A/V Battlefront II: Campaign Content (spoiler tags required for DLC story)

So I played and finished the campaign (took just under 6 hours) and I loved it. I imagine if you just watch the cutscenes on youtube you'll miss a lot of the experience. There's a ton of in-mission dialogue which further develops the characters.

And Shriv might be one of the best characters ever.

 

Why would the Empire be a twenty year interruption of the Republic if Palpatine had crushed the rebels at Endor and then died in a freak opera accident a year later?

My understanding (which, again, is limited so forgive any mistakes) is that the Empire could have been perfectly strong, stable and ready to go on for twenty thousand years when Palpatine died -- his place and importance in history assured -- and still Cinder would have tried to tear it all down.

For some people "spite" is enough to make sense of that. For others, it isn't. I don't think that's unfair.

 

That's actually an issue of the Rule of Two I had. Darth Bane seemed to have severe issues with the idea a Sith could die in a car crash.

I think it kind of underscores the primary issue here, which is, "What exactly sort of person was Palpatine?" It's not even the case of what's realistic because there have been dictators who have held the view they are godlike beings and absolutely despise the idea of anything functioning after themselves versus ones who have tried to make their empires extensions of themselves. We know Palpatine had the idea Darth Vader could kill him and we know he had plans to live forever from Revenge of the Sith.

So it becomes a question of what his goals were.

I'm of the mind Palpatine's creation of the Empire was purely selfish, which is a big deal as it implies literally there's no remote belief by Palpatine the Empire is anything but a way to line his pockets, increase his power over the Force, and to be an enormous monument to his vanity. It's VADER who actually cares about building a long lasting legacy and bringing order to the galaxy because he never let go of his Jedi beliefs entirely.

But I should note I don't think Cinder is specifically MURDDEERRR as the goal. I think it's specifically PUNISHMENT. The way it's framed in Aftermath is that Palpatine is ANGRY at the EMPIRE for the fact they let him die.

 

Fair enough.

 

I hate the last command and honestly that thing with Mara always made little sense to me given his plans in Dark Empire. So I think it was more likely she was insane.

But you literally just said Cinder was the thing that made the Empire splinter

Yes years, plural not under one. Not to mention the Empire still had holdings on the rim and core, it didn't just fall into a heap. Also Crumbling is not completely collapsing. The Empire losing planets to rebellion (assisted by the rebels) and officers not answering the call of the central government (though with an admiral in charge it starts to stretch my disbelief) But completely falling, in a few months? It's just too fast.

Well no, the Death Star exists to show the might of the Empire and how ruthless Tarkin is. If it was a GI Joe v cobra type plot then it never would have blown up the planet full of innocent people. But they didn't, they avenged them and saved the heroes, but the innocent people are still dead.

Yes we do know that. But they haven't seemed to do the same to their own people (Vader being the exception).

I am not disagreeing with people who say Palps could want to burn the galaxy with him. My point is that Cinder as presented doesn't do that and doesn't seem to even come close.

 

Sheevbot says "Operation: Cinder is to begin at once. Resistance. Rebellion. Defiance. These are concepts that cannot be allowed to persist. You are but one of many tools by which these ideas shall be burned away." At the time he recorded this message, it seems he didn't think he'd be dying in a freak opera accident - there's no resistance, rebellion, or defiance there.

 

Spoiler

If they were just attacking Rebel worlds then it would make sense. But they aren't they are also attacking Loyalist worlds like Vardos

 

I think Sheev is ordering attacks on Imperial worlds because the most likely people to kill him are his fellow Imperials.

Even in fandom, everyone keeps assuming the possibility of the Rebellion winning is so infinitessmally remote, they keep looking sideways at the fact they're canonically the stars of the Saga.

Literature and fandom is filled with people who think, "Well, if it was REAL, then Thrawn/Tarkin/General veers/Vader/Dave the Stormtrooper would be the new government."

But seriously, Cinder targets worlds which have importance to Palpatine like Naboo and worlds which would be instrumental in rebuilding the Empire.

If he can't have the Empire, nobody will.

 

Spoiler

I believe (just my speculation, mind) that Vardos was targetted because it was a strong world and therefore a potential threat. Besides, I don't think the Emperor really cares all that much for which worlds are loyal, that's not really the point of Cinder anyway. It's a scorched ground strategy performed on planets that the rebels are likely to target for invasion, rather like Naboo I guess).
Truth be told, my issue is that Versio is in charge of it (perhaps he should be commanding the effort on another planet, and they find out it's been done by another commander on their home). But to be fair that's a big part of the story thematically - at what point do loyalty and following orders stop? Garrick and Hask are clearly so wrapped up in the idea of the Empire that they cannot function without it, so any order must be justified

 

I imagine it's the symbolic value.

Spoiler

Vardos is the Imperial Way Works World. What better way to cause despair and misery than to have the Empire destroy it?

 

Is it really so hard to believe that ol' Palpatine is just a petty dude?

It doesn't have to be that complicated guys. I mean we literally have him saying "An empire that can't protect its emperor doesn't deserve to exist".

 

I think it's the fact a lot of people can't imagine Palpatine would acknowledge he'd ever die.

But there's also the element a lot of people want to think the Empire stood for order in a twisted way despite all the evidence it absolutely did not.

"Crime was not an issue with the Empire!"

"The Empire allied with Black Sun and Jabba the Hutt."

 

Rather than seeing it as the Emperor acknowleding his own mortality, I just think he tries to plan for every possibility.

We are talking about the guy who planned out and saw through the Clone Wars and the takeover of the Republic.

His apprentices seemed to be more to fulfill some selfish desire rather than out of respect for the Sith Rule of Two. If Palpatine is the fulfillment of the Sith's revenge and legacy, why would he continue to respect Bane's rules?

 

You need to go to the opera more.

(But yeah, goes to show how quickly I forgot the details)

 

What's hard to believe, and what I've never been able to suspend disbelief enough to accept, is why anyone ordered to carry out Operation Cinder actually would. They're going to destroy the Empire and then do what? Throw yourself on the Rebels' mercy? They're going to put loyalty to a dead man over their own survival and the chance to seize power? Handing people the Idiot Ball just isn't good storytelling.

 

I mean, they don't think they're destroying the Empire. Isn't the point that none of them have the full picture?

 

They're not told they're going to destroy the Empire though. Each officer is given just enough information to carry our their orders, and they don't know the overall goals. Many of them are targeting Rebel or neutral worlds and if they could handle two Death Stars they can do that. With Imperial worlds, it is a lot harder to justify. However, if only the most loyal officers are sent after Imperial targets, then they'd likely accept the attack out of loyalty to the Empire and trust that their actions have a purpose. In such a case, they would only need a little persuasion to be convinced to go along with the actions. Palpatine was probably very careful in selecting who would carry out Cinder.

 

Like it's been mentioned in this actual thread, Operation Cinder was only handed down to the Emperor's most loyal supporters. The people who would go along with this plan. Hell, it seems pretty likely that others were used in the plan without actually knowing what the operation entailed.

 

Spoiler

Exactly. I actually suspect the stormtroopers on Vardos had no idea what they were doing. It's possible they were even told that their goal was to keep order to protect the citizens. Or something similar so that they wouldn't question what was going on. These reasons are why I think we need a story that gives us an in depth look at Cinder. [\Spoiler]

 

Given the atrocities in real life carried out against their own people by virtually every dictatorship in history, why WOULDN'T they do it?

Dictators usually target citizens of their own nations over enemy combatants.

 

Yeah, this. I don't see it as remotely inconsistent with the Legends idea that Palpatine wanted to live forever as an immortal dark-side god - which honestly we still see hinted at in canon. Cinder is just a backup plan in case that doesn't work out.

 

Yeah but what about when Sansa calls him for trial.

 

For one, they need those resources for the coming power struggle.

 

What about all the other good answers that were given for your question?

 

If you aren't willing to murder a planet for the Emperor then why are you in the Empire?

I admit to disappointment we don't get to see more worlds burn.



I mean, seriously, why do Imperials continue to live? The only proper response after their Emperor's death is to kill yourself or everyone around you until you're dead. It's the Jem'hadar Stormtrooper way.