Basher Sanctuary Episode 4: A New Forum

Discussion in 'Star Wars Community' started by Darth-Stryphe, Apr 14, 2004.

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  1. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    One thing that just occurred to me... there is a comparatively subtle thing going on throughout the last half of the film where Anakin seems like he's starting to talk himself into suspecting that there's something between Padme and Obi Wan. Did anyone else catch this?



    Yes, it's there. And only mildly built upon in the novel. It's part jealousy and part Anakin being the middle of a major game being played between the Jedi, Obi-Wan as his friend, his wife, his wife as Senator, the Senate, and Palpatine -- and being sick of being in the middle.

    The movie did a good job of coming back to that right before the Duel by having him get upset with all the talk of Obi-Wan, and then blame Obi-Wan for turning her against him. The movie did a tremendous job of just capturing these themes very subtly and with little exposition (often only with editing and visual hints) considering so much was sliced out of the novel. And in ways, the movie does it better -


    EDIT adding:

    And yes, Patrick, subtext, subtleties and internally consistency is what shocks me the absolute most. Especially after AOTC. You can find a post just last Wednesday about Lucas slapping us in the face with a cold dead wet trout to get the point across. REVENGE is full of very subtle nuances and internal consistencies.

    Events, visual imagery, small lines of dialogue which taken at face value mean little, but taken in context of the film as a whole add a lot of meaning or foreshadow events later in the film. The film builds on itself, and is full of soft story telling that I mistakenly thought Lucas incapable of since 1983.


    Ezon Pin likes this.
  2. SomeRandomNerd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Actually, what I like about the possibility of this being subtext is exactly that... it's actual subtext for once.

    [face_laugh]
  3. Kill_Off_Jar_Jar Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2005
    star 1
    The movie did a tremendous job of just capturing these themes very subtly and with little exposition

    Ah yes, I forgot about the reference right before the duel, too. The film does a good job of establishing Anakin as increasingly confused and paranoid, and I think these touches with supsicion of Obi-Wan add well to that.

    You can find a post just last Wednesday about Lucas slapping us in the face with a cold dead wet trout to get the point across. REVENGE is full of very subtle nuances and internal consistencies.

    Amen. I watched AOTC after seeing ROTS and the dialogue/exposition in AOTC is just relentless. Usually spoken by Mace: "It is agreed. You will do X, and I will do Y. This is important because of Z. Everyone still with me?"

    I think that a lot of people will try to redeem TPM and AOTC by saying was a lot of foreshadowing in each. Well, those moments are handled with all the subtlety of the Las Vegas strip. "The day we stop believing democracy will work is the day we lose it." "Let's pray that day never comes." Yes, I get it, I get it.
  4. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5

    Well, those moments are handled with all the subtlety of the Las Vegas strip.

    LOL

    Yes, I love it when they try to say the Tusken slaughter was a nice foreshadowing of Anakin turning evil. Isn't a foreshadow subtle? I mean, that scene put the big red neon sign on his head.

    I watched AOTC some Saturday, the last half, and it was crappier than ever for me. Its flaws more apparent. The acting more wooden. The action more forced with no strands of cohesiveness. The effects terrible and even the music in worse shape than ever. To me, that is a film that is, technically speaking, the knotted smelly dirty hairball in SW's buttcrack.
  5. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    When I first logged on this morning, my clicking was off because 3NSA is gone and 3SA is now just the ROTS forum!

    I hate clicking on the wrong forum!

    Oh, yeah, I'm supposed to bash the movies, not the forum construction!

    Stryphe,

    I don't know what to say to you. I don't feel that SW has ended, just that the movies themselves are over.

    I have a feeling that my reluctance to go see ROTS is part of not wanting it to be over, as it will be when I finally see the movie.

    Funny, last week, I was even contemplating going to the midnight show with my fan force buddies. Now, I am hesitating to see it. Go figure.

    Maybe I, too, am a gusher who likes to bash. But, if that were true, then TPM would be a good movie, which it isn't.

    I still hold out hope that Lucas will relent and make 7, 8 & 9. Fool's hope, I know, but....

    Saw AOTC last night, the channel I was watching cut out the "I hate sand line." Still didn't make the scene any better, in fact, taking that line out makes the subsequent kiss come out of nowhere.

  6. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 7
    gezvader
    Yeah, but the point is Anakin wants to save padme and Sid admits he can't.

    Sids never says that. He says that only one has truly discovered that power and that together he and Vader can.
    Knowing that Sids still holds the key to saving Padme, you want Anakin to kill him? Aint gonna happen. He's obssessed with saving her...even to the point where he can't see he's being deceived. Sidious never intends to tell him how to use this power. He only intends to hold it over his head like a hammer.

    Hud, there was also the scene where Padme says Obi-Wan can help them save her and the children and Anakin says: "We don't need him" or something like that.

    EDIT
    Okay, I have to bash something about this movie. It's a nitpick, but I think is still important to the pace and flow of the movie:

    Too many landing gear shots! Does Lucas have to show every damn ship coming in for a landing?! I counted at least TEN! Can we say overkill?!
    Why must he do this?!

    Next to the annoying droid voices, this is my second biggest nitpick.

    Of the few things I found wrong with this movie.....one was something dealing with sound. :confused:
  7. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Maybe I, too, am a gusher who likes to bash. But, if that were true, then TPM would be a good movie, which it isn't.


    In the end, aren't we all? We gush about what we love and bash what we feel is wrong. :p
  8. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Yeah, that's true, but I don't think constructive criticism is bashing, per se. Or even thinking how you would have done something differently than it was done in the movie.

    I'm actually quite surprised by the number of bashers who are coming quite close to gushing, if not actually gushing over this movie!

  9. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    ShaneP, yeah, good call - there was that scene too.

    Does Lucas have to show every damn ship coming in for a landing?! I counted at least TEN! Can we say overkill?!
    Why must he do this?!


    I may disagree with you here. It may have been overkill. I didn't notice it. But I will say, I thought AOTC suffered from what I call, "lack of a journey" and by that I mean characters just showing up from one place to the next. In the Originals, everywhere the characters went was preceded by a leaving/arriving shot and I think it adds to the sense of adventure in STAR WARS.

    So, I did notice there was a lot of them, but I was thinking it was good. But, there may be TOO many - I'll look out for it.

  10. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 7
    Well, I'm not really talking about the shots over a new planet with the ship flying in, or even a few shots showing it coming in for a landing.

    I'm just talking about how every shot had the ship flying in, extending its landing gear, and then setting down.

    Mix it up a little. Show some flying over the planet, cut to show the ship already touched down, and then show others coming in and landing.

    It's just every landing scene followed the same pattern: ship flies in, landing gear extends, ship slowly touches down.
    Over and over.

    It's a nitpick, so if you don't notice it, no bother.
  11. MajorNerd Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2004
    star 4
    one thing i don't like about theforce.net is the fact that you're either a basher or gusher...before i discovered this site i wasn't even aware of either term but i found out the first time i was critical anything related to SW. why does everything have to be so black and white? i know what i like and i definitely know what i don't like...is that wrong? last time checked SW wasn't a full fledged religion...it is still ok to accept some parts and discard the parts that don't float your boat...
  12. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I'm with you, MajorNerd! Well said!

  13. anidanami124 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    I kind of liked the Order 66 takeover and the turning of the Clones. However, I'm not clear how they are able to tell 100% who a Jedi is and who is just a weird looking alien?

    This one is simple. It is any one who is leading them that is not:

    A) dressed like them.
    B) Has a lightsaber.

    :p
  14. HanSolo29 Manager Emeritus + Official Star Wars Artist

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 6
    I'm actually quite surprised by the number of bashers who are coming quite close to gushing, if not actually gushing over this movie!

    Well, I admit it. I'm one of those people that are actually gushing over this film. I personally really liked it. For me, the Star Wars magic is back. Of course, now I'm disregarding both TPM and AOTC like they don't exist. But like MajorNerd just said, Star Wars isn't a religion and we are free to accept and totally throw out whatever we want concerning it.

    I'm quite content with thinking the Star Wars Saga as ROTS, ANH, ESB and ROTJ.
  15. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 7
    I agree with you Major Nerd. We're SW fans. :)

  16. Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 5
    I'm quite content with thinking the Star Wars Saga as ROTS, ANH, ESB and ROTJ.

    I agree these four films are the true essence of the Saga, and that to a certain extent ROTS is the only prequel that we need. In fact, I've been trying to sell this idea to my friends who hate the first two prequels but thought III was excellent if flawed.

    However, as they have pointed out, without TPM a viewer will never understand the significance of the jappor snippet, and without AOTC the question of the Clones, and of Dooku -- nevermind how Ani and Padme fell in love!

    On the other hand, the original film makes dramatic use of in medias res. We don't need to see Leia seizing the plans or the Rebels winning their first victory in order for the story to involve us from frame one. So perhaps ROTS truly can serve as the first movie in the saga, should one choose to present it in this fashion.

  17. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 7
    Vortigern99
    without TPM a viewer will never understand the significance of the jappor snippet,

    But doesn't Padme basically tell Anakin that: "Remember this you gave me so long ago"?

    To me, you can go into ROTS and get it. It works so well as the sole prequel story.

    And about their relationship: she even talks about their time in the lake country on Naboo.
  18. Patrick Russell Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    I tend to think I'll be doing much the same thing. ROTS, I think, really WILL end up being the backstory to the OT for me as time goes on. TPM and AOTC are just neither enjoyable enough for me to watch them all that often, nor do they seem to be all that vital to the story. Yes, you get a few things like the necklace Padme wears, you get the backstory on Qui Gon and on Dooku, but really... what is there that absolutely HAS to be seen in order for Revenge of the Sith to work? Not much, as far as I can tell.
  19. gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 5
    No- he says that they can learn it together

    Right - so he doesn't know . Seems pretty clear to me . And up until that point Anakin obviously believes that he does know, that he learnt it from his master etc.


    g



  20. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    Very well said, MajorNerd. I went over to the 3SA today and glanced through the "things you don't like" thread. Mind you - obviously, I'm on the gushing side of ROTS here - but the number of people in that thread harassing people for their criticisms is irking me. People have valid complaints and I'm hearing the usual "whiner" and "ungrateful" and regular trash.

    1) Why even go and read that thread if you are going to go mental over someone's dislikes?

    2) How can you flame someone or call them a "whiner" about someone's dislikes in a thread devoted to dislikes, doesn't that make you the whiner?

    Anyways - we may not agree on this film - but I'm with you all the way on that -
  21. gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 5
    Sids never says that. He says that only one has truly discovered that power and that together he and Vader can

    He says "Only my master truly achieved that power, but together I'm sure we will find it. "
    He doesn't have the power.

    Knowing that Sids still holds the key to saving Padme, you want Anakin to kill him? Aint gonna happen. He's obssessed with saving her

    That's my point - he's obssessed with saving her, when he asks Sid to tell him how Sid can't. And that's what makes what follows utterly ridiculous.

    g




  22. Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 5
    But doesn't Padme basically tell Anakin that: "Remember this you gave me so long ago"?

    ShaneP, I believe it's Anakin who points it out, but yeah, good point either way. Knowing they were both children when he gave it to her deepens its meaning, IMO, but I suppose it's not vital to the scene or the film as a whole.

    And about their relationship: she even talks about their time in the lake country on Naboo.

    That's true. We know they must have had a courtship at some point, and that it was a secretive affair.


    Yes, you get a few things like the necklace Padme wears, you get the backstory on Qui Gon and on Dooku, but really... what is there that absolutely HAS to be seen in order for Revenge of the Sith to work?

    Patrick Russel, thanks for mentioning Qui Gon. That little tidbit at the end with Yoda "explaining" the Force-spirit phenomenon only makes a lick of sense if we know who Qui-Gon was and what was so special about him. Otherwise, this non-essential factoid/tip-o-the-hat might as well be left on the cutting room floor, IMO.

  23. _Darth_Brooks_ Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 4
    Well, foregoing viewing episodes I and II certainly eliminates a number of unresolved dangling sub-plots.

    Although, of course, someone else will be sure to mention how abrupt such things as Palpatine's Plagueis/midichlorian tale would be...but, then, the hallmark of the PT is it's abruptness, particularly in II and III. TPM was much more mindnumbingly plodding in it's ennui-esque telling.

    Even so, ROTS, ANH and ESB are the three best overall, followed by ROTJ...if only Lucas could find some way to delete the Ewoks in a future edition.

    I would say that the most noble and compassionate character...if inexcuseably under-used...was Bail Organa who was kind enough to have 3PO's memory wiped.
    If only Bail could be so kind to the audience membership...

    Leading me to say that I wish it were possible for me to view the series in episodic order afresh, going into TPM knowing nothing about the series.

    On the other hand, Lucas knew enough to start with ANH, as had the series been theatrically released in chronological order, more than likely, there would have never been five subsequent episodes.

    One of the problems with TPM is that it assumes the audience is already aware of some of the basic SW universe premises, such that no actual expositional treatment is presented to the viewers. Whereas ANH does present exposition through it's dialogue pertaining to all the necessary elements pertinent to the story-line, from Luke's relationship to the Jedi, to the Jedi Order and Sith and the Force, etceteras. It may be reasonably suggested that the series may only ever make sense when viewed starting with the OT and then following with the PT.





  24. Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 5
    I post the following, from Thulium's thread about seeing ANH in a fresh persepctive, as a reply to the above post about the PT only making sense in light of the OT:


    Yesterday, I had a very rare privilege that I would like to share. First, some background: I've been a Fan for literally as long as I can remember. Some of my earliest memories were seeing ESB with my father when I was 5 years old and initially relating only to Yoda because he had "Grover's voice." By the time RotJ was released I had grown to love Star Wars. Since the Prequel Trilogy was announced, my fascination with the Galaxy Far Far Away has been renewed and I've been following every aspect fervently. Contrast this perspective with my friend who, prior to meeting me had never seen a Star Wars film. Unable to avoid the media blitz surrounding all things Star Wars, she had heard peripherally of Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, and Darth Vader but had absolutely no other information. With only a 3-day age difference, but a galaxy?s worth of perspective separating us, she has semi-reluctantly agreed to watch the films with me to ?see what all the fuss is about.? Make no mistake, she is no slouch?she is an educator/administrator with a Master?s Degree in Special Education and Pyschology?she?s just a girl who never had a convincing reason to see the movies.

    I have taken this opportunity to ?experiment? by showing her the films in their correct episodic order and observe her perspective. In the past several weeks, we watched Episode I & II in anticipation of Revenge of the Sith. After Episode I, she said she liked the movie a lot more than she expected. Her initial reaction was that she liked Jar Jar and thought he was really funny. She also liked Anakin and told me she thought he was going to be ?hot? when he grew up. Her prediction proved correct in Episode II, to which she also gave a positive review.

    I attended a midnight screening of Episode III with an old buddy, and saw it again the next day with another friend. Yesterday, however, we traveled for three hours on a weekend trip from Portland, OR to Seattle, WA and another 30 minutes to the suburb of Monroe for the nearest DLP Projector. This was my third screening of Episode III giving me the opportunity to watch for subtleties and enjoy the film in all its digital glory. For the record: The movie is breathtaking in DLP and the difference was a striking as the difference between my first viewing at midnight without my contact lenses available and my second, with contacts in. It was definitely worth the trip, and I?m considering doing it again just for Star Wars.

    During the film I watched my friend?s reaction as Darth Sidious christened his new apprentice and giggled to myself as she said, ?What?!?? in shock, disbelief, and a little bit of confusion because she thought that Darth Vader was the scary guy in the black mask.

    I pestered her with questions after the film. She said she liked the movie, she really liked Yoda, and Padmé, and she said that she liked Anakin ?until he started being really mean.? At one point, I laughed in spite of myself when she?d forgotten where in the Saga this movie was and said, ?I can really see where they left room to make more movies. I?d like to see what happens when those babies grow up.? I then reminded her that she does have 3 more movies to watch and she said that she is now really looking forward to them and started asking me questions like, ?Do the twins ever find out that Darth Vader is their father?? I began to explain to her that Luke grows up believing that his father was killed and she actually said (I?m not making this up), ?Well, that?s actually kind of true. He wasn?t Anakin anymore. The evil took over and he was basically dead. They weren?t really lying to him.?

    Since it has been the source of some criticism, I asked her about the ?believability? of Anakin?s turn?did she understand why he chose to do what he did? Her answer: ?Yeah, it made total sense. That?s the way it is in real life. He thought that was the only way he could sav
  25. Patrick Russell Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 4
    "That's my point - he's obssessed with saving her, when he asks Sid to tell him how Sid can't. And that's what makes what follows utterly ridiculous."


    See, but you're still expecting calm, logical, reasoned decision-making out of this guy, and by the time the scene in question rolls around he isn't anywhere near that particular mental space. He's desperate, he's panicking, he's clutching at straws, and he is hearing only what he wants to hear. And what he hears is that Palpatine will train him in the ways of the Dark Side, and this will lead to Anakin being able to save Padme. Period. That's all he's hearing.

    His turn to the Dark Side has been happening for awhile at this point, and it takes some time afterwards for it to finish happening. This isn't some simple before-and-after event. Look at the shot of Anakin on Mustafar after he murders the Separatist leaders. He's standing on a balcony with tears running down his face. He's still obviously vacillating to a certain extent, and seems to be conscious on some level that something awful is happening to him.

    Palpatine doesn't tell him, by the way, that he can't save Padme... merely that it will take the two of them working together to discover the secret. So the carrot is still hanging there. What is Anakin going to do, kill Palpatine because he can't save Padme quickly enough? No. He believes exactly what he believed moments before when he stopped Mace Windu from killing Palpatine... that the ONLY hope for saving Padme lies within the teachings of the Dark Side.

    So, like a good con man, Palpatine draws his mark along by always keeping the payoff just down the road a piece, yet just close enough to seem almost within his mark's reach. Palpatine knows damned good and well that he can't heal Padme yet (and I don't necessarily think he ever really knew how in the first place) because this would give Anakin what he wants, and Anakin would not move further down the dark path to the point where Palpatine has him ensnared once and for all. Palpatine NEEDS Anakin to murder Jedi. He NEEDS Anakin to kill children. He NEEDS Anakin to slay the Separatist leaders.

    He needs Anakin to develop a taste for blood, and for the raw power of the Dark Side.

    And ultimately, he needs Anakin to believe that he has killed everyone he cares about, especially Padme. Then, Palpatine will have him in his thrall once and for all.

    He would not have gotten this had he simply gone and helped Anakin save Padme right away.

    So, he nudges the finish line a little further down the road, justifying it by appealing to Anakin's need for interpersonal connections. "Together, WE will discover the answer."

    It doesn't create a problem for me that Anakin doesn't simply kill Palpatine because Palpatine "won't give him an Oompa-Loompa NOW, Daddy!" To me, it just shows how malleable Anakin's fear and obsession have made him.
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