Basher Sanctuary Episode I: The Phantom Thread

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Darth-Stryphe, Jan 3, 2004.

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  1. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Ree Yees, you asked, "How can the OT feel magical when its creator turns out to be a hoax?

    The George Lucas of the 1970s was a very different person than the George Lucas of today. Today's Lucas is a hoax and a sham. But the 1970s Lucas was an incredibly admirable creator and director. He worked with his team, and he accepted their help. He worked night and day on the original SW. He worked so hard he was at his wits' end, and he was so stressed that he literally put himself in the hospital, thinking he was having a heart attack. He poured his heart and his soul into that movie, and out of the crucible came The Perfect Movie. Nothing can ever take that away.

    Now he's a pompous buffoon who doesn't know which end is up. But that doesn't change the fact that he used to be very, very cool.

    (And as for ESB: That's Kersh and Kurtz's movie. Lucas was out of the loop on that one.)
  2. Lukes_Grandfather Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2004
    star 1
    who of those guys stayed true to their vision?

    :confused:
  3. SHB-JR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2000
    star 4
    Well said Binary ! Well said ! GL for the OT I'd buy a drink. For the PT I sit him down and tell him off.
    Doesn't mean I'd take away the drink ;)

    Lukes_Grandfather, I think DarthMeul, who is of course a gusher, is trying to point out that Jackson had to deviate from Tolkiens vision more than Lucas had to from his own- ie: Lucas was truer to the vision of the original project.

    To which I'd say, yes perhaps, but one or two important differences.

    It worked for Jackson.
    Failled miserably for Lucas.

    11 Oscars - all fields
    1 or 2 tech Oscars ?

    Loved by most Tolkien fans
    SW fan community divided

    What good is saying GL was true to his vision if the end result was rubbish ? And don't even try to say 'then you should discount the OT too', because contrary to LFL and gusher propoganda that GL was in a strip bar in 1977' when an angel got of the podium and gave him the whole story on a bar napkin, the PT was only written in the 90's. When GL was past it.
    Well past it.

    Results, who got better results ?
    Given that as a SW fan TPM had me 'on side' before it even came out, how bad was it to so totally lose me ?
    LOTR I didn't even like much- didn't like the style, but now I love those movies! (Still not better than the OT)

    Jackson = positive
    GL in PT= negative

    I curse him for the very fact there even has to be a divide.

    SHB JR
  4. Darth_Meul Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2004
    star 3
    I curse him for the very fact there even has to be a divide.

    It was unavoidable, it was our destiny :p. The only thing that could be altered is the amount of detractors.
  5. Glorian-Eversea Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2002
    star 2
    When you think about it, its not surprising that Lucas' artistic vision changed so completely.

    Imagine....Lucas in 1977 was a director with some success, but nowhere near Hollywood's top tier. Just like any beginning director, he was just one or two big mistakes away from oblivion. He was well off, sure, but not wealthy by any means.

    Fast forward....

    Lucas in 1999 is esentially a media mogul, reigning over the world's premiere special effects company and his own studio.

    He is worth hundreds of millions and is one of a handful of people who can make a movie independent of Hollywood.

    Imagine how hard it is for George to get someone's honest opinion about ANYTHING! He went from being a rebel to creating his own Empire.

    Glorian
  6. BlueTrooper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2004
    star 3
    "1 or 2 tech Oscars ?"


    Academy Awards

    Star Wars: A New Hope - 7 Oscars, 10 Nominations (Best Picture)
    The Empire Strikes Back - 2 Oscars, 4 Nominations
    Return of the Jedi - 1 Oscar, 3 Nominations

    Episode I: 0 Oscars, 3 Nominations
    Episode II: 0 Oscars, 1 Nomination
    Episode III:



    And this has probably been answered a hundred times, but why is the TPM forum pushed down in the list of forums?
  7. SHB-JR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2000
    star 4
    "It was unavoidable, it was our destiny :p "

    No, that's not true ! It's impossible !!
    What do you reccomend for the reduction in the level of detractors Darth_Meul- bearing in mind that electro shock therapy is illegal in most countries ? ;) :p

    SHB JR
  8. SHB-JR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2000
    star 4
    Uh blue trooper, when I say bad things, like 0 Oscars I?m ONLY talking about the PT ! ;) But ta for the factual back up !
    Screw nominations ! Victory or death !!! :p

    SHB JR
  9. Darth_Meul Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2004
    star 3
    What do you reccomend for the reduction in the level of detractors Darth_Meul - bearing in mind that electro shock therapy is illegal in most countries ?

    :D

    Well, I think you misunderstand me. I meant that in the different ways that Lucas could have made his movies, he might have had different detractor-levels. If he made a film that included a lot of the wishes of some detractors, like huge armies of Sith vs. Jedi, or with the same villain for the whole prequeltrilogy, or having Coruscant on a hill between snowy mountains ("A long time ago, in New Zealand terribly close by ..." ;) ), he would gain some extra fans, but lose again some others. The numbers are undetermined though. I think no matter what Lucas did, there would have been a group detractors. It's just that he might have ended up with a smaller group of detractors if he did certain things differently (story/special-fx/actors/direction), but detractors nonetheless; all films have detractors, even the ones that are widely regarded as classics.
  10. SHB-JR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2000
    star 4
    I don't know that I agree, while I can see your point.
    You can't please all of the people all of the time.
    However, in my own experiance, outside these boards, most people who grew up with the OT find the PT to be badly done.

    I'm a prime example. Die hard SW fan from a young age.
    Went into TPM with all the best will in the world.
    Tried to convince myself it was any good, despite ALL my friends not liking it. It was SW! But one can only lie to oneself for so long !!

    It's the lack of collaberation and restraint. GL as producer and story writer good to go.
    Writing his own scripts as well as directing ? Not so hot.
    GL actually needs to be curbed sometimes- for his own good ! He needed a producer who was not so in awe of him.

    Let's blame Rick Macullum and time how quickly Adam bounds into the thread ! :p

    SHB JR
    Who thinks that the divide can be helped if EP3 is good.......
  11. SLAVE2 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    Episode I: 0 Oscars, 3 Nominations

    Its a crime TPM didn't win sound, sound effects and special effects :mad: And it didn't even get a nomination for costumes did it? Which it should have been a lock for IMO.
  12. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    What was AOTC's Oscar nomination for? And what movie beat AOTC for that particular Oscar?

    I don't think the divide can be bridged. Even if E3 is good beyond our hopes, it will only be good for itself. It can't possibly redeem the PT as a whole. One good movie out of three does not a good trilogy make. All we can hope for with E3 is a decent flick to go with the OT. TPM and AOTC are forever lacking.
  13. SLAVE2 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 5
    One good movie out of three does not a good trilogy make

    But isn't that what you think of the OT? ;) :p
  14. SLR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2002
    star 5
    This weekend I was watching "American Grafitti" on AMC. I was amazed to see how different of quality GL was capable in the 70's. That movie and the original SW show that at one point Lucas was capable of character development and creating characters people can care about.

    Fast foward to the present and we get "Who Framed George Lucas". I was watching AOTC last night (only for the first 1/2 hour, because the movie is so damn bad I can't sit through it). The CGI is just ridiculous and takes you out of the movie. I feel like I am watching "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" because the CGI scenery and characters look so cartoony, that it pulls me out of the movie. Lucas should build sets and use real scenery ana real life people as characters and only supplement it w/ CGI, as Jackson did w/ LOTR. CGI when used as a filler can be a great thing, but when it is used for everything it makes the movie look fake.

    The PT lacks character development and characters we can care about. The dialogue is just absolutely horrendous. I know that these are children movies, as were the OT. The difference is that there was a level of sophistication and refinement in the OT that allowed adults to enjoy those films as well. THe PT lacks any sophistication or refinement. The OT, Lion King, Toy Story, and the like show that you can make children movies that adults can like as well. The PT doesn't come close to doing these things at al..
  15. SHB-JR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2000
    star 4
    I fear you may be right Binary, nothing can save the lost elements of the PT. But if EP3 is good it will save one important thing for me.

    My love for George Lucas.

    The guy was my hero growing up, and I know that there is still good in him, he just needs to let go of his ego ! EP3 can still save him for me, it'll be a case of needing a loooonnngg run up to get flying again.
    If he fails, I'll be forced to say:

    "Then my hero is truly dead..."
    :(

    SHB JR
  16. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    SHBThe guy was my hero growing up, and I know that there is still good in him, he just needs to let go of his ego !

    I know what you mean , SHB. Back in '81 after Raiders I thought this guy is the best, 4 great movies in a row, what a brilliant filmmaker.
    Okay so he changed, we all do.

    The OT was about friendship, and I think this reflected Lucas's life at the time, he had no kids, and he had a number of great friends and collaborators, yeah, they had their arguments - like the OT characters.

    Then the 80's come and Lucas moves on, things go bad personally for him, but by the 90's he's got several kids and his family is main priority, it's family now rather than friends. And that's okay too.
    And it would've been great if he'd gotten this sense of Family into the PT.

    g
  17. RahrKast Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2003
    star 2
    Dear and respected ladies and gentlemen of the Basher Sanctuary!

    I haven't posted anywhere on these boards for a long time, and I would never have dreamed of one day posting in here... enemies' territory, as I was thinking not that long ago.
    Well, that changed... listing the reasons would be pretty difficult, but luckily Ree-Yees made a post unlike everything I had ever read on theforce.net during my three years of lurking. I'll just copy it here, because it PERFECTLY represents everything that I feel also.

    "Man, the OT seems so simple, so lacking of grandieur when compared to the almost pompous epicness of 'Fellowship of the Ring', 'The Two Towers', and 'Return of the King'. I am losing what little interest I have left in SW day by day. I was such a huge fan. I collected everything which had to do with SW. I defended it against any criticism. I loved it. I watched, and re-watched. I have seen the original trilogy more than a thousand times, often spending entire lazy sundays watching all three in a row.

    Yesterday I was planning on watching SW. But it has become such a bleak, almost TV-movie-like experience compared to LOTR. The majesty of it, the impressions, it is all lessened by the sheer power of the Ring, and the utter meaninglessness and failure of the prequel trilogy.

    These factors combined with a healthy dose of the book series 'A Song of Ice and Fire' had led me onto a new path in life; a new life where I do not feel hooked to SW, where I can keep my money in my pocket whenever I see a SW gizmo I didn't already own.

    The prequels, while severely traumatizing my spirit, has also released me from the bonds of the original trilogy, letting me see beyond the simplicity of George Lucas and find better experiences, better alternatives.

    There ARE alternatives to Star Wars, I can see them now..

    I'm proud to say that I am no longer a Star Wars geek, just a former fan. "

    ...That really says everything. Several months ago, I was still completely in denial about the "quality" of the prequels, the EU, even the OT. When lurking, everytime I read a gusher comment, I secretly cheered; whenever someone I had come to know as a basher posted, I felt anger - but also something else, interest. Then I started lurking in the Sanctuary, first to "know thine enemy", but then, after ROTK, suddenly everything became clear to me.

    I had to realize, that deep inside, I really was a basher, too, though not an active one. Plus, I really began to grow to like all of you, just like watching a sitcom ( ;) ). You are all great personalities, plus very fair, passionate, funny and repectful posters and people. Now I finally decided to "become part of the tribe".

    If it is not a problem for anyone, I would very much like to join in the conversations and discussions (though I'm not really a very active poster :( ) of this fine, Minas Tirith-like place.
    Plus, my two favorite people of theforce.net (I'm serious!) post here:
    Darth-Stryphe, I have become completely addicted to Lord Of The Scripts! :D I read it again and again on an almost weekly basis and it still makes me laugh!
    AdamBertocci, not only do you have the immensely funny stuff from your sig ( also a big Lola rennt Fan over here!), but you're also the most pleasant poster I know. :)

    Really sorry that this turned out so long... :p
  18. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    >>>>>>>>>>>The George Lucas of the 1970s was a very different person than the George Lucas of today. Today's Lucas is a hoax and a sham. But the 1970s Lucas was an incredibly admirable creator and director. He worked with his team, and he accepted their help. He worked night and day on the original SW. He worked so hard he was at his wits' end, and he was so stressed that he literally put himself in the hospital, thinking he was having a heart attack. He poured his heart and his soul into that movie, and out of the crucible came The Perfect Movie. Nothing can ever take that away.

    Now he's a pompous buffoon who doesn't know which end is up. But that doesn't change the fact that he used to be very, very cool<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

    Im sorry Binary, but I just dont see how that argument holds up. Who says you have to be so stressed out to the point that you need to be hospitalized in order to make a good movie? Who says you have to be a James Cameron-like butthole to be a good director? ALL people learn how to deal with stress more effectively as they get older. Besides, I would imagine that the bulk of the stress that Lucas felt came from the fact that ANH was just months away from release and they had virtually no effects shots done. ILM is a wee bit more sophisticated these days. Lucas had to go through the stress of creating his own business in order to create the effects that he wanted. For the prequels, it had been well established for 20 years.

    And by the way, even during ANH, he tried to control everything. Kurtz himself comments that he would piss off the lighting people because Lucas would be telling them how to do thier job. I imagine that is why he decided not to direct episodes 5 and 6.
  19. Pizza-the-Hutt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 4
    Im sorry Binary, but I just dont see how that argument holds up. Who says you have to be so stressed out to the point that you need to be hospitalized in order to make a good movie?

    I don't know I think that stress does certainly help a person to produce the best they possibly can, maybe not always but a lot of the time. Especially if that stress is caused because you're just setting out and have a point to prove.
  20. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    Man, the OT seems so simple, so lacking of grandieur when compared to the almost pompous epicness of 'Fellowship of the Ring', 'The Two Towers', and 'Return of the King'.

    Of course it's lacking in grandeur.

    Do you think Lucas went into ANH hoping to make a big epic? It's such a simple story. A fairy tale.

    Criticizing SW (and especially the OT) for being simple and not having enough epic grandeur is like criticizing Taco Bell for not having Chinese food. You want Chinese food, you can go somewhere else: SW provides a different sort of menu.


    ANYWAY
    Meul is correct, Tolkien ignored the bulk of his "no men", and did things his way more often than not.
    The book publisher's influence was more of a studio decision (if Tolkien was a director) and not an on-set confidante. It's not as if the publisher was helping out refine every page. But they did refuse to publish one long book.
    The LOTR books are not a team effort, it's Tolkien through and through. And while this has resulted in books that many people find unreadable and unfathomable, in the end, I think he made the right decision, and history seems to have seen that out.



    Rick McCallum loves you!
  21. JohnWilliams00 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2002
    star 4
    About the stress:

    If you're not sweating, you're not really working.
  22. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Welcome, RahrKast!

    GL was my hero in the 70's, too. Inspired me to write.

    Not much else to add today, except I meant to be here yesterday, but it took longer than I thought to defrag the ole compy!

    So glad I still remember how to do stuff from DOS!

    On the differences between LOTR and the OT, the spareness of the sets, costumes, etc., really helped the OT be what it was. I don't think the opulent yet grungy style of LOTR is necessary for the OT to be special.

    The original trilogy had an epic feel to it, the mythology was there beneath the surface for those who wanted to dig deeper, but it worked as a simple space/fantasy story as well.

    The PT is just too much "over the top" as far as costumes, aliens, cgi, etc. And the mythology is "in your face" so to speak, which is why it doesn't work as well as it did in the OT. No subltetly. (sp?)
  23. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    Lucas certainly wasn't my hero in the seventies.




    I wasn't born yet. :p


    But I can say this about GL and SW.

    Y'know the shot in ANH where Biggs and Porkins team up on that one tower, then split away?

    During my watching of that shot on the big screen (Special Edition with nifty effects, thank YOU very much) in January 1997, I decided I want to be a filmmaker.

    Well, here I am.
    (Hell, I'm shooting a grant film with a big crew and not-as-big-a-budget-as-I'd-like in a week and a half.)

    Should I declare Lucas my inspiration for filmmaking? Probably not. He just found that shot in some old war movie, put it in his animatic, and handed it off to effects guys to make it. Then he either approved it, or sent it back. Then 20 years later he fixed it with magic CG toys.

    And it's not as if that's my favorite shot in the movie or anything. That's just when the thought entered my mind. For all I know I was inspired by somebody coughing, or the way the theater smelled at that moment.

    I'll give Star Wars the benefit of the doubt and say it inspired me to be a filmmaker. Lucas, I don't know.

    BUT!

    It is partly because of advances Lucas has helped spearhead that allow me to be a filmmaker today! Nonlinear editing at consumer prices, without which I could never have put together my first flicks? The push for digital video so that everyone can make a professional-looking-movie?

    When Lucas talks with excitement about putting filmmaking in the hands of the people, with anyone being able to make a movie with a consumer camera and a Macintosh... he's getting ME excited. Uncle George is watchin' out for my interests.

    So THAT'S where I start clapping for Lucas the person, and not the "Lucas" as a nebulous concept back in 1976.

    Fight the good fight, George!

    (And if you're reading, is there time for me to cameo in Episode III? I won't reveal spoilers... I promise)




    AdamBertocci, not only do you have the immensely funny stuff from your sig ( also a big Lola rennt Fan over here!), but you're also the most pleasant poster I know.
    Thanks :) But I guess you've never seen me moderate [face_devil]


    Rick McCallum loves you!
  24. jabba_the_nut Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2003
    star 2
    Funny- I laughed at it because I loved it. Also, it was the first and only time I've seen a film in the cinema where the audience applauded (except for when I saw it again a couple of days later.) That just doesn't happen in England very often. (Mind you, I don't go tto eh cinema very often.)


    My thoughts exactly. I really regret seeing AOTC only once in theaters, as it really made the experience. I've never seen/heard an audience react as positively to a movie as they did to the Yoda fight.

    Switching gears:

    It's sort of a pity that we don't seem to have any real hardcore LOTR movie bashers in here, 'cuz I love those guys. I don't mean people that simply don't like LOTR, or "GL > PJ u l00z3r" guys, I mean people that grew up on Tolkein's book, were horrified when they heard that it was being turned into a trilogy of movies, and then went on to absolutely loathe Peter Jackson's adaptations. They're not like prequel bashers... they don't think PJ has lost his touch, or that he's been sliding by a bit on the accomplishments of others, or that he got lazy. They think he's the freaking devil, a talentless hack cashing in on somebody else's creation.

    I did walk out of FOTR thinking: "hey, that's what the SW prequels should be like". But it didn't really last, and watching TTT, which I really disliked, ruined it altogether (ROTK was IMO an improvement). I can certainly sympathize with the fact that some ex-SW fans prefer LOTR to the prequels, but to me, I'll go with the general wisdom that they are actually a little too difficult to compare.

    Like many of the truths we cling to, it really depends on our own point of view... but I have enjoyed the prequels better. To be honest, I find some of the harsher criticisms of LOTR (as alluded to above) working their way into my brain... it does sort of bother me the way PJ's treated the story. To cite a random example: the Saruman/Gandalf fight in FOTR (one of my favorite parts of the movies) really was, to me, about as silly as the Yoda/Dooku fight. Difference is, the Yoda/Dooku fight was supposed to be over-the-top and fun, while Saruman spinning Gandalf through the air like in a Jackie Chan movie was, I guess, supposed to be serious.

    Well, when in doubt, I'd rather be watching Excalibur. Now there's a fantasy movie I can really sink my teeth into.

    (cue "Jackson > Boorman" posts...)
  25. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    Of course it's lacking in grandeur.
    Do you think Lucas went into ANH hoping to make a big epic? It's such a simple story. A fairy tale.


    I think ANH has bags of grandeur - that opening shot, the wonderful vistas of Tatooine, particulalry 3PO walking past that skeleton of some huge alien creature. The twin sunset. Approaching the Death Star, the scale of that thing was so mind boggling. John Barry's astonishing sets. And that space battle and particularly the race down the trench.

    And it seems pretty epic to me - a whole galaxy under threat of a massive Empire with the ability to destroy entire planets. A space battle , the like of which we'd never seen before, in which the fate of an entire galaxy is decided.
    A myriad of robots, creatures, vehicles etc. Grand landscapes, grand sets. How much more epic could it be?

    Nor do i think the story is simple, it's easy to follow, but it's far from simple, it takes in so many genres, westerns, pirates, SF, Samurai, it could've been an unholy mess but it works beautifully.

    Young farmboy saves galaxy, sounds like a simple idea, but how to make it work, make it believable, give the scenario a foundation, great characters, a mythology, etc. etc. that makes it work - that's hard.

    g
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