"Be mindful of the Living Force"

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Cryogenic, Jul 8, 2006.

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  1. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    If everyone has a unique connection with the Force, and Anakin has the greatest connection of all, then doesn't this line actually mean, "be mindful of yourself," but just as importantly, "be mindful of Anakin"? Isn't "Living Force" a metaphor of a metaphor? I think that Qui Gon's opening lines take on greater significance if seen this way. He's telling Obi Wan to literally mind himself, and while not aware of it, to also literally mind Anakin. Pretty clever, I think.

    The entire saga is contextualised at this moment. The shortcomings of everyone are highlighted. If Qui Gon's innate philosophy can be taken as "true", then no one quite measures up: Obi Wan fails to properly train Anakin, Anakin fails to restrain himself, Mace fails to see the Dark Side in himself, the Jedi fail to suss Palpatine out until it's too late, Shmi fails to see the emotional trauma of sending Anakin away at his age and even Qui Gon isn't mindful enough to understand the true effect of Anakin leaving at the age he does.

    What do you think?
  2. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    oh, i think, nice :D

    it seems like this cancels out the debate for assuming the greater good is always more important than the individual happiness. what was that again, the needs of many outweigh the needs of one...

    that.


  3. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Its about being mindful of what is going on around you - not looking into the future etc.

    The problem is some people just dont care about what is going on around them or are too self-absorbed.

    Case in point:Anakin.

    He cared too much about his own feelinsg and lost sight of what was going on around him.
  4. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Yes.

    Everyone is interconnected through the Force. Anakin forgot all about this. The better part of his nature, perhaps the Force itself (tying into my original idea of Anakin being one variant of the Living Force), recognises this, and tears are shed.
  5. YYZ-2112 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    These shortcomings tie in well with the OT in that the last of the Jedi allow the force to forge its' will, rather than try to shape those around them to what they feel is the will of the force. By letting go, the will of the force reveals itself.
  6. Carnage04 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 5
    I like the way you are thinking. I posted a similar arguement about Anakin being a force ghost. Since Anakin was "Concieved by midichlorians" he was the force. He didn't need a trick to become one with the force after death....he already was!

    I think what you are saying is possible, but I'm also thinking that when the films were made, Lucas was not quite sure where he was going with those lines by Qui-Gon early on. As fans, we can see great wisdom in something that was just supposed to be simple.

    Carnage
  7. DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2005
    star 3
    Maybe Im off on a tangent, but this got me thinking about the time Mace was about to strike down Sidious. If Anakin did not stop Mace, wouldn't that mean Mace himself used the Darkside! As Anakin said "its not the Jedi way" and stops Mace. Eventually he says "what have I done?" and Sidious replies "fulfilling your destiny". But guess what? Sidious doesn't realize that Anakin learns to "let go" and actually fulfills his destiny by destroying Sidious himself!

    Anakin was right that time that it was NOT the Jedi way and even Luke reiterates that "Im a Jedi, like my father before me", as he did not strike Vader down. See where this is going? O:)
  8. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    I doubt Mace striking down Sidious would be an act of the Dark Side. He didn't have any malice in his heart, nor did he have any selfish intentions nor greed. He wasn't acting out of anger, nor was it something he would have enjoyed doing. He was acting out of duty, in an objective manner.
  9. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Yup

    What Anakin did to Palpatine in RotJ isn't any less "dark" then what Mace was about to do - we just see it from a romantic slant because Palpatine was torturing Anakin's son and daddy came to the rescue. But the act itself was very brutal, he didn't just pull Palpatine off Luke - he threw him down to his certain death.

    Another example is Ben Kenobi in the Tattooine Cantina - slashing that criminal could've probably been avoided, but Ben did what needed to be done at the moment. Which is what the living force is all about - him, Mace, Anakin didn't go out saying 'I'm gonna kill me somebody'; they were forced into a corner and simply did what was right for the moment.

    "Your focus determines your reality"
  10. DARTHIRONCLAD Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2005
    star 3

    These lines of dialogue contradict Yoda's dialogue in TESB.
    OBI-WAN : I have a bad feeling about this.
    QUI-GON : I don't sense anything.
    OBI-WAN : It's not about the mission, Master, it's
    something...elsewhere...elusive.
    QUI-GON : Don't center on your anxiety, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration
    here and now where it belongs.
    OBI-WAN : Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future...
    QUI-GON : .....but not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the
    living Force, my young Padawan.



    Yoda's dialogue from TESB:
    Yoda : This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away...to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was.
    Hmm? What he was doing.


    So has Lucas lost his mind? Is Lucas the destroyer of all that was good of the OT? No. Lucas is showing the audience a change in Yoda's philosophy.

    Change for the most part is a good thing. I find that many fans just want to curse Lucas instead of giving him a change. Yoda and the old Jedi Order failed to change, and this failure led to their demise. All but two died. Obi-Wan and Yoda represent two poor souls who would spend their final years having to cope with their failure. However, their failures were not in vein, because they were capable looking back and acknowledging their failures. As a wise woman once said, "It's the only way we grow." Obi-Wan and Yoda were able to acknowledge their failures and change.

    By the time we meet up with Yoda again in TESB, he no longer pushes the "Be mindful of the future" philosophy, he pushes the "Keep your concentration here and now where it belongs" philosophy.

    Within the opening dialogue between Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, George Lucas is attempting to show the audience that Yoda did not always believe what he believed in TESB.

    "Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you. That you do not need." Yoda obviously had great issues with Qui-Gon; however, thirty years after Qui-Gon's death, Yoda now thinks like Qui-Gon. Yoda changed. The dark times changed Yoda, but Yoda still cannot let go of the old ways. That's why Yoda believes Luke is wrong when he leaves to rescue his friends, but Luke was only being mindful of the
    living Force
    .





  11. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    well said DARTHIRONCLAD, i have many times argued about the "evolution" yoda went through.

    His entire outlook on the world changes, and he actually at one point advises Luke to do what he did not do, and I am sure Yoda regrets that mistake.

    =D=
  12. DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2005
    star 3
    I guess Anakin was whistling dixie, when he told Mace that it was NOT the Jedi way? [face_thinking] the same thing he said after he was forced to destroy Dooku (through Palpatine's prompting).

    Palpatine tells Anakin "he was too dangerous to be kept alive". See, in the Bigger picture, the Darkside already has control of the situation (and I'll get to that below).

    Luke stopped from killing Vader to avoid his father's fate. Anakin killed younglings that were unarmed (showing that he had become a Sith). If Luke killed his father (who was unarmed at the time), he would have become a Sith. I believe Anakin actually helped the Jedi (and a Top one at that) from committing an act of the Darkside (killing an unarmed individual). Mace tells Anakin EXACTLY what Palpatine did in the beginning.

    Im not saying Mace would be "wrong" to kill Sidious, but do you think it would have solved the Darkside's control of things? I would not think so, because Mace was NOT doing the Jedi thing. Luke said it himself by NOT killing Vader "I'm a Jedi..." So, the Darkside of the Force only then (ROTJ) had almost ended its reign, and ended when the Emperor bit the dust.

    Sadly, it was not the right time...until Anakin did it, being the Chosen One, when it was clear the Rebel Alliance was fighting for a just galaxy against an evil Empire and its Emperor. Things were black and white then, unlike the PT years.

    Meanwhile, Mace fails to see the Dark Side in himself

    Could Cryogenic point out where is the Darkside in Mace? Thanks.


  13. Eliza_Skywalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2006
    I just want to throw in this:

    The difference between killing Palpatine and Dooku is that Palpatine is not an unarmed prisoner because he still can use his force lightning - he actually is not helpless like Dooku who has no chance to use force lightning because he lost both of his hands.
    The same situation we have when Luke refuses to kill Vader in EVI after cutting off his hand - Vader is helpless, but Palpatine is not because he still uses his force lightning. And that's the difference between this situations that at the first sight seem to be equal.

    Just my poor thoughts.[face_blush]
  14. DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2005
    star 3
    The same situation we have when Luke refuses to kill Vader in EVI after cutting off his hand - Vader is helpless, but Palpatine is not because he still uses his force lightning. And that's the difference between this situations that at the first sight seem to be equal.

    I agree with you to some extent, but when Mace was about to strike Sidious (Sidious well and truly beaten till he had a chance to lets say "recharge". But here is the crux. Luke knows he should not underestimate the Sith as warned to him by Yoda. But more importantly threw away his only mode of defence his lightsaber! Not only that, but since Mace was unable to destroy Sidious and dies,it paved the way for Anakin to be the only one to eventually bring balance, like he was supposed to at the right time. He did destroy the Sith (where he failed earlier as Obi Wan exasperately told him- "you were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them!).

    I believe that if Mace killed Sidious, there would still be no balance as things were not black and white then.

  15. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    I have to disagree there. The moment Palpatine is discovered as the Sith Lord, the line is drawn in the proverbial sand. We have a distinct root of evil, and it is before the Jedi, who are the "white" in the white-and-black dicotomy, whom have a duty to defeat evil. That's what illustrates Anakin's decision. He makes a choice to join the evil sect. The Sith were the ones behind the blockade and invasion of Naboo, the Sith were the ones trying to assassinate Padme Amidala, the Sith were the ones who plunged the Galaxy into war by controlling both sides. That's the moment true clarity arrives, where the Sith were the ones pulling all the strings, the ones in power, and had to be destroyed. There was no "gray" at this point, things became distinctly black and white.
  16. DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2005
    star 3
    I am in total agreement actually :)

    The only point I am trying to make is that, it would not END things right there and then although it seems like it. Let me explain, it was Anakin who was to bring balance/destroy the Sith, not Mace, not Yoda, not Luke O:)). Luke threw away his weapon, because that does not make a Jedi, while Mace uses it to almost destroy Sidious "Once and for ALL". But Mace was WRONG. There is only one who could do that and that was Anakin. The Jedi let the Darkside slip from their sights and trained a young boy to Jedi hood, while still blind to the enveloping shroud of the Darkside.

    Hate to say it but it was only Anakin who was meant to bring balance, by killing Sidious and giving up his life. There had to be a NEW beginning and not having Jedi who were blinded by their arrogance and oversight. Having Mace kill Sidious would not have the Jedi see the error of their ways either.

    Have I made any inroads? :D

  17. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    The moment Palpatine is discovered as the Sith Lord, the line is drawn in the proverbial sand. We have a distinct root of evil, and it is before the Jedi, who are the "white" in the white-and-black dicotomy, whom have a duty to defeat evil.

    it's only the jedi who paint it this way. like any fundamentalist.

    palps is actually the one operating in greys, which seems a scary thought in all this.
  18. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    So you are suggesting that there is an element of doing the right thing for Palpatine but not the Jedi?
  19. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i suggest there are shades beyond black and white, as the metaphor goes.
  20. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Any chance you could flesh that out a little?

    Are you suggesting that part of what Palpatine is doing is in any way good? Or that the Jedi's purposes were all selfish?
  21. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i'm suggesting that good is a point of view, if you recall. that the amount of good you do, the amount of evil you do, is always also limited to your perspective.

    what i can do to you as a person might essentially hurt others. i have no way of judging it. (yes, with hindsight and all)

    a war i start to 'free' a nation might essentially hurt another nation. it might also hurt the people who i made fighting for me. or kill them. and it will hurt their families to know they died for a cause which also hurt the families of this other nation.

    likewise, the amount of pain i cause to do what i think is right, might be directly proportionate to the pain it causes me to not do what i think is right, and what i think is right, might totally not be the other party's idea of what's right, in which case i create conflict over what's 'right' and there's no solution to this other than compromising.

    if i do not look for compromise or do not seek to understand why the other party ended up with what they hold to be self-evidence of 'right' i am essentially righteous and need to be shown the door when i claim my love for all and everyone.

    it doesn't mean i need to comply to everyone's wishes, it just means that i can see more than one pov.

    morality is a tricky thing. you'll never ever nail it with the flat appliance of good and evil. it is far too complex for that. the only area which you should never ever compromise in (except with what you are essentially capable of doing at that moment) is art.

  22. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Well, yeah. But you surely arent suggesting that Sidious was in fact doing the right and good thing in oppressing the galaxy with his Empire...or are you?

    If I committ evil but think its good, that doesnt make it good. It makes me wrong.


    Not sure I understand your point here.

    Ok, now you have really lost me. Please explain the relevance of this.


    Well, if a situation of this kind arises (which wouldnt be very often) all you can do is what you believe to be right. If you are a good person, it may be a tough choice and cause suffering but your intention would be good and the outcome may be positive in some areas. But if you are a bad person then you arnt doing it for the right reasons and the outcome will always be negative.

    Except the Jedi know why the Sith are the way they are. They are consumed by hate, anger, aggression and greed. They only want more power. They are obsessed with it. They arent looking out for others. They seek to destroy others to gain power. Thats what a Sith is. Lucas wrote them this way. If a Jedi was to compromise with such a person they would be as guilty as the Sith. They have to fight this evil else they will be compromising the peace of the galaxy.

    The Jedi can see the Sith POV. They just know its bad...which it is.

    In real life definitly. But with the Sith? With Sidious? That specific dark lord was described as irredeemable. Blacker than black. He is evil personified. Evil as a word means very little. Its what makes some evil that counts. And Sidious has it all. He is total greed. Total anger. Total hate. Total selfishness.

    Compare that with Yoda who has devoted his life to ensuring the galaxy is safe and peaceful. He lived a selfless life for 900yrs. He is whiter than white. The only mistakes he made were made with the right intentions. He never sought personal power. He simply wanted to help the Republic and serve the force.

    Thats the difference.
  23. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    yes, master shaitan, the fundamentel difference between us boils down to you saying, if i am a good person i will make right choices, and i say this is nonsense. :)

    so, sorry, nothing more to say.
  24. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I didnt say that. I just said you wouldnt make choices based on your own empowerment if you are a good person, like a Jedi. Bad people, like the Sith, make choices for these reasons (more power) and thus will never be the right choice and will always have a negative effect.

  25. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    I don't see Sidious operating in shades of grey...but I do see him speaking it, which is misleading.

    He wants the Jedi Order wiped out, he wants to rule the Galaxy, he wants Unlimited Power.
    To recruit others to believe him, he has become a Master of doublespeak.

    He is not listening to the Living Force, he desires to control the Force.
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