Amph Batman R.I.P (No Raven, you aren't allowed)

Discussion in 'Archive: SF&F: Books and Comics' started by Soontir-Fel, Jul 15, 2008.

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  1. Soontir-Fel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    [image=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f5/Batman_676.jpg]

    What is it?

    From Wiki

    "At an unknown location, a group of international supervillains are gathered together under the behest of the Black Glove, led by Dr. Simon Hurt, the man responsible for the isolation chamber experiment that Batman underwent and the creation of the three replacement Batmen. They are planning a danse macabre for Batman and arrange for the sending of an invitation to the villainous Joker."

    Essentially, the Batman is being broken again. But this time they are not wearing him down and breaking his body, but breaking his mind and his spirit. There is an organization called the Black Glove, lead by a man (woman?) of the same name, who are dedicated to bringing down the Batman and all he cares about. They know all his secrets and may be the "Ultimate Villain" who have always been behind the scenes waiting to pounce. The Ultimate Villian, who knows all of what Bats can do and the one thing that he has no defense against?

    What can the Black Glove do?

    Years ago, Batman went into an isolation chamber experiment. The result left him delusional and paranoid and dreaming that Robin was killed. He quit being Batman for a short time. Simon Hurt, the doctor behind the experiments, used the results to make 3 other Batman, twisted and evil, to take Bats role if he should ever fall. Somewhere along the line Hurt decided that murder and mayhem was more his style and now seems to be the spokesman for the Black Glove organization. He also impritened subliminal messages (Zur-En-Arrh) in to Batman that completely shuts him down. He also know who Batman is. So far he has broken into the Batcave, beaten Alfred to hell, shot up Bruce with Heroin and Crystal Meth, put Nightwing in Arkham, and chased Robin to who knows where. And this seems to just be the start of his plans.
    And the Joker is about to get involved

    Who is the Black Glove?

    That is where the secret lies. Remember, this is not a Jeph Loeb "mystery". The main villain will not be someone easy to guess or completly out of left field (although it might seem that way). It will be someone who we have clues about, who if we only saw what was hidden we could see what was coming. I have some guesses though.

    Alfred: Yes and no. Yes because it is Alfred and no because it isn't. Confused? Get ready.
    In Morrison's first arc "Batman and Son" Batman makes a reference to an "Aunt Agatha". Aunt Agatha was a character who took Alfred's place in the 60s. Alfred was believed dead at the time, but was actually a supervillain known as the Outsider, someone with powers and knowledge of Batman and Robin and who wanted to destroy them through his organization. Eventually Alfred was brought out of it and remembers nothing of the event. Could the Black Glove be something he organized during his time as a villain and doesn't remember it? There have been multiple hints at Alfred being the Black Glove, but could it be so elaborate that he doesn't know it?

    Joe Chill's Son: In "Joe Chill in Hell" we find out that Joe Chill has a son. This seems superfluous knowledge but could be quite valuable. Is it a clue? Who knows? The entire issue was affected by Batman dying of heart failure at the time. Any of the issue could be wrong or misleading.

    Azrael: But he's dead! The body was never found, and Rip Hunter's board has shown the name and implication of him being alive in two issues of Booster Gold. Also R.I.P is promising a mysterious "Return" of someone. Could it be Azrael, and could he potentially be the son of Joe Chill? After all all of Azreal's history could be made up by Order of Saint Dumas.

    Thomas Wayne: What? Yes! Evidence in a recent Batman issue implies that Thomas is not the saint that Bruce things he is (but this could be evidence planted by the Black Glove). Could he be alive? And plotting against his own son. At one point Dr. Hurt puts on the original batsuit ( the one Thomas wore to a party). Clue or red herring?

    Batman: A man dedicated to stopping crime. A o
  2. soitscometothis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2003
    star 5
    Joe Chill's Son: In "Joe Chill in Hell" we find out that Joe Chill has a son. This seems superfluous knowledge but could be quite valuable. Is it a clue? Who knows? The entire issue was affected by Batman dying of heart failure at the time. Any of the issue could be wrong or misleading.

    I don't follow Batman anymore, but I do remember that Joe Chill's son, Joe Jr., was briefly the Reaper (Batman:Full Circle). He didn't seem smart enough to be a master criminal.
  3. Soontir-Fel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    Thankfully Year Two is non-canon. because it was terrible.
  4. Raven Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 1998
    star 6
    Unfortunately, Batman R.I.P is canon, and worse.


    I'd honestly rather see All Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder be canon. At least it's entertaining.
  5. -polymath- SFF:F/TV Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2007
    star 4
    I don't follow comics too intensely. But if this story arc ends Bruce Wayne's run as Batman, that'd be a shame.
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Actually, I think Morrison hinted that the Reaper might return down the line. I'd have to find the exact interview where it was said, but there is indication that he's coming back.
  7. Hoojib_Wrangler Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 2006
    I'm a big fan of Morrison, but this one is leaving me cold. I want to like it, the way I still want to like ELO.
  8. FlareStorm Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2000
    star 6
    I remember seeing Azrael's name somewhere, was it on one of those chalkboards in Rip's lab? I forget
  9. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    The Batman issues so far haven't done anything for me- I get that they're trying to make Bruce think he's nuts (or make him realize he actually is nuts), but it's been rather dry and more confusing to the reader than anything else.

    Strangely enough, the Detective issue that just came out last week, has nothing to do with the previous 3 Batman issues, shy of a reference to that chick he's with. It's Batman-on-patrol-as-usual, though, but the Hush backstory and contrast makes things more grounded which gives the reader more footing. Hopefully the rest of the storyline will be able to continue recovering from the poor start.
  10. Sith_Sensei__Prime Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2000
    star 5
    As usual, I'm in the minority. I like the R.I.P storyline (from what I read, which is the first couple of issues). Batman is questioning his mental capacity and Robin is gone thanks to the run in with Bat's son. I'm curious to see how Damian and Talia will play into this.
  11. FlareStorm Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2000
    star 6
    All the last big Batman runs have been "who's the villian" guessing games.
  12. Soontir-Fel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    Yeah, but when Jeph Leob writes a mystery, it's only a mystery in the term that "Hey you have no clues who it is so when we revel it, it will be amazing"
  13. Soontir-Fel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    [image=http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/842/comicbox132bcolo2bfinaluj7.jpg]

    So the Robin RIP issue was really really good.
  14. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    Will Tim be the new Batman?
  15. Raven Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 1998
    star 6
    He'd have to grow a few feet first. Long term, if anyone takes up the role of Batman I hope it's Tim - Dick is Nightwing, Jason isn't suitable for the role - but that day is definitely not yet here.
  16. Soontir-Fel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    Unfortunately, the only way he's going to grow is if he actually becomes Batman. It's been 18 years since he's been introduced and he's grown about 2 inches and 1 year.
  17. Sith_Sensei__Prime Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2000
    star 5
    I believe Damian will take the Mantle of Batman. I thought Batman #666 was a pretty cool potential future.

    [image=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/Bm666.PNG/180px-Bm666.PNG]
  18. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    The story following RIP will be called Fight for the Cowl, and the promo for it looks great.
  19. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    Preview of the next issue (679) is up at Newsarama and it looks ******** awesome, Batman totally lost it.
  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    According to Rich Johnston at Lying In The Gutters and take it with a grain of salt, at some point in the near future, both Batman and Detective would go on hiatus. While Nightwing and Robin are retitled as Red Robin and Batman & Robin for a time.
  21. EmeraldSpeedster Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2008
    star 1
    At one of the panels with Dan on the future of Batman, I remember nearly everyone in the room, myself included, coming to the conclusion that the only one truly fit to wear the cowl was Dick Grayson, and that some day he should take over the position as the caped crusader. But despite that, everyone also agreed on the fact that such a day should never ever be shown to readers. While Dick is perfect for the position, it just shouldn't ever come into our view for a few reasons:

    1. It would never live up to our expectations
    2. No death is worthy of the pedestal to which we have elevated Bruce Wayne
    3. It would end up going back to Bruce someday and we'd all feel like Dick was mistreated as such
    4. Nightwing still has his own journeys ahead of him
    5. It would demand the evolution of the next generation to the plate, which is simply too much for readers and the company to handle
    6. You also can't kill Dick Grayson, and so the point of generational advancement is foolish (After all, they should all be 90 by now)

    All this boiled down to the fact that Dick Grayson, despite all the crap his Robin days might get him, is one of the most treasured characters in comic books. He is practically the only one who we have actually watched grow up. We have seen his evolution from boy to teen to young adult to full fledged man. Besides all that, Dick Grayson is notoriously the only one (maybe not the only one anymore now that certain people are back) that everyone trusts. And no one can trust the Batman, isn't that part of the point of The Dark Knight's message? While Superman would trust Bruce with his life, the truth is that he can never actually trust him with anything beyond that, because the symbol feeds off of the power of darkness. Even Bruce can't trust himself, which is one of the few good things that R.I.P. is helping to illustrate at this point.

    I like Grant, he has written revolutionary stuff. Everywhere he goes he takes an incredible vision with him. But the vision often ends with him. And sometime it perverts and pollutes the established world around him, not just for the writers but for the fans themselves. And I know that characters have to change, and that the status quo must be eradicated and so on and so forth. But certain truths should not be violated, even by someone who has gained so much intellectual credit in many fanboy circles as has Grant. One of those truths is that Bruce Wayne is the man we know as Batman. I don't believe that even DC editorial, who have earned a bad reputation in recent years (an image which to be honest I don't even agree with), would be foolish enough to actually kill off Bruce Wayne. If they do, they'll lose stalwart supporters like myself, which given the decreasing crowd of continuing supporters, they need. I buy every bat book that comes out. I even followed along with every issue of Countdown. While I still pick up my Marvels, at this point the ratio is unfairly tipped towards DC. If Bruce Wayne dies, they know they'll lose people like me, first from the bat books and then from any other book out there that doesn't read Geoff Johns on the title (a fair number, but still...) and someday his load will have to lighten. And that'll be a permanent cut from the fanbase. I really hope I don't have to walk away from it, because I want them to have a better answer than just killing him off. And not just "Oh, his soul is tortured and so a part of him has died" or any of that stuff. I was good with Grant's Xorn stuff. If it plays out like that I'll bite and buy. And then they just need to make sure the aftermath doesn't go haywire like Xorn, part 2 did.
  22. Soontir-Fel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2001
    star 5
    Luckily, Morrison is on Batman for a while after RIP so they can't "New X-Men" it right away.
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Bruce Wayne isn't going to die. You're taking the title too literally. As Morrison said, this is worse than death. More than likely what this means is Bruce Wayne will quit being Batman for a time. Mainly because who and what Batman has represented will no longer fit what Bruce takes away from this experience. If Thomas Wayne really was a rat bastard, then that throws everything that Batman has ever stood for right out the window. Think about it, Bruce Wayne has modeled Batman off the fact that his parents were innocent victims of a brutal crime, in a corrupt city. But what if his father was a sadistic creep who drugged his mother, had wild orgies and tried to kill his family because he was sick and tired of them. Imagine what the truth would do to Bruce. Perhaps this is what he found out when he had undergone the experiments with Simon Hurt. Perhaps this is why after he went to the Ten Eyed Man and had his tribe "cut out" Batman, that he had to go to Nanda Parbat and do the isolation in the cave. Bruce had known the truth, but blocked it out and created a false set of memories to hide from it. To justify his father's betrayal.

    Or what if Bruce has always been insane and it's now coming to light. And the last effort to stop him requires the full and total removal of the Batman personas. Or Bruce becomes so insane that Dick and Tim have to lock him up in Arkham, for his own good. Imagine the idea of seeing your parents killed when you were eight. There's no way that he could've remained sane all this time. That's what I'm taking from this story. If Bruce was always crazy, it explains his erratic behavior over the years and why he would dress up as a bat. Other superheroes aside, you'd have to be pretty crazy to do that.
  24. EmeraldSpeedster Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2008
    star 1
    Bruce Wayne isn't going to die. You're taking the title too literally.

    I wasn't meaning to work just off of the concept of his death as the finale to the series. I get that it is unlikely that Bruce will actually die, but more metaphorically die. I guess my objection is really that I don't want to have to see Bruce walk through yet another personal crisis quite like the one we're having to go through now. Challenge your heroes? Good stories. Drown them in month after month of events that would usually drive them to a quick suicide? Just as tortuous on readers as the character. He sees his parents murdered. He watches the murder of the Graysons. Barbara crippled by the Joker. Jason Todd killed. His back is broken. Contagion eradicates the population. No Man's Land shatters Gotham. Luthor of all people is the one to 'save' Gotham. Brother Eye goes crazy and tries to destroy metahumans. Relationship after relationship tanks horribly. Dick Grayson leaves him. Numerous allies fall in battle. It just seems like a constant string of how Batman's life is utterly miserable. And I get that as a thematic component too. But the whole attempt to one up every tragedy that came before it is just exhausting. His will to fight is shattered over and over again and it is just tiring and sometimes quite boring. Even if Bruce Wayne does live, Batman shall, for a time, die. And it might make good Grant storytelling opportunities. I'm just not sure I want to read them. Especially given the effect it might have on Dick Grayson. And if one of his closest allies turns out to be the true evil, I probably won't make it through the issue. Some elements in comic books, like death and betrayal, have been overdone to a sort of extreme point. Martian Manhunter dead! Meh, not as effective as the Barry Allen death, or even Blue Beetle's not to long ago. Traitor in the inner circle of Titans! Again? I'm not saying I'm out, because I've already stuck beside these stories most of my life. But somewhere along the line, there is a breaking point, even if Grant does have a record of writing some extreme stories. It wouldn't be the first time I gave up on one of my favorite titles because of contrived stories and outrageous offenses to the basic attributes of the character.
  25. Raven Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 1998
    star 6
    Alan Moore and Grant Morrison write similar stories in that they both write stories that go further than anyone else writing in the genre would do. The difference is, I think that Alan Moore asks himself "What would be the best story I could write?" and Grant Morrison asks "What would be the most shocking thing I could write?"
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