emotions like panic and cowardice?

    2. I didn't think the opening space battle was very good, although it was cool when R4 got decapitated.

    3. Ok, Anakin's turn would have worked for me, if he hadn't had personaly killed about 10-15 children. I can't believe any sane person would do that for his wife, and Anakin had not had enough time to become the kind of utterly vile evil person to commit such an act. If he would have ordered someone else to do it, that would be fine. If he would have killed other adults, that would be fine. But not kids, just too unbelievable.

    4. "Vader was seduced by the dark side of the force." That didn't really happen, did it? He more or less agreed to go along with an evil plan to serve his own interests, and just kind of lost it when it appeared Padme turned on him (i.e. he is paranoid).

    5. I actually was laughing when Padme died, really loudly, because I thought the acting and dialogue were horrible.

    6. I can't believe most of the Jedi purge happened because Jedi knights and masters were shot with blasters. Luke took out an entire gang by himself, and these guys can't sense they are about to be shot, or fight back effectively. Terrible.

    That's about it. I just can't judge this movie as a stand alone film. It is too tarnished by the previous two movies, and I expected it to have less continuity errors with the OT then it did.
  4. FuzzyRatt Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2003
    star 3
    You're right, Stryphe. I forgot about the Holiday Special. I'll take 20 minutes of Wookies talking to each other over Yoda with a lightsader anyday. [face_plain]


    Now that I really think about, The Emperor/Yoda duel will slowly but, surly move ROTS down my list the more I watch it. Who knows, in the end it my become the worst of them all.
  5. topgoalscorer_no11 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 3
    Who would program droids to feel emotions like panic and cowardice?

    Christ, have you ever watched Star Wars, Empire or Jedi?

    Ever heard of C3PO?

    Dumbest bash ever.

  6. I_AM_IRON_MAN Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    star 2
    ^

    I suppose that's true, but I wouldn't expect it in battle droids.
  7. a2dmusic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2001
    star 3
    Gotta agree with that one. I hated the voices for the battle droids in ROTS, but anthropomorphising droids has been part of SW since the beginning. I don't hear as frequent complaints about the "pain" GONK endures when it's branded at Jabba's palace.
  8. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Chastise me if I'm wrong though

    You're both right- it's "Power- unlimited power!" (I loved his "no. Noooo. NOOOOO!" myself...)

    >>>>>Ok, Anakin's turn would have worked for me, if he hadn't had personaly killed about 10-15 children. I can't believe any sane person would do that for his wife, and Anakin had not had enough time to become the kind of utterly vile evil person to commit such an act.

    The thing is, what else was he going to do? "Sorry Darth Sidious, even though I betrayed Mace Windu, I've changed my mind about being a Sith so I'm not going to be following your orders. Fancy a duel?"

    >>>>But what really sticks out is how Lucas sold out the idea of midicholorians. The whole point is supposed to be that Anakin was created by Darth Plagueis (sp?) yet that detail was cut out. This was alluded to in TPM with a music cue no less & when it came time to deliver Lucas dropped it, thus making the whole point of midis pointless.

    That's not the impression I got at all; I thought the main point was that Palpatine was implying to Anakin that he had learnt the Sith's secret of eternal life, and that he was the only one Anakin could learn it from. Then as soon as Windu was dead and Anakin had passed the "no turning back" point, Palpatine's story subtly changed to "together we can learn this power"- ie. he didn't actually have the secret at all. Just like the "ooh, I'm too weak" act, Anakin was seduced by lies and deceit.

    I figured that there was supposed to be an undertone that Anakin would have been questioning whether he was ultimately the Jedi's "Chosen One" or just a creation of a dead Sith, but that it was just a part of Palpatine's lies and deception. I suppose there's also the same issue with pretty much all of Anakin's mistakes that there is a middle ground he fails to see, and it's possible that he was both.

    If Palpatine was telling the truth, I don't see where creating Anakin would have fit into Darth Plagueis' plan though. Seems a bit random.

    >>>>So the Force goes UNBALANCED-BALANCED-UNBALANCED. Methinks someone didn't really think about the prophecy/chosen one properly.

    Probably, but it's not Lucas.
    The Force is naturally balanced. The Sith disrupt this balance. Anakin is born, destroys the Sith and restores balance. It's not about equal numbers.

    >>>>darth vader turning to the darkside for love is the worst idea EVAR!!!

    I thought it was made explicitly clear that fear was the reason for his turn, but there you go...

    >>>>no one knows what bringing the "balance" to the force means and we sure as hell aren't told in any of the movies...

    We aren't told what the Dark Side is either, but plenty of people managed to figure that one out too...

    >>>>That little youngling that asked Anakin a question was pretty bad too.

    I believe that was a mini-Lucas.
  9. I_AM_IRON_MAN Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    star 2
    As far as not killing the children...

    Perhaps Anakin could have made some attempt to hide the kids and not kill them. Perhaps he could have ordered the troopers to do it. Perhaps he could have hid them, then the troopers find and kill them. Maybe Anakin doesn't even find them first, the troopers do.

    In Star Wars, adults kill adults; it's war, that's fine. I don't have a problem with Anakin killing other Jedi - he doesn't like or trust them. However, to me, hacking up a bunch of human children is indefensable. Any sane person would not be able to do that. At least, not in the short time frame we are talking about.

    So that's really the bottom line for me, too evil in too short of a time.
  10. MajorNerd Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2004
    star 4
    if it was only fear that brought anakin to the darkside, then why didn't he fear to lose his best friend or the people that raised him?

    also, the "darkside" is explained a helluva lot more than "balancing" the force...that's not an accurate comparison.
  11. Tester Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2004
    star 1
    Finally, we get the heart of the matter, and it still beats! He wasted his time in TPM. He so much as admitted that AOTC was filler. And now, he has unleashed a movie that should be devided in half and expanded.

    My final suggestions to Lucas as I take my leave of this place... Condense TPM and AOTC into one film using the non-cringe worthy scenes. Make two films from the combination of the Clone Wars cartoon and ROTS so that we, the audience, actually see the full story on the big screen. It would also have been a nice touch if Anakin's allegiances had been thrown into question much earlier, perhaps in the previous film!

    I could bash specific scenes and whatnot, but I think I will leave it with broad strokes.

  12. Tatooine_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2003
    star 4
    MajorNerd:
    if it was only fear that brought anakin to the darkside, then why didn't he fear to lose his best friend or the people that raised him?

    Anakin bonded with Padme deeper and before he bonded with the Jedi. He fell in love with her the first time he saw her, and she was the one to comfort him after he left his mother behind. You'd expect this from Qui-Gon, but he, nor Obi-Wan did this.
    And I think it happens quite a lot that a guy puts his wife over his friends...or otherwise I have the wrong friends. :p
  13. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    Oh, now I suddenly remember the sheer stupidity that is GENERAL GRIEVIOUS!!! Lord, this character is jsut dumb! Not menacing as villain, not all that funny as a source of humour.

    But what really made Grievious so grieviously (hah!) bad is that he sounds like a character from Cartoon Network. I can't remember the character's name, but he's a mad genius who wants to conquer the world but after a battle or something he's left only as brain and so he has to use a bear as a body (yeah, cartoon these days are weird! [face_laugh]).

    Anyway, I can't take Grievious seriously with that sort of voice. Awful character! But still not as bad as Padme, dammit!

    [face_plain]
  14. MajorNerd Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2004
    star 4
    And I think it happens quite a lot that a guy puts his wife over his friends...or otherwise I have the wrong friends.

    exactly, so he went to the darkside for love, not just fear of loss...
  15. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    That's not the impression I got at all; I thought the main point was that Palpatine was implying to Anakin that he had learnt the Sith's secret of eternal life, and that he was the only one Anakin could learn it from. Then as soon as Windu was dead and Anakin had passed the "no turning back" point, Palpatine's story subtly changed to "together we can learn this power"- ie. he didn't actually have the secret at all. Just like the "ooh, I'm too weak" act, Anakin was seduced by lies and deceit.

    Right , so at this point Sids has admitted he doesn't know how to save padme but rather than becoming enraged at being deceived jerky-boy just says "yeah, okay, I'll go and kill all the kids and my friends and the jedi etc anyway "
    ^ one of the dumbest scenes in cinema history as far as I'm concerned .

    Anakin's whole motivation is to save padme, so when Sid admits he can't Anakin would've said "You lying bastard! " and proceeded from there .
    Anakin's motivations/character just get switched on and off whenever it's convenient .

    g

  16. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    It's so stupid how Anakin goes over to Palpatine's side even after he can't guarantee the whole "stop people from dying" thing. Stupid. Plus the fact that he's doing it all for Padme, a character I HATE, pretty much sealed my ever-lasting hate for the while "seduction" thing.

    I can't believe Luke is this guy's son. Maybe Owen did something right in Luke's upbringing, made sure he's not as dumb as daddy.

    [face_plain]
  17. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    Well remember, the key all along to Palpatine's manipulation of Anakin was that Anakin was hearing what he wanted to hear. He wasn't in the moment, he wasn't being mindful, he was too busy obsessing over his visions of Padme's death. His seduction by the Dark Side started long before that scene in Palpatine's office with Mace.

    Yes, he was acting foolishly. The very act of turning to the Dark Side was a foolish act. This is not the story of a man making good choices, or even rational choices.
  18. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>if it was only fear that brought anakin to the darkside, then why didn't he fear to lose his best friend or the people that raised him?

    I didn't say it was "only fear"- just that fear was clearly the main motivating force behind his actions. He was afraid to lose Padme to the point of obsession, and all the Jedi were telling him was that he had to learn to let go- ie. to deal with his fear, instead of letting it guide his actions. Palpatine told him what he wanted to hear- that it was possible to "defeate" his fear and to save her, so then he was afraid of losing Palpatine. That's obviously why he attacked Mace- out of the fear of what might be lost if Palpatine died.

    As far as I can see, saying that he turned to the dark side for love is like saying he killed the Tuskens because he loved his mother- it's technically true (from a certain point of view) but seems to me to be be deliberately missing the point.

    As for his best friend, remember that Anakin genuinely believed (or at least wanted to believe) that he was doing the right thing by staying loyal to the Republic- as far as he was concerned, defending the chancellor from Mace Windu was no different to saving him from Dooku.

    >>>>also, the "darkside" is explained a helluva lot more than "balancing" the force...that's not an accurate comparison.

    Well, can you explain to me what the Dark Side is? (And not just that fear and anger lead to the Dark Side- unless you genuinely think that's all there is to it, of course.) Because it seems to me that if you can explain that, then you can explain "balance."

    [EDIT- Gezvader, Palpatine never tells Anakin that he has the power and can/will teach it to him- he implies it, but says that he will only be able to achieve it through the Dark Side. That *is* seduction. And it's certainly true enough that he's never going to get anything from the Jedi about how to save Padme from his nightmares other than how to deal with the nightmares, ie. the fear itself. But he's too consumed by his fear to realise that's what he needs to get around- not the thing he's afraid of. And of course, that's exactly why Padme dies.]
  19. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    But it would have made sense if Palpatine can guarantee Anakin will get what he wants (i.e. save Padme from dying, blah blah). But Palaptine expressly states he can't guarantee that! If Anakin is truly obsessed about Padme's safety, he would want strong guarantees, no? Something certain!

    Bah! Stupid!

    EDIT: And Anakin's obsession about a character I hate pretty much ensures I will never like this whole thing. Yes, I'm repeating myself, but I have to say it! I hate Padme!

    Coming soon: Lurking's list of Padme's sins
  20. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>But Palaptine expressly states he can't guarantee that!

    Not until it's too late- he expressly states that the Jedi don't have the answers he is looking for, and that the Sith do.
  21. Patrick Russell Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "But it would have made sense if Palpatine can guarantee Anakin will get what he wants (i.e. save Padme from dying, blah blah). But Palaptine expressly states he can't guarantee that! If Anakin is truly obsessed about Padme's safety, he would want strong guarantees, no? Something certain!"


    Why are you insisting that a man who is turning to the Dark Side would be making calm, measured, logical choices along the way? Anakin is in a panic over the thought of losing Padme. He's obsessed with saving her to the point where she eventually almost becomes an object for him to possess rather than a loved one for him to save. (Look at Anakin's face, particularly his eyes, when Padme goes into his arms talking about "Hold me like you used to at the lake house." He isn't even there with her.) In other words, he is losing his perspective on everything as he goes along, including his perspective on the woman he loves.

    By the time Palpatine implies that he does not yet know Plagueis' secret for saving Padme, but that together they can discover the secret, Anakin isn't listening to details. He's only listening to the part of it that he wants to hear, which is that Palpatine will accept him as his apprentice, and that the Dark Side, with all its rumored secrets of eternal life, are now open to him.

    The boy ain't readin' the fine print. If he were in a mental space to be reading that fine print, he wouldn't be in a mental space where he'd be willing to turn to the Dark Side in the first place.
  22. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    Too late? Nope, Anakin could have walked away. But he chose not too, since he's a big idiot. Yippie!

    [face_plain]

    "Yes Master, I will obey even though you can't really help my problem! Yes, let me go kill the kids!"

    Bah!

    And the attack on the Jedi Temple was laughable! They all marched there in plain sight, slowly, leisurely...what? No Jedi lookouts, or is it standard practice to parade clones into the Temple???

    "Oh look, Skywalker is bringing clones for supper! Bring out the dishes, boys!"

    I expected something more sneaky, like the assault on Professor X's mmansion in "X-2". Then again, the Jedi were idiots...

    [face_plain]

    By the time Palpatine implies that he does not yet know Plagueis' secret for saving Padme, but that together they can discover the secret, Anakin isn't listening to details.

    But he should be paying attention to details if he really cares about Padme and wanted to ensure her survival, etc. Instead, he settles on a "maybe"...? Huh, that's a pretty pathetic obsession.

    "Hey Padme, I've destroyed Jedi so that I'll save you...maybe! Fingers crossed!"

    [face_plain]
  23. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    ^^^

    Better put than me.

    [Edit- That was supposed to point to Patrick's post...]-
  24. Tachikoma-Kun Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2005
    star 3
    Doh! I forgot to mention those weird kunfu poses Obi-Wan does before he starts a duel. I wonder who's idea those were.. :p I would have liked to see Mace do a couple of kunfuposes as well..Heck I think every StarWars character should do a couple of kunfu poses somewhere in the movies. In fact I think vader should allways start his duels with a eloquent kunfu pose :D
  25. a2dmusic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2001
    star 3
    Patrick - right on! You put it far better than I could have.
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