Amph Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice

You...liked Dark Knight Rises?

 

Say whaaaaaa?

 

I like Rises, despite it's flaws. But to say it's the best live action Batman? It's not even in the top two of that trilogy.

 

Oh certainly. It's by far the best of the Nolan trilogy.

 

it's a great movie ! it isn't what people expected or wanted perhaps, but i find it emotionally involving and terrific filmmaknig

 

Can someone in the fan club explain this position?

I do understand that Nolan was attempting to do something a bit different with the final film in his trilogy. But I also feel that from a thematic and story-telling perspective, there were a lot more holes in this one than the previous films. What did you all enjoy so much?

 

Yeah...

*jots down the names on his loony-bin van pickup list*

 

there's a lot of holes in all these movies today. I mean think of TDK....the joker can basically go anywhere and do anything and no one can catch him unless he wants to, and he always has 2 backup plans

i didn't like that they went back to the league of shadows in the 3rd movie, but i thought Wayne's emotional journey with the directing and score really were strong. i wish there had been more of them too, but i also liked that he was able to get out and not have his whole life consumed by being Batman.

 

You can fly a fleet of Star Destroyers and a couple of Death Stars too through the plot holes and gaps of logic Rises has.

Guys, c'mon. I'll pretend I didn't read the last page of this thread because it makes y'all look bad and you should feel bad.

 

Uh, I've said for a few years that I liked "The Dark Knight Rises".

I enjoy it because Nolan decided to go in a different direction from what we thought it would be, which was ending one storyline and leaving it for another director to continue and instead present an ending. I like that Bruce has to reassess Batman when he realizes why he lost to Bane and is failing to climb the pit, has to do with needing fear. That he insisted on going without fear for so long, that he didn't understand that he needed fear to win. To succeed. I like that Bane destroyed the cover-up that Jim and Bruce put in place and that it did have the consequences that they feared would happen. I like that John Blake begins to find himself in the same boat as Bruce and ultimately will take over as Batman, because Bruce couldn't do it forever. I also like that it tied back into the first film with Ra's and Talia.

Yes, the film has flaws. No film is without sin. That doesn't mean that you cannot have fun watching it.

 

Yes, they all have plot holes. However, I feel like there are significantly more--and they are more problematic--in the third film. For instance, from a plot standpoint, it's never quite clear why Gotham deserves destruction any longer. From a character perspective, the sort of fanatical loyalty we see Bane inspire is neither explained nor earned at any point. For all the talk of him purportedly being a strong charismatic leader with an inspiring philosophy, he never actually makes any coherent point through the course of the film.

 

Rises always felt like the first real Batman movie of the trilogy. Begins was origin story, Dark Knight was a good movie... but really I felt it could just be any terrorist movie without the Joker or Batman and the story would be the same. Rises had Batman, a Catwoman who actually was just a really good thief and wasn't some weird magic cat resurrected lady, you had Bane, Talia al Ghul, a Gotham City destroying plot, Scarecrow was there... it was great.

 

Because Talia wants revenge for her father's death and it wasn't enough to just kill Bruce, but she wanted to destroy Gotham and break him, knowing that he failed to save it. That's why Bane put him in the pit after injuring him, so that he would be broken emotionally and mentally.

Bane hired a number of mercenaries to carry out his wishes. His points are simple, the city was holding down the poor and working class individuals. Even going so far as to deny due process to the criminal element in order to protect the wealthy and elite. By exposing the lie about Two-Face and freeing the criminals from Blackgate, the city is now more equal with the criminals living up to the feared image people had. That in time the people will adjust and accept the new, natural order of things. Then they'll be nuked to high heaven and that will be that.

 

Yes, but those answers don't actually make sense.

1. Sure I can understand one person wanting revenge. But this is supposed to be an international organization that has existed for centuries, of which Ras was really only a coincidental one time leader/member. Why should they care about revenge, when it doesn't fit their goals?

2. Releasing criminals does nothing to help poor people. Nor did lying about Two-Face protect anyone from prosecution.

3. Even if #2 were not true, killing them all helps no one, and has no real point. It at best refutes the idea he was sincerely trying to help anyone. So what was the point, actually? What philosophical under-pinning does this have.

4. Lots of people have mercenaries. Bane, with a mere request, convinced someone to commit suicide by staying on a crashing plane just so that there would be the right number of bodies. That's far beyond normal devotion. And it is completely unearned.

 

1. Talia now leads the League of Shadows. They follow her. I never got the idea that it was a democratic organization
2. It's meant to be an anarchist, anti-authority message brought out by the baddies.
3. The League of Shadows never actually helps anyone. That was established in "Begins." They have their own twisted sense of justice, which most people, including Batman, doesn't subscribe to.
4. As a member of the League of Shadows, your devotion to it's commanders begins with your initiation into the League. If you're a grunt, and your commander tells you to stay, you stay.

 

1. Alright, but it's not a hereditary monarchy either. So how does she become leader when she A)doesn't agree with their goals B)was rebellious, leading her and her boyfriend to get kicked out in the first place?
2. Killing everyone with a nuclear weapon isn't really anarachist either. None of this makes sense.
3. So then how do you explain Talia's own behavior?

 

This isn't the League of Shadows. This is Bane and his mercenaries. There may be a few who carried on, but all of these guys aren't what served Ra's. The goal is to finish what Ra's started, which both Bane and Talia say.

BANE: "I am the League of Shadows and I am here to fulfill Ra's al Ghul's destiny."

TALIA: "I honor my father by finishing his work. Vengeance against the man who killed him is simply a reward for my patience."

In the former, the inmates force the wealthy elite to be poor and serves as punishment for their greed and avarice. Now, everyone is equal in the eyes of Bane. Many of those who were locked away were poor criminals who did what they did because how they were denied opportunities that the wealthy elite benefited from. When the economy went bad and went into recovery, Gotham was divided into two classes and it was the poor, who took the brunt of everything. As to Two-Face, remember that it is the Harvey Dent Act that resulted in crime being virtually eliminated and Blackgate being overcrowded. That the due process rights, such as a fair trial and even parole being denied for the most minor of offenses, that resulted in the Gotham in this film. Jim knew that if the city learned that Harvey became a criminal himself, that the people would lose hope and everyone that was arrested due to the capture of Lau, their arrests would be overturned. It wasn't about protecting from prosecution, but about overstepping their bounds.

He wasn't intending to help people.

BANE: "Home. Where I learned the truth about despair. As will you. There is a reason that this prison is the worst hell on earth... Hope. Every man who has rotted here over the centuries has looked up to the light.and imagined climbing to freedom. So easy. So simple. And, like shipwrecked men turning to sea water from uncontrollable thirst many have died trying. I learned here that there can be no true despair without hope. So as I terrorize Gotham I will feed its people hope to poison their souls. I will let them believe they can survive....so that you can watch them clamber over each other to stay in the sun. You could watch me torture entire city and then, when you have truly understood the depths of your failure we will fulfill Ra's al Ghul's destiny. We will destroy Gotham. And then when it is done and Gotham is ashes, then you have my permission to die."

How do you know it is unearned? Does it have to be shown that he became top dog? Ra's was able to inspire that loyalty and we didn't see it.

She never said that she disagreed with their goals. She disagreed with her father for kicking Bane out, because of his own eternal shame for not doing anything to help his wife and Talia. And again, the film presents it as not the League, but as a group of mercenaries. Hence they're all using guns and there are those who are taken out easily by Bruce, whereas the League members put up a good fight against him. Hell, these guys are captured by the GCPD, whereas the League would have walked all over them.

 

Ah. I see there are the same arguments being made about The Dark Knight Rises I saw back in 2012. My input: I love it. In fact, I love all of The Dark Knight Trilogy.

I also love the Ultimate Edition of Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. I had my issues with the theatrical cut back in March, but I still mostly liked the movie even then. The true version of the film fixed said issues, as in the editing and pacing. Bonus points for adding more Clark Kent scenes and a bit more clarity in terms of the characters' motivations.

 

Bane punches through a chunk of cement while trying to kill Batman, it's really hard for me to actively hate Dark Knight Rises when stuff like that happens.

 

Rises is a fascinating failure, insofar as it has all of the breadth and depth of Nolan's otherwise fine filmography--and my God, he's had a great run--but nothing manages to congeal. Nearly ever scene feels off...and I still can't put my finger on why that is. Oftentimes, the movie feels as leaden and harried as the Bruce Wayne of the first act. I'd be interested to know what Nolan's state was throughout pre-production. Did he genuinely want to continue and conclude the story, or did the studio compel him to return?

Still, having burned-out on the Marvel franchise with Avengers 2, I shouldn't speak ill of a superhero flick that at least tries to tell a consequential story (A Tale of Two Cities, no less). And there's a good chance Ben Affleck will bring some of his Gone Baby Gone/The Town/Argo magic to his stab at Batman.

 

I don't want any spoilers. The Uk has to wait until August 1st for the release!

Does the Ultimate Cut also include a Theatrical cut?