Discussion in 'Oceania Discussion Boards' started by Kahlan72, Feb 25, 2005.
Sure thing: Robot Kampf
Btw, ignore the photos and just click somewhere either on the left sidebar or at the top right of the page.
Jason loves posting photos of himself and his life more than anyone else I've ever met... it's kinda freaky.
We now return to our regularly scheduled descriptions...
Season 4, Episode 13: The Oath.
Two words and a small request are all I have to say...
Please, oh pretty please can I be the one to push the button to airlock Gaeta? Y'all can line up wotsisname and Hoshi and Zarek against a bulkhead and shoot 'em, but I want to see Gaeta sucking vacuum by the end of the series. I bet Tyrol's really regretting giving the traitor a free life now...
Season 4, Episode 13
Wow. This was up there with the best of series. Though most two parters are.
Starbuck: "I haven't felt this clear (good?) in weeks". Can I get a Frak yeah? She was back in fine form that we haven't seen in such a long time. Speaking of which, it was good to see Lee back teamed up with starbuck, pistol in hand.
Same can be said for Adama and Tigh. Both Completely kicked major ass. I haven't been on the edge of my seat like that cliff hanger for a long time. The closing scene was so well done.
So the vice president finally rears his ugly head. Zarick's always been after it. Here's his chance. Bad Mr Gadia, Bad. Love Adama's line about consequences to him. Out the airlock for sure. Too bad about all those Marines & pilots though. Must be like half the military force, too bad if the other cylons attack
I have a bad feeling that either party 1: Adama & Tigh or Party 2: Roslyn & Bultar won't survive. It's such a 50/50 thing at the end....
What's with Lee's little outburst with Tigh? I mean, yeah it suck he is a cylon. It sucks humanity is on the run. But come on. He of all people should know that Tigh wasn't involved, or had no knowledge of being involved.
After asking his father what he would have done if it was his other son (name?) had gotten out of that cockpit instead of starbuck, way back in 4.1, and was a cylon, been one all along - would it matter? I find his attack on the final 5 a little contrived.
And there is the little matter of all those other unanswered questions that are still lingering. I hope they clear up more soon, i sure don't want to get to the last episode and have everything crammed in.
But that's what I love about this show. I know they wont disappoint.
Great Episode - ****
Cargin - Hoshi's still one of the good guys!
I think I'm a bit overwhelmed by the last episode.
Not the way anyone expected this to go I'm sure, which is good from a writing point of view, but DAMN, what happens after this..half the crew of Galactica are dead, and enemies made now will remain enemies.
It's all good stuff and well written, but it's not really what I thought this season would be about. It does however prove the self destructive tendencies of the human race, which gives one a distinct lack of hope and more of a belief in it all happening again. Although I guess the humans allying with the cylons is the first step in the cycle repeating.
Which side IS the good guys though Neech? Seems obvious, but Gaeta is just doing what he thinks is right, and the governemnt under Roslyn certainly ain't no democracy for the people to feel part of. Go the socialist dictatorship...
I'm feeling sad. Not cooly shocked or ..WOH like I have been with the other episodes. Sad...and hoping for a decent resolution to the current crisis.
...but I think he and Felix are over.
Kahlan - Any side that Bill Adama is on!
Don't you know that man's never wrong!
Oh good lord. Talk about raising the stakes.
I spoke regarding last week's episode about how it was the **** finally hitting the fan after four years of our heroes basically lying to the civilian population by omission. All the dirty secrets, all the hidden agendas, all the ugly truths, it's all been laid bare. And you know what? People are fraking pissed off about it. They're not going to take it, and the only thing left up in the air is whether this is actually going to be the end of the human race, or if they can come out the other side without managing to destroy themselves in their greif and rage.
The hardest thing about this episode, the absolute hardest thing, is that Gaeta and Zarek are right. Seriously, they are. We all react with horror at the betrayal of Adama and their oaths, but they're right. The civilian government doesn't exist anymore. Roslin's basically given up on any attempt at being the president, the Quorum is even more of a joke than ever, and the only law or direction is coming from Galactica's CIC. Who cares if Adama has made good decisions and kept everyone alive? Because nobody knows. Zarek's right: when the civilian government is reduced to less than even puppet status, the society becomes a military dictatorship. And when all of the questionable things the higer-ups have done come to light out of context, can you really blame Gaeta for wanting to, as he sees it, set things right?
The answer, as it turns out, is yes, in part. You can't blame him his beliefs, but you can blame him for his choices. For allying himself with someone like Zarek, who'd murder in cold blood to protect the plan, and who'd give execution orders for Adama behind Gaeta's back. For allying with someone like Gage, who clearly is still, after 2 years, unabashedly willing to commit rape to salve his bruised pride. And for finally abandoning his principles and ordering the CAP to open fire on the fleeing Raptor.
I don't know what's going to happen to Felix Gaeta, but I'm not unsympathetic. That's what made the episode even harder to watch.
I could talk about the crowning moments of awesome, about Starbuck's "I could do this all day," or Adama's last stand, but those weren't what made the episode. It was the inevitability, and the genuine sense of betrayal that I felt. I'm so invested in these characters now that it feels personal when things like this happen. Seeing characters we know, friends, almost, like Racetrack, Skulls and Seelix turn on us... It was hard. Surprisingly hard. Even harder, as I've said, when you kind of agree with them.
This show is really quite unlike anything I've watched before.
Seven episodes left.
You know... I could almost buy all that if Gaeta hadn't shown himself to be a pissed off opportunist. If the seeds of this had been laid early, say around the events of Litmus or Tigh Me Up, Tigh Me Down, I'd be sympathetic towards the cause, moreso if the civilian leader of the rebellion was Baltar. But Zarek?!?
Put it this way - Gaeta did nothing contrary to command policy until after he lost his leg, even actively supporting said policies. He never raised a voice of dissent about Adama's polices towards the Cylons after Starbuck's return and before he got shot in the leg, and discovered some hard truths about his work under Baltar on New Caprica. There's no public morality or greater good motive behind what he's doing - military officers who break their oath with decent motivations do so after long and careful consideration. Adama is no Hitler and Gaeta is no Claus von Stauffenberg, to use a real world comparison. Gaeta's angry and he's in this for personal gain, revenge. The only catch is he's focusing his anger in the wrong direction - he's the one who screwed up, on multiple occasions, by trusting the wrong people. Adama and Tigh are not the ones responsible for Gaeta allowing the Cylons to kill civilians on New Caprica or for him losing his leg - Gaeta is the only one responsible for the former, Helo and Anders are responsible for the latter.
Fair points, but I don't think it's just about the leg. A lot of bad stuff went down right as that unfortunate incident happened. Basically, there's two things that are behind this, for Gaeta and for most people. Firstly, everything they'd been made to hope, dream and believe about Earth turned out to be a big fat lie. That wasn't anyone's fault, but I'm not sure that matters to many people at this point, not when finding someone to blame gives them something to keep going. And the bigger problem is the Cylons. The fraking Cylons. If we hadn't seen everything that's happened over the past two seasons, if we hadn't come to understand and know and sympathise with them as individuals and as a people, we'd be upset at this talk of an alliance, over talk of amnesty and forgivenes,and worse, of them trotting over installing their mysterious jump drives into every ship, drives that could be booby-trapped, or remote controllable, or who knows what. To ordinary people in the fleet, even to people like Gaeta, a relatively senior officer, this has really all come out of nowhere. Roslin and Admama have changed their tune again, and not only are they trying to brush away their failure with Earth, they're doing what seems to be an insane act in coluding with these things that wiped out the human race. Oh, so they've had a change of heart. They can have kids. They're really sorry now. Boo hoo. Even people like Lee, who know everything that's gone on, can't forget the truth of what they Cylons did. It's why Gaeta charges Adama with treason. Beacuse, from the point of view of a lot of people, that's what it is.
I'm playing devil's advocate a little here. The end of Lee's exchange with Tigh really says it all to me.
Lee: You know why Tom Zarek's got so much support in the fleet? Because when you get past the arrogance, he's right. We can pretend to put it behind us, exchange lofty words about an alliance, but if this is what survival has come to...
Adama: It's all we've got, now calm down.
Lee: It's all they left us.
And ain't that the truth. So far as most people know, the Cylons are still a faceless enemy who infuiltrate and destroy from within. And when both Galactica and the civiilian government turn out to have been virtually run by the Final Five (from an outside point of view), it becomes clear to people who don't know any better that the entire operation is lost, and it's just like New Caprica all over again, except with no dream to keep going towards after they leave.
Adama and Roslin have my loyalty, but that's because I know everything they've been through, and everything they've discovered. The rest of the fleet don't. Adama and Roslin have never been good at communicating with the people, and now they're paying the price for being so mysterious.
Again, devil's advocate. None of us here are likely to take Gaeta's side. But, unpleasantness of some of his actions not withstanding, I think the reason for that is that we know more than he does.
I agree with BBN and The General, but feel another point should be raised:
I wouldn't be bothered by Gaeta's actions so much except he's done this before, and look how that turned out! Gaeta's actions were the domino that sent the whole New Caprica fiasco tumbling the way it did, and we're going to have similar consequences here. That conflict cost humanity another 10,000 souls, and they're running dangerously low on those. However, not everyone knows what happened there, and as far as Gaeta knows, only Tigh tried to rig the vote, rather than it being a wider conspiracy.
Lee's outburst to Tigh sums up the situation (though I personally don't think Tigh should have been the one who copped it, but anyway), humanity has every right to be angry and not want to collaborate with these Cylons (who I can't remember if they're labelled as Cylon Rebels or not?). The last time people collaborated with the Cylons, people died and traitors were made, so the viewpoint is understandable.
Gotta love this show!
Be seeing you,
No, Tigh definitely shouldn't have been the target of Lee's ire, but he was closest. It's another illustration of how hard it still is for even people like Lee to stop thinking of the Cylons as a terrible force massing in the shadows, and start thinking of them as individuals. Even harder when the Cylons themselves are still wrestling with the notion of actual, genuine individuality.
Oh man, now that was intense to watch.
Few words can't sum it up for me at the moment but in the end I can't say I was sorry at the outcome. This is where you could see it fast becoming a dictatorship, mainly from Zarek. Cold blooded murder. Wow. Adama and Roslin may not have always been forthcoming but at least there was sum sort of order. Even in the end both Gaeta and Zarek knew they were wrong. People with clean conciseness don't freeze under pressure or resort to murder. They don't need a kangaroo court(those accusations were just absurd). That's why Adama always been able to make the tough decisions.
In the end, I personally, feel a little sorry for Gaeta ? Zarek certainly put an end to any good he might have been trying to do. But that's what happens when you pair-up with the devil.
I wondered what the chief was up too and it all worked out. Was it just me or did anyone dig seeing some of the engines at work? And what was the marks he found?
What about Sam?
I'll just add that I sure wouldn't want to get on the bad side of Roslin
Towards the end, I was kinda sorta hoping that Gaeta would do an about face and have Zarek lined up in front of the firing squad, but I'm not disappointed with the way this turned out. They both got their just desserts really. As I may have said before, Gaeta really should have kept his faith in the Admiral, but he was (I felt) too busy blaming the wrong people for his leg being blowed off and dealing with the revelations of his choices on New Caprica.
The charges against Adama were the true colours of Zarek showing. Right then, if you weren't certain of his motives then including a charge of desertion on the docket was purely arrogant and corrupt. That's a crime no-one in the fleet would ever have believed William Adama capable of, even if they believed him capable of treason and giving aid and comfort to the enemy in time of war. If the story had gone the way of offing the Admiral and allowing the coup to continue, that would have been the out for resolving the crisis further down the track.
As for forgiveness, I'm guessing the brig-rat Kelly has redeemed himself, after being given a life by Lee - can't imagine the Old Man would have had him shot after the help he provided after sulking in the passageway. Does this mark the return of former LSO to duty?
What really flipped me was the engine room sequence... I'm trying to dig the symbolism about those marks on the bulkhead. It looked at first pass to be a blood-smeared breah in the bulkhead, but if that's true, what was on the other side? I need to really look at this on a big screen and think about the arc episodes relating to Tyrol and his background.
Yeah the engine room scene was the one enigma. I liked the action movie the show's been the last two episodes, but yey some mystery! Looked liked scratches, or gouges or somewhat. My twisted brain has been imagining a mutated Cally clawing at the walls from the inside...somehow..I dunno..too much sci fi channel for me probably.
I thought the Quorum would have a good role to play when they asked Zarek to leave..I looked forward to seeing them becoming people of action, rather than a bunch of whingers...but Zarek had to go all Anakin on them. Was waiting for the executioners to walk outside with red eyes and a tear. ( it's a Star Wars board, so I'm allowed to amke comparisons!)
Go chief! I think they are finally letting Aaron Douglas lose a little weight, although the sigh and the grumble whilst almost stuck in the ducting made me smile. Yeah, seeing the engines was very cool! Reminded me of the commentary of Serenity when Joss talked about the 3 or 4 shots he was allowed of the generator Mal and the Operative were climbing above. Wonder how much that shot cost. Tangent...
LOVED the bit where Lee threw the grenade, walked in and started shooting. It didn't click why Kara was hiding..thought she'd had a momentary lapse in bravery. I will remind myself I hate guns and violence and any interest I have in this section of the show is purely from a dramatic point of view!
And yeah what happened to Sam and Kara and Badger???
Revolution resolved, but maybe a bit more easily than it seeemed it would end in EP 13.
Side note..when the six was carrying Hera through the corridor whilst Athena carried Helo, I was having opera house flashes..wondering if this was the moment when everyone would join together to save Hera from gunfire, and it not be the horrible abduction Athena killed the other six for.
Back on track to some episodes of soul searching and time to understand the meaning of life. I think Bill might just ask the Cylons to find their own way though, without Galactica, and take on board a couple of things Traitor Gaeta had to say.
Awesome episode, I'll write some more later, but all I can think of now is
Those cracks in the wall the Tyrol saw looked like stress fractures. Galactica isn't going to last much longer. Another jump is going to rip it apart. Which leads me to my final conclusion
Galactica is the dying leader who won't make it to the promised land.
That's a very interesting though MS
I still can't get over Roslin's little speech...even the the cylons looked worried Mary Mc. acting was at it's greatest there imo.
From a professional, they did NOT look like stress fractures. Sorry They did look like rips of some kind. I could go along with the idea that Galactica is on it's last legs, but if Roslin is not going to die then she'd best be getting better very soon.
In the end Zerek and Gaeta had to die. There were no other outs. In Zerek's case it was well deserved. In Gaeta's case it was more of a "tragic hero" ending. MacBeth anyone?
I prefer to think of him more as a Breaker Morant type...and not in the romantic vilified and victimized hero type. He did the wrong thing on more than one occasion, and deserved punishment. I guess I'd think better of him if he'd found some backbone and double-crossed Zarek when the terrorist showed his true colours...
Time after time MacBeth did the wrong thing because he believed that it was his destiny. He must have known what he was doing was wrong, that his wife was manipulating him.
Brains Melted: 2.
Make it 3.
It's exposition episode we've needed. How fun making Cavil the man with 'The plan'
wow. That's all i got.
I'm still REALLY struggling to understand all that I heard in the course of the episode.
I know that I have a sense of disappointment..coming from somewhere. Maybe it's the whole Ellen thing. Or that so far is does all seem to be a technological explanation for the 5 and the skin jobs. Hate it when I'm right.
What I got out of itand this is more to help me understand. I intend of rewatchings today to glean more.)
The 5 including Ellen were created by Centurions?? still not even sure about this
They created skin job cylons, of which John was the first and a bit of a petulant child. There was a war on their planet and they went to warn others not to follow what they'd done? ( probably not..totally need to rewatch it)
Instead they assisted those cylons to create resurrrection technology..no I must be getting this wrong.
And I'm totally not sure how they lost their memories and got put into the human race. Oh hang on..remembering Cavill put them there to witness the stupidity of the human race.
So really, I got little out of it. Was it this hard to understand or am I just a bit dopey???
I wished the Ellen part hadn't been in it though. SO she's been with Cavill since Caprica, and she remembers everything, and she's their Mum. Creepy, just creepy. And Boomer knows Ellen's there. Does any of the other CYlon know? Oh yeah, the one tht was gonna operate.
The episode would've been better with the exposition from Sam and the other 3 explaining it, but maybe they haven't the time now to do that so they thought they'd blow our minds with info.
Kara seemed so releived to hear the name Daniel. I started wondering mostly how Daniel has to link to Kara somehow. What was Lee's brother's name? And yeah was Sam remembering the right name. Oh yeah must've been, cause Ellen said it too. DOH! Anyway, as I'm really struggling to understand the rest, I might keep my mind focussed on the link KAra must have..to something!
I liked the scenes with the Chief and Adama. Gee the old man can drink now. Can't believe he gave the order to introduce cylon biotechnology into the very ship. IS that how the music got in there??
Also liked the scene with Roslyn and Lee.
Kahlan - Lee's brother was Zak.
So... Ellen was having sex with the guy that she created in the image of her father.