Lit Battlefront II: Campaign Content (spoiler tags required for DLC story)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Taalcon, Apr 12, 2017.

  1. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 5
    No, his impression of Coruscant as an "evil" planet is because he's trying to mimic Jello, but instead of Core jingoism it's Rim jingoism. It's not that subtle.
  2. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8

    Odd fact, @Vthuil, before we fought over FO vs. Empire, me and @GrandAdmiralJello were always getting into arguments over Core vs. Rim.

    My hatred of Coruscant comes from 1998 when I was a religious Star Wars RPG player. Prior to Firefly having a similar concept, I belonged to a large gaming group which held to the view presented by West End Games that the Outer Rim Territories were the home of the Rebellion and exploited by the Evil Core Planets. Coruscant being a planet where "Empire or Rebellion doesn't matter" always infuriated me. I also loathed the fact the books became based on Coruscant as everyone ignored the Rim and treated it like I should care about a bunch of rich aristocrats laughing it up on the galaxy's back.

    I was, essentially a Browncoat before they existed.

    Notably, this became awkward when Lucas made this an actual in-universe concept. Except die-hard anti-Core Worlders weren't the basis of the REBELLION. They were the basis of the SEPARATISTS.

    Pretty much, the whole Coruscant Nights Trilogy also hurt my view of Coruscant as an evil planet because the planet having literal massive underground tunnels of oppressed proletariat ala Metropolis--the movie, not Superman's city--or Taris did undermine my stereotype of it as the evil heart of the Empire.

    Even so, I always felt the Jedi and Rebellion being based there was a bad thing and was pleased when the Republic chose not to make it their capital in canon. It felt like a vindication of my beliefs which almost no one else in the fandom seemed to think was relevant.

    Albeit, I do think giving it to Mas Amedda was shady as kriff.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Jun 16, 2017
    Sinrebirth and JediBatman like this.
  3. comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2017
    star 3
    Hey, I always rooted for the CIS, for the record.
  4. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    I always felt they were a schizophrenic beast as they wanted to give the Jedi some boo hiss villains to beat on while also wanting to show Palpatine was using them. I also think Lucas failed to realize that if you're telling a story about the rise of fascism that the corporations are not usually the people they go against.

    It's why I liked the latter Clone Wars stories where the corporations were funding the CIS but not really its leaders.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Jun 16, 2017
    JediBatman and Barriss_Coffee like this.
  5. comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2017
    star 3
    And, it's like, they're basically right in the end. The Republic is hopelessly corrupt, there isn't really a chance of reform, and there is obviously a significant amount of anti-alien bias. I really wish they emphasized the role of the CIS in the early Rebellion, too. Like, I've always thought that they should have had one of the important CIS leaders, up there with Dooku and Gunray, be Garm bel Iblis. And Zeb should have been a CIS partisan.
    AusStig and Charlemagne19 like this.
  6. Barriss_Coffee Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2003
    star 6
    They missed a golden opportunity to show Coruscant's good side through the eyes of Elan Sleazybag's meaning-of-life quest. This would probably be some weird Owen Wilson romantic comedy, but hey, Coruscant needs it.

    MIDNIGHT IN CORUSCANT.
  7. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    It's kind of telling the only member of the Rebellion we know to have been a CIS agent at this point is Cassian and that's when he was a child soldier.

    The EU, at least, had a certain New Plympto commando.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Jun 16, 2017
  8. JediBatman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2015
    star 3
    I've always thought of the Separatists as basically what the Rebellion would have been like if it had "sold out". Or as Kleeve from the Kanan comics put it, "Understand, as a Separatist, I fought for freedom...but put my trust in a corrupt leadership." The Separatists may have had some legitimate complaints, but they made the mistake of getting their support from corrupt Mega Corps and a secret Sith (of course the Republic was lead by a secret Sith too . . .) IMO the best Clone Wars stories (a phrase here which means "anything written by Jon Ostrander) are almost like a version of the GCW were the Empire is a bit more good and the Rebels are a bit more evil. And in general I've just always loved the CIS aesthetic: Robots are cool. The Rebels definitely need more former Separatists, and more reused tech from both sides of the war.

    @Charlemagne19 I love Bomo Greenbark (poor, poor Greenbark . . .) as a good example of sympathetic Seppies, but there is one small wrinkle in his story. He claims his planet only joined the Separatists because the Republic banned the export of Riknit eggs. But . . .according to the Wook that bird was endangered, so it's not like the Republic didn't have good reasons for banning it. Of course that doesn't make New Plympto's economic collapse due to their main foodstuff being banned any less tragic.
    Axrendale, AusStig and Charlemagne19 like this.
  9. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    I think of the Clone Wars as the Reichstag Fire Plot crossed with the American Civil War writ-large, which is another reason why I think of the CIS very poorly. While it's not necessarily what we see on screen (we have never actually seen what the CIS is from their perspective despite how much Clone Wars material has been made), I think of it as a "Rich Man's War" which was sold to the common people as a war for freedom. In this case, the Megacorps were working for a massive society they could exploit while the people believed it was for freedom (to enslave others but that's not the case in CIS--I hope).

    The Civil War is something American Southerners are still trying to divorce themselves from because so many people love wrapping themselves in the stars and bars to this day (and that's shameful). However, at the time and for a century thereafter, it was very easy to look past the economics of it to believe it was for something other than racist exploitation. Albeit, a Civil War plot without slavery makes no damn sense so it's an odd fit. It might be better to compare it to the Spanish American War with the United States wanting a war to steal land.

    Mind you, Nute Gunray and seemingly the other High Council members KNEW Sidious was a Sith Lord in the Galactic Senate. It's entirely possible THEY believed the CIS was doomed--though they were pretty nervous in ROTS. I wondered what they knew and what they thought they were getting.

    I'm from Appalachia so the cognitive dissonance of "economy as a way of life" versus "economy as a functioning capitalist system" is so normal for me that it doesn't even register as something weird. Specifically, I'm referring to coal where it is something ingrained into the local culture so much as an idea that anything attempting to regulate it or modernize the industry is considered suspect if not outright indecent. This is, of course, despite the fact coal is a dead industry (only 40,000 jobs remain in it anyway) and environmentally destructive to a massive degree in states who primary value is the fact they are among the most pristine left in the country.

    We also saw it swing against Hillary despite the fact, again, facts were on the side of the Democrats in that.

    I don't think they were referencing that but it's strange how applicable even the most oddball things can be in fiction.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Jun 16, 2017
  10. comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2017
    star 3
    That's a big deal out west, anyway. The Endangered Species Act killed 100k timber jobs in Oregon and Washington.
    JediBatman and Charlemagne19 like this.
  11. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    The notion that the upper class is inherently evil is worse than absurd, it's a crime. It's a mentality that explains the myriad evils of the galaxy -- the wars caused by Separatism, Rebellion, and First Orderism. All wars caused by people who wanted more, more, more and moreover wanted it through the blood and treasure of innocents.

    But instead we accept this as a given and then praise the Seppies for some reason that escapes me.

    It's astonishing that we make heroes out of bandits and villains out of innocent families and their children.

    But it's not a surprise, coming from an advocate of child-stealing.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
  12. SpecForce Trooper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2016
    star 4
    Something that Republic and Republic Commando got quite right was that the CIS were more Anti-Villains while the Republic were clear Anti-Heroes. At one point one of the characters figured the CIS were probably better than the Republic. This morality present in the Clone Wars went utterly forgotten with the TV show of the same name. The show was more concerned with painting the Jedi as all good and their enemies as typically pure evil.
    Barriss_Coffee and AusStig like this.
  13. MercenaryAce Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    I have seen many Jello imitators over the years, but none seem to be as entertaining as the original for some reason.
    Darth_Duck likes this.
  14. godisawesome Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2010
    star 3
    Not *entirely* forgotten... But definitely watered down and shoved into the background. We had some good people like the Boneterris, but an entire arc existed basically to show them as totally marginalized from any real role in the CIS. I suppose that would emphasize the false flag nature of the CIS and increase the Civil War parallel, but the CIS at least usually spend droids instead of blood.

    It's got nothing on stuff like that Dark Horse comic where one of Yoda's old friends, a king, commits suicide by tiny Jedi because he knows that the Republic is corrupt, and so are his sons, throwing his planet into the CIS.
    JediBatman and SpecForce Trooper like this.
  15. LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2012
    star 4
    That was Jedi: Yoda, by Jeremy Barlow and Hoon. I really liked that one, and the art was really unique.
    Barriss_Coffee and Mia Mesharad like this.
  16. JediBatman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2015
    star 3
    In addition to Bomo Greenbark and the story with Yoda's friend, those comics give us:

    • The attack on Kamino is lead by a Mon Calamari (interesting given how latter material would make the Mon Cals pro Republic and the Quarren pro Separatist) who cares for his men and says that he's fighting for freedom.
    • Shaak Ti and Plo Koon struggling with the fact that they imposed a leader on Brentaal IV it's people didn't want
    • Mace Windu having a meeting with several Jedi who all oppose the war for different reasons
    • The entire Jabiim arc. The Republic uses AT-ATs to foreshadow it's transformation. The Separatist army is not just droids, but flesh and blood humans who have every valid reason to hate the Republic (though they've also been told that Jedi eat babies . . . ). In fact the Jabiimi who side with the Republic are ultimately screwed over when the Republic leaves.
    • Vos having to do terrible things to keep his cover, Dooku being cheered by crowds of people because he executed their dictator (and every member of the dictator's family of course . . .)
    • Bail trying to stop the Senate from giving more and more power to Palpatine
    • The clone troopers even have a few almost sociopathic qualities, such Alpha proposing they execute prisoners or Krhukh's clones being eager to "get back to work".
    The original Dark Horse Clone Wars comics are probably the best example of "There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere." we'll ever get.
    Last edited by JediBatman, Jun 17, 2017
  17. comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2017
    star 3
    I dislike the choice to make the Mon Cals pro-republic in the CW -- given their history of democracy and hatred of the Empire, they're among the species most likely to have been in the CIS.
  18. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    I dislike that FFG made the fish prince pro Rebel. I'd prefer him to be an Imperial client king in canon -- thus the Mon Cals revolt and go full democracy under the Rebels.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
  19. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 6

    Yeah, I loved TCW and I love Rebels, but if there's one flaw it's that all the characters who are reasonably good are probably going to end up on the Rebels' side, because the Rebels must be good and the Empire must be bad, even when it would make sense for those people to be loyal to the Empire simply because the Empire formed out of the Republic which saved them. It makes sense for, say, Saw Gerrera and Cham Syndulla to be Rebels. But some of the others, like the Prince you mentioned, would make more sense as Imperials.
  20. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Except for Alderaan, Naboo, and Chandrilla being Loyalist.
    MercenaryAce and JediBatman like this.
  21. JediBatman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2015
    star 3
    Well I suppose you could always argue that 20 years of Imperial speciesism and the erosion of liberties could make the Mon Cala turn against them the same way so many pro-Rebulic Senators turned against the Empire. But it's still weird that the heroes dedicated to freedom and democracy have so many hereditary monarchs.

    (And I don't just mean in Star Wars either, two of the founding members of the Justice League include the King of Atlantis and Princess of the Amazons for crying out loud! Pop culture just really likes royalty I guess. Probably the same reason we got "elected Queen Amidala" instead of just "President Amidala".)
    MercenaryAce likes this.
  22. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 28, 2003
    star 6
    While it's not canon, according to FFG, King Lee-char (aka Fish Price) dies during the Imperial occupation of Mon Cala. Without a king, the Mon Calamari and Quarren disband the old Calamari Council and reinstitute it as the New Dac Council. Each major city and space colony elects reprentatives to the council, with is basically a parliamentary democracy. They hold an election for their chief of state, with the first & second runners up becoming the minister of defense and minister of state, IIRC.

    It was said that this style of democracy was adopted due to the Mon Calamari and Quarren liking the Chandrilan model, which is presumably similar if not identical.

    If the Mon Cala and Quarren still have a monarch in the post-GCW era, I'd imagine the setup being akin to modern Great Britain, with a figurehead monarch serving as chief of state, but a parliamentary democracy in place with ministers that actually runs the government.

    Given Raddus's inspiration being Churchill and the Mon Cala being a naval power, I'm actually fond of this concept. ;)

    --Adm. Nick
  23. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    okay fine but Naboo better continue to have a Loyalist queen in the early Imperial era.

    I know that by Shattered Empire it doesn't and we may see Naboo campaigns in Battlefront II...


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
    Sinrebirth and MercenaryAce like this.
  24. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    There's an interesting take which Star Wars: Rebels and Rogue One took which is the fact quite a few of the Rebel Alliance leadership don't want to destroy the Empire. Mon Mothma's plan is to present Galen Erso to the Senate so she can cause them to turn against Palpatine and maybe finally remove him from power. It's her agent who has Galen assassinated and thus prevents this plan from happening (not that it would work either way). Only by the Battle of Scarif and the use of the Death Star is it now completely, "The Empire must be destroyed."

    On the idea of the Separatists being the good guys, I generally go with the idea you can't go binary with the war as Good vs. Evil. The Jedi Knights, Padme, and other good guys would prefer a peaceful settlement. However, the whole point of it is that a peaceful settlement cannot be had. Also, the CIS has to be so terrifying to the Old Republic they throw power to Palpatine over and over again to save them. To use a tragic real-life example, how the Federal government gained massive massive amounts of power after 9/11.

    Matthew Stover handled it by the fact Count Dooku portrayed himself as a reasonable statesman and worthy opponent while General Grevious committed countless war crimes and was loathed by the populace at large.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Jun 17, 2017
    DurararaFTW, Revanfan1 and JediBatman like this.
  25. comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2017
    star 3
    Well, it's a Rim v Core deal as well...
    Eh, they fight for Justice, not democracy.