Discussion in 'Archive: SF&F: Books and Comics' started by DarkPrince, Jan 4, 2006.
Dark Knight Returns & The Dark Knight Strikes Back nuff said.
I wouldn't say that Superman isn't flawed or doesn't have flaws. Currently he's doubting his place in the world as a hero. His wife Lois was shot in an effort to drag him into a war, when he normally stays out of them. As Clark Kent, he was demoted at the Daily Planet. He's disturbed by Wonder Woman for killing Maxwell Lord, which looks bad for heroes in general. His best friend Pete Ross was accused of being Ruin and his other friend, Emil Hamilton is Ruin. Hell, he was even in therapy for a while.
Ahem, Elseworlds. If you're going to drag Elseworlds into it, I'd point out the sheer immortality of Kingdom Come Superman (and not just as a former HeroClix player)
I grew up practically worshiping Batman. Didn't matter what version.
I think that hero wise, Batman is better because he is human, but Superman takes the cake because of the mythological aspect and, to be perfectly honest, Superman is the kind of hero we'd rather have.
I mean, a real, live Superman would have stopped 9/11 and brought Osama to jail "until he can get a fair trial" (Superman: the Movie) all in a day's work or so.
By the way, I'm writing a Star Wars/Harry Potter/Superman crossover. It's called The Darkest Hour and can be found here:http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=23873317&brd=10476.
Well that's the problem right there. DC had been trying to create flaws for Superman to try and get the readers behind him more, like they already are with BATMAN. People identify with Batman because he's all of us. He's our worries, our fears, he's what we all could be or feel at one time. Problem is, that's not Superman. Superman is everything we would like to be in a fantastic sense. Most fans don't want to see Superman in therapy talking about his feelings, they want to see him fly and beat up Lex Luthor and do everything the common man cannot. Infinite Crisis addressed these problems with the character of Superman head on and from what I've seen in "Up, Up and Away!" they're putting the "Super" back in Superman.
Personally, I'm far more a Batman guy. But that's probably obvious already.
Batman is a jerk, but I still root for him sometimes because he's still only human... (Green Arrow > Batman, IMO)
At this point, I'd pull for Supes, simply because now, he's seen what its like to be "normal" and I think he will appreciate his gifts more now...
i would really like to read the comics with Batman Vs. Superman sometime. anyone know where i could get a copy of DKR or that other one w/ both of them in it if there even still available to buy?
Both Dark Knight books can be found at your local comic shop or in bookstores like Barnes & Noble. Kingdom Come is being re-released for the 10th anniversary. Though they don't physically fight, they are at odds with each other mentally and morally.
As to 9/11, Superman could only do so much. He would have to be aware that both planes were going to crash into the towers, and be able to divert both. He could've missed one, but got the other. But once the planes crashed, he couldn't stop the towers from falling. The entire JLA, JSA, the Teen Titans, the Outsiders, the Great Ten and Doom Patrol would have to do this. Or at best, all Earth based GL's. As to finding bin Laden, he would have to have the entire support of the UN and Checkmate. Superman's supposed to be neutral when it comes to government matters. The Outsiders and Doom Patrol are covert enough that they don't need it, but Superman and the JLA do. At best, the Justice League Elite would have to be reformed to do this. Otherwise, yeah, he and Kara would go looking. Along with the JLA and the others.
I haven't read DC in a while, but I love Batman because, to me, he's always had a grayer, shadier side than Superman.
Hands down Batman! Superman is just too unbelievable for me, he has 1 weakness which is a mineral foreign to this world, he's super strong and can move incredibly fast, he has x-ray vision and on top of that can hecan fly! Batman on the other hand has no powers and relies only on his brains, wits and athletic ability, not to mention all his expensive gadgets! By far he is the more belivable hero and the more talented seeing as he has the no-power handicap.
Correction. Superman has three weaknesses.
-Kryptonite created from the radioactive core of Krypton being altered by the explosion. It comes in a varity of colors, so far. Green can kill and Black can bring out the darker aspects. In the past Red could bring about different side effects and Gold could make him mortal.
-Red Sun solar energy. It can remove his powers as it pushes out the yellow solar energy in his body, making him mortal.
-Supernatural magic. The Spectre, Dr. Fate, Blaze, Santanus, Captain Marvel, Asmodel and Mxyzpltk.
On the plus, there are those who are powerful enough to hurt him without any of these. Darksied, Doomsday, Imperix, Wonder Woman, Green Lanterns, General Zod, Lobo, Massacare, Maxima, Hulk, Juggernaut, Mongol, Thor, Venom, J'onn J'onzz, M'Onel, Livewire, Bizzaro, Captain Atom and others have hurt him. Hell, he's been killed.
He's gone without powers before and done pretty well. During the year without his powers, he excelled as a reporter. Managing to take down Lex Luthor, which finally proved that he was not the saint he pretended to be. Defied Intergang with a mere bluff. Fought the hoards of Mongol's army with nothing more than two blasters.
These are my feelings as well.
The interesting thing about Batman and Superman is that they are both somewhat deluded about their identities.
Superman was born with his powers, born Superman, and his costume, the cape with the S, is actually his cloths because they are what he was wrapped in as a baby. Clark Kent is the illusion that he pretends to be. The reporter's outfit and glasses are a costume used to fool people into hiding who he truly is.
(For a better summary of this theory see Kill Bill volume 2)
Batman was born Bruce Wayne, and so that is who he truly is. He had to go through a lot of training and tragedy to become Batman, the cape and body armor is his costume. But he has said several times in the comics that Batman is who he is and Bruce Wayne is just an illusion and a lie.
Just a random thing I've noticed.
Haha that's almost Carradine's exact dialogue. That was strange.
Batman is infinitely more interesting than Superman. Supes is almost flawless and he just doesn't have the great personality the Bruce has.
Batman always wins in my heart.
The Kill Bill dialogue is fine, but not a wholely accurate reflection of the character. Clark Kent was raised to feel as if he is a human. The Clark Kent persona in Metropolis, was designed to fool people into thinking he is an ordinary man. The Superman persona is a creation that is loosely based on his Smallville roots, but exaggerated to keep people who know him from figuring it out.
The speech that Bill makes is actually based on an essay. So this was not some grand idea that the character came up with or Tarantino for that matter.
Even when he has lost his powers, Clark Kent still believes in fighting evil. This is a result of the Kents teaching him to use his abilities to their fullest and to not shirk from his responsibilities. On eight separate occassions when he has been powerless, he has done his best without his powers. He's had to get creative.
Batman, on the other hand, is pretty much crazy. In a sense. Yes, he claims that he is Batman and that Bruce Wayne is a lie. His justifcation is that when his parents died, the boy that he was died and the early stages of Batman was born. He just didn't have the name yet. The Bruce Wayne seen in public is one who, like Clark Kent's public persona, is designed to keep people from thinking he's Batman. This is best exemplified in the animated series where Kevin Conroy goes back and forth with his voice.
However, this might've been undone with Infinite Crisis and the new editorial team. It depends on if Grant Morrison and Paul Dini retain that aspect.
I was reading an interview with Brandon Routh. The way he saw it, there are three separate versions of the character. Kal-el is the identity he was born with. Whatever the influences on his life this is the person he is inside. Clark Kent is a persona he puts on to keep people from thinking he might be Superman. Superman is yet another persona, a symbol he wears along with the cape and "S" shield. Superman represents all that is good and true, and is meant to inspire that good in others.
Which is true, going off the movies. That keeps it simple. For the comics, it tends to be complex. For a long stretch Superman was who he was and Clark Kent was just a disguise. Then it was changed to Clark Kent is who he is, Superman is just a persona and a costume that he uses to do what he does publically. Without fear of having his privacy invaded. Kal-El was just his birth name.
Y'know there's a one shot comic where Superman IS Batman.
It takes place in a world where Bruce Wayne as we know him was never born and Superman's sjip landed in Gotham. He kills the man who shoots his parents with his heat vision and becomes a Super powered Batman. They still have Lois Lane and Lex Luthor(who they try to turn into a Joker substitute).
Though the best alternitive Batman is the one from Superman: Red Son. He has a little wolly hat. WITH EAR FLAPS!
Is it wrong that I find that adorable?
Are you a guy?
What kind of guy would call himself Twinky???
And no, I am a real female woman girl.