"Be mindful of the Living Force"

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Cryogenic, Jul 8, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2005
    star 3
    Sure. that was arrogant of Mace. But it didnt really change anything. The Jedi couldnt feel the Sith's presence at that time. Thats not their fault.

    I appease with that and can agree to some extent. But when Qui Gon (bless his soul ;)) tells them that the attacker was a Sith lord, the warning signs should have reached at least the green flag. Yet, they brush him off (granted at first). I know you don?t want to blame the Jedi but we can see the reason why even at this point, they have huge doubt things are slipping but what happens later?

    We see Yoda (look into the future), when examining Anakin but what happened to the expense of the moment? To me this searching the future when a child is showing distinct Force ability, is a lapse of concentrating on the ?living force?. Qui Gon insists that the Council must ?see it? now.

    Naturally he?s not part of the Council as well, because they don?t ?do as they must? when the signs are there. The Council however do act eventually but they stagnate and this is a problem too long after all these years. Hence fail to use the Force clearly, and that blocks the sense of the Darkside approaching.

    But Jedi arrogance doesn?t effect the balance of the force. The jedi NEVER abuse the force for their own purposes. They do whats right for the galaxy and the force. Balance was restored when the sith were destroyed.

    Correct. They don?t abuse it and they shouldn?t. However they still don?t see. Yoda admits 10 years later ?blind we are?. But this an admittance too late.

    The Jedi arent ever eroding the balance of the force. They are looking to maintain it. Arrogance doesnt effect balance. Greed, anger, aggression, hate and selfishness does. Thats what makes a sith. And its the sith who use the force for their own means.

    But Yoda says arrogance is indeed a flaw. It cannot be denied. Shouldn?t the Jedi fix this flaw? You tell me. [face_devil]


    How can they? They dont know the truth. The Sith have been very clever and it seems that they are behind the separatists. The Jedi have to fight that war. They had no choice. But they knew also that if they told the senate that they couldn?t use the force to its full potential then more and more people would see the weakness and rise up against them.

    Its not about keeping their power for their own sake. its about staying alive so they can protect the republic.


    I agree with you here. Its too late wasn?t it? Obi Wan admits that the Jedi were misled by a lie. Allowing the Republic to be controlled by a Sith Lord.

    I know. But that doesnt mean the Jedi shouldnt use lightsabers. Luke throwing down his weapon was right for HIM in that MOMENT. Jedi need light sabers to protect themselves and defend the republic.

    Agreed.

    All I am saying is that ONLY Anakin was to bring the Force back into balance. Luke at the right time showed what a Jedi SHOULD do. Killing Sidious (by Mace) would not have allowed the Jedi to learn from their mistakes. Obi Wan had to make way (he did it voluntarily) , Yoda had to make way (strong but not that strong), sadly for Mace had to ?make way? but instead decided to stop everything right there and then. But when would the Jedi learn their lesson?

    Yoda realized that the Jedi had to go into exile. He realized it was no USE in fighting (see how he walks away from Sidious) till he learns more about the Force (through meditation). He was rewarded by way of being contacted by Qui Gon.
  2. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I hear what you are saying DarthClandestine, but I think you are being slightly unfair on the Jedi. It seems to be the blame you are putting on them is based on two things:

    Firstly, their arrogance. Thats fine. Arrogance was spreading and it was certainly a flaw. However, it was something that happens to all big organisations that have no or little competition. Complacency comes in and before you know it you have been shafted. But I don't see that as the reason the Jedi were destroyed. I think the times where they were arrogant didn't effect the state of play that much. The Sith were indeed well hidden and it was always going to be a hard thing accepting they had returned.

    Secondly, this idea that they are at faulty because they didn't know what was going on. That to me is all down to the Sith. The Jedi's vision was clouded. The Dark Side fogged up the force. The Sith had remained hidden for 1000yrs and come up with a master plan og ingenuity that worked against anything the Jedi could do.

    Its like I said, the Jedi weren't bad at what they did. The Sith were just better (in the PT anyhow) at what they did. But even then, The Jedi would have won had Anakin not attacked Mace.

    MS - I know. But that doesnt mean the Jedi shouldnt use lightsabers. Luke throwing down his weapon was right for HIM in that MOMENT. Jedi need light sabers to protect themselves and defend the republic.

    Thats what the prophecy said. But that could have turned out to be false. The prophecy wasnt in control. The characters were. They choose what to do. Mace could and would have killed Sidious.

    What mistakes? They already knew they were arrogant. that would be dealt with. As for everything else, that would be restored with the death of the sith. They would be able to use the force to their maximum potential again. Seriously, what else would they learn? What would change?

    What lesson?

    Thats not why. He realised that he had failed - the republic had already fallen. He had to go into exile until the time was right to do something - once the rebellion had gained power and once the kids were brought back to them to do something.
  3. DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2005
    star 3
    To make it short and sweet

    What lesson?

    Not listening to the Will of the Force closely enough.

    Thats not why. He realised that he had failed - the republic had already fallen.

    Then why did he face Sidious in the first place at his chambers when the Republic had already fallen?
  4. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Got any examples?

    And remember - the force was clouded by the dark side.

    Because he had to try and destroy the sith anyway - republic or no republic, the destruction of the sith is always neccesary. But he failed at that. But its mainly during his battle with Sidious (or more accurately, when he gets beat) that he realises that the republic is no more.
  5. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    if destroying the sith is such a high priority why did they just dissapear for 20 years and not try again?
  6. DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2005
    star 3
    Got any examples?

    And remember - the force was clouded by the dark side.


    I believe the Jedi could not fathom the Sith EVER coming back. The prophecy to bring balance to the Force was kept on the back burner, and for this Darkside began influencing the Force. What the Jedi didn?t know was a time of suffering was around the corner.

    The interesting part is that Qui Gon and Obi Wan felt a disturbance in the Force (when Maul/Sidious were planning on taking the Queen back to Naboo). And after the attack by Maul, Qui Gon had to tell the all respected Council that the situation has become much more complicated. The Jedi Council in their ?ivory towers? seemed to take things too lightly not to realize the disturbance in the Force.

    Therefore, I would also say that prior to the events of TPM the Jedi already harmed their responsiveness to the Darkside. Only after the events of TPM they started taking things more seriously by allowing Anakin to be trained. Im not condoning that the Jedi should be punished but rather they let themselves fall into the state the Republic has enveloped itself to. All the Jedi now have left is to protect the Republic without much ability to use the Force as guidance as they are capable of.
    Furthermore with regards to the ?records? in the library, they later find that it had been actually erased right under the Jedi?s noses. When this actually happen is fuzzy of course. Note that through mind of a child (and it happened to be one of the younglings who were training, who were ?feeling the force around you? tell Obi Wan exactly why the planet wasn?t there. Again this tells me the older Jedi despite their teachings, have themselves forgotten to ?feel the Force? or read the ?will of the Force? in the right way.

    Because he had to try and destroy the sith anyway - republic or no republic, the destruction of the sith is always neccesary. But he failed at that. But its mainly during his battle with Sidious (or more accurately, when he gets beat) that he realises that the republic is no more.

    Yes, they wanted to destroy the Sith, but this attitude has come with dire consequences. Yoda probably knows (has it has been stipulated in the Senate away) that even if the Jedi did kill Sidious they were already in the Senate?s eyes trying to amass a rebellion.

    There was the very likely hood of Yoda and Obi Wan being massacred (as Sidious mandated that the Jedi will be hunted down while the Senate applauded the creation of the Galactic Empire). Obi Wan and Yoda already recalibrated the code warning after that but they chose to stay and destroy the remaining Sith when the Galactic Empire was well in place.

    Yoda and Obi Wan are too focused on destroying the Sith than look back and realize they need to regroup for another time instead of raising their swords to face the Sith. Yoda proves in ESB that Luke didn't need the sword when he was going to a Darkside place. Luke thought otherwise and what happens? He HAS to use the sword to fight an apparation of Vader.

    So when Luke throws the sword away, that signalled the end of the Sith. Yoda said "only what you take with you". Thanks to Yoda who has learnt from the past mistakes.











  7. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    But again, this isn't something the Jedi could know. And I think you are putting way too much heed in a prophecy, to which for the Jedi, meant very little.

    I mean, there were probably loads of prophesies made. This one may have been more known of. But it was only a prophecy. And as we know, these usually turn out to be false!

    But as soon as the prophecy seems to be coming true, the Jedi do act. But they sensibly act with caution. Its far to risky putting all your faith into a prophecy when the future is "always in motion". You can't just sit around and wait for the prophechy to take place. You have to act yourselves.

    Put yourself in the sitaution of the Jedi. Wouldnt you feel the same about the sith if you believed them to be extinct. I mean, we're not talking about a dark sider here. We're talking about the Sith organisation - the one the Jedi believed they have destroyed 1000yrs ago. If you flushed your goldfish down the toilet wouldnt you be sceptical about being told that it was back in its goldfish bowl?

    Of course you would. The thing was, the Sith tricked the Jedi into thinking they had been destroyed.
    They weren't.
    Someone just took the goldfish out of the toilet before you knew!

    But wouldn't you be? Its not their fault that they didnt feel the disturbance. And qui gon is well known for his maverick ways. And like I said, they believed the SITH were destroyed. So they first thought it was some kind of 'Dark Warrior/assassin'. But once the facts are shown the Jedi take heed of it and start to act.

    The Sith had changed though. They had adapted. So not only did the Jedi believe the Sith Order to be destroyed, but on top of that the dark side is "hard to see" and it clouds the force. The Jedi never stood a chance of getting ahead of the game. The Sith were always one step in front. But that isnt the Jedi's fault. How were they to know?

    But its Yoda who is instructing the youngling to act this way...
    Besides, the youngling only came to this conclusion after he saw the 'map reader'.
    Obi wan wasnt privy to that. Im sure given the chance to use his feelings after seeing the planet wasnt where it was supposed to be he would come to that
  8. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    Why did the Jedi assume that the only way to bring balance to the Force was to destroy the Sith or evil altogether? The prophecy about bringing balance was already known to them before they had even became aware of the Sith's presence. If they believed that the Sith did not exist before TPM, why did they believe there was no balance to the Force?

    In his essay, "The Force, the Tao and the Butterfly", Paul McDonald(http://www.scifidimensions.com/Jun01/forcetaobutterfly.htm) says the following:

    "To make matters more complicated, the Force breaks down into two opposing sides. The light side is based on peace and knowledge and is embraced by the Jedi, and the dark centers around fear and anger and is championed by the Sith. The conflicting energies of the Force provide a dynamic friction that plays a large role in shaping the galaxy itself."

    He also adds:

    "The Tao itself is a confounding concept. It is roughly translated as the "way," but cannot really be interpreted by any language, including Chinese. Most agree that the Tao is a kind of monistic principle at the heart of everything, out of which life flows, and back into which it returns. With a radical emphasis on nature and the individual, the Tao has often been seen as the underlying unity beyond the world of opposites. In the field of space and time, it is represented by the famous Tai Chi symbol, a circle half-light and half-dark, speaking of the ancient Chinese concepts of yin and yang. Yet the awareness invoked by returning to the true, eternal Tao is the awareness that this dichotomy is illusionary, and allows one to embrace each of the opposites without being consumed by either. Lao Tsu writes of it as returning "to the state of the uncarved block."

    In the Star Wars galaxy, the light and dark sides of the Force have traditionally been viewed as irreconcilable opposites. The contradictory energies have always been pitted against one another, with the symbiosis of the Jedi way contrasting with the parasitism of the Sith lords. The old Obi-Wan Kenobi first introduced audiences, as well as his young protege Luke Skywalker, to the mystical reality of the Force. In so doing, he also tells of the dark side and how it seduced Darth Vader. The next teacher in the original trilogy is Yoda, who likewise constantly warns to "beware the dark side."

    While there are certainly aspects of Taoism in the original movies - in particular, Yoda meeting his death with passive calm and reference to twilight falling evokes Chuang Tzu - it is in The Phantom Menace that this philosophy becomes really important. Three vital new elements are introduced to the Force mythology that will no doubt have great repercussions in the episodes to come. The first is Qui-Gon Jinn, who is often at odds with his Jedi contemporaries, the next is the endowing of the Force with a will, and the last is the prophecy of the Chosen One."


    The next few paragraphs really caught my interest:

    "Qui-Gon Jinn, like Chuang Tzu, elected to walk the sagely path rather than to take a seat in government and become mired in bureaucracy. He stands as a curious figure, a wise and compassionate Jedi Master, yet one who is deemed a
    maverick by those in power. Likewise, he seems to have a different perception of the Force altogether.

    Always confident that "the Force will guide us," Qui-Gon follows his own path which takes him to Anakin Skywalker on Tatooine. All the Jedi have such faith, but unlike them, Qui-Gon never lectures on the light side and the dark one. Also unique is his sense that the Force has a will of its own, which perhaps implies a conscious entity."


    Were the Jedi correct that the only way to bring balance was to destroy the Sith? Or could there have been other ways to achieve that balance? I suspect that there are no clear answers.

  9. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    They belived the force was balanced at the start of TPM. But when the Sith reveal themselves they see that its beginning to slip. The problem was that they couldnt feel it before because the Sith had remained in the shadows.

    You have to remember that the prophecy only became a talking point AFTER the balance was felt to slip.

    Thats interesting
  10. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    They belived the force was balanced at the start of TPM.

    Why would there even be a prophecy about someone bringing balance to the Force around a time when the Jedi believed that that Sith no longer existed?


    Qui Gon was just more of a maverick and took risks. He followed the will of the force blindy (more blindy!) and thats why his choices were dangerous. It turned out right in the end. But it was still dangerous.

    Life is dangerous. Period. Safety does not really exist in this world. You take a chance with your life the moment you awaken from sleep.
  11. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    They belived the force was balanced at the start of TPM.

    Why do you think this?
  12. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    They seemed to know all about the prophecy in TPM. Why would any Jedi make such a prophecy about the Force at a time when the Jedi no longer believed that the Sith existed?

    And why do so many people believe that "balance" can only be achieved without the presence of darkness of any kind? Is this a desire of humans to have an easy and serene life?
  13. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    I think balance is brought when the Sith are destroyed because Lucas has said it and implied it through out numerous interviews to such a point that I accept it. I do however think that balance may not have been the best choice of words as it can lead people to assume that it's a numbers game when it seems to be more that the Sith are like a cancer(something which Lucas has explicitly stated in an interview.)


    If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we have balanced these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces. All of this shall be explained in Episode 2, so I can't say any more!
    - CUT interview 09/07/99


    I think it is obvious that Qui-Gon was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The Phantom Menace refers to the force of the dark side of the Universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction, and Qui-Gonn are correct - Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrfice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor.
    - CUT interview 09/07/99


    "It really has to do with learning," Lucas says(regarding the end of Anakin's story). "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love - primarily the Emperor - and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

    "As evil begins to take over, it pushes the Force out of balance. It's easier to succumb to evil than it is to be a hero and try to work things through on the good side. Evil is inherently more powerful?it doesn't have the burden of worrying about other people. What Luke sees in Darth Vader at the end of ROTJ is something that I thought was worth understanding: the idea that Darth actually was a very good person. Except he's slightly more powerful than other people and when you get into that situation, your ability to do evil is much easier to come by."
    --George Lucas


    "Which brings us to films 4, 5 and 6, where Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."
    --George Lucas


    ?The sad thing is Padme says there is still good in him and Luke says in ROTJ there is good in you. Its recurring. There is good in him. And that will bring balance to the force. He needs to get rid of the Sith and bring balance to the force? - GL
  14. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    What makes you think the prophecy was a big thing? It only became a talking point once the imbalance was felt - "hmmm, that old prophecy thats in the archives about a chosen bringing balance one may be true after all".

    On top of this, there isn't a time limit on the prophecy. It could happen at any time. The Jedi, if they took it seriously, would think that an imbalance would occur sometime in the future. It must be a larger prophecy after all. For a chosen one to bring balance dark times must come first. But the jedi wouldn't and shouldn't live by that. If they did nothing - sure, it would happen. But prophesies arent absolute ("Always in motion is the future"). The Jedi believed they were in control and the Sith destroyed. They were perhaps arrogant in thinking that this prophesy at this time wouldn't come into play.

    But before and at the start of TPM they couldnt feel it - the imbalance. Only when the Sith emerged did they see it was beginning to slip.

    Sure. But lets keep this in context. It could be said that Qui Gon seemed to be taking an unnecessary risk. But yeah, we all have to take a risk now and again. I have no qualms with that.
  15. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Because they didn't feel the Sith's presence and the imbalance wasn't that great at the time. I see it like a dam. At the start of TPM there was a small hole in the dam. Barely noticable. But the water was leaking nevertheless. Come the end of TPM and up to and beyond ROTS the dam was burst and destroyed everything in its way.

    Only Qui Gon really believed there was an imbalance and that was because he 'knew' it was the Sith who had returned and truly believed Anakin was this prophesised chosen one.

    Come AOTC the other Jedi see that Qui Gon was right - the balance was slipping and Anakin may be the one who can restore it.

    But if you look at it from the Jedi's POV at the start of TPM - they believed the Sith to be extinct, there didn't seem to be a huge problem with the Naboo conflict (until it erupted of course) and the Jedi Order was doing well. To them, all seemed fine. Balanced.

    Then the Sith are revealed. Anakin emerges. Conflict breaks out. This is when they see the balance is slipping and that they have to stop the Sith again.
  16. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Because it was a prophecy. A person, of some esteem I would think, had a vision or whatever and recorded it - current circumstances matter not. Thats what was seen.
    It was known by other Jedi, but how much so? Perhaps only a few older masters who had studied it knew of this prophecy? I never got the impression that it was all that known by the entire order. They may have come across it in their studies at some point. It only becomes central when the force is seen to slip out of balance. I don't think it was something that the Jedi based their lives around. It was just one piece of information that was held within the vast Jedi archives.

    Its not the absence of darkness. Its the absence of the Sith who corrupt the force and that which creates the force.
  17. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    Isn't the Force supposed to represent life in the saga? If so, how could the presence of the Sith be SOLELY responsible for the corruption of the Force? I'm sorry, but I find that hard to believe. I feel quite certain there were other beings, organizations, etc. that may have contributed to the corruption of the Force. Considering what they had become by the beginning of TPM, I would also include the Jedi Order, as well.

    Sometimes, I feel that the Jedi consider the Sith an embarrassment, since it was a rogue Jedi knight that had founded the Sith Order, eventually ruled by Palpatine.
  18. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    The force is created by all living things. Sure, outside influences can effect these living things as well, but its the Sith that a) Bring about most of this 'corruption' and b) who manipulate the force itself for their own means.

    Thats what we're talking about "Balance of THE FORCE". Its the dark side that fogs up the force. Its the Sith that manipulate the force and go against it's will to get their own way.

    I think that may be underplaying it a little. Im sure the Jedi are always concerned about how the Sith Order began and the possibility of other Jedi turning to the dark side. I wouldnt call it embarrassment because that suggests pride and ego which aren't things Jedi should or would be harbouring. But I would certainly agree that they would be concerned by this and understand the ripple effect that occurs when a Jedi leaves the Order and turns to the dark side or creates problems in the galaxy. They know it shapes the way the public see them.
  19. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    The "Darkness" is part of the Force. That is why it is called "The Dark SIDE of the Force". If you take away the dark side, the Force is not at it's full potential. Has it ever occured to you that there is light and darkness in all living things, whether we're talking about people, other animals, plants and the elements? To suppress or to destroy one half is to create an unbalance in all living things. Why is that so hard for society to accept? Or do they prefer the illusion that living in ONLY the light, will make the world better or perfect?
  20. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    That's something that Palpatine would...no, does, say.

    Yes, light and dark co-exist. They always will. You can't ever eradicate evil. Like you can't ever eradicate good. But that does not mean you have to "use both" to keep a balance. If the good guys started to use their own darkness then evil will take over. Thats why people like the Jedi have to be whiter than white. They have to let go of all their dark emotions and live a life of compassionate selfless service. That's what we have to remember here - we are talking about Jedi Knights. Not every day folk. For a Jedi, darker emotions are just far too dangerous.

    "With great power comes great responsibility".

    The balance between light and dark will always exist. But the Sith corrupt that balance by increasing the darkness. The Jedi don't create light however. They simply maintain it and attempt to do the same with the entire balance by doing away with the Sith.

    The Force is the Force. Its the Jedi and Sith who "create" the light and dark side of it. All that is, is their emotions and feelings. The Dark Side of the force is anger, fear, aggression, hate, greed etc. When you harbour these feelings and use the force you are corrupting it. Using the dark side. The light side is selflessness, compassion and love.

    The Force is just a mystical energy field created by all living things. Its a pool of knowledge, power and energy to which any force user can tap into.

    Look at it like a farm. Now, the Jedi are the farmers who look after the farm. They harevst it. Make sure the crops are growing and are maintained. They ensure the farm and its crops are balanced and grows as much as it yields. That way people are always fed and the farm will always grow food.

    The Sith however are the parasites. They simply come along to eat all the crops on the farm. They don't look to keep it balanced. They just want to eat for their own ends.

    That's how the light and dark side works. The Force is just an energy field to tap into or listen to, like a farm is just a field with crops in. Its the force users who create the light and dark side and with that decide what to do with the energy field...or farm.
  21. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    i agree with RamRed, the sith are a cancer but the jedi were just as much a part of the problem at the begining of TPM as the sith were.

    They and their supposed 'light side' practices ignored human nature.

    They pretended the duplicitous nature of man could be changed through certain practices and ignoring attatchments, it was their down fall.

    Yoda's attatchments started the clone wars and let Dooku escape, Yoda single handedly started a war that killed how many thousands or millions to save 200 jedi he cared about.

    Telling Anakin to ignore his attachments instead of learning to grieve and deal with loss cost the jedi their existance as an order.

    i would submit to you that telling a man to ignore his heart is every bit as callous and evil as anything Sidious ever did.

    To me the most interesting thing you posted is this:

    The Force is the Force. Its the Jedi and Sith who "create" the light and dark side of it. All that is, is their emotions and feelings. The Dark Side of the force is anger, fear, aggression, hate, greed etc. When you harbour these feelings and use the force you are corrupting it. Using the dark side. The light side is selflessness, compassion and love.

    how can you say such a thing and think that a human heart can feel the
  22. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Its that kind of comment that amazes me. The Sith exist to gain their own power. They manipulate people and the force to achieve this. They only think of themselves.

    The Jedi do the opposite. They exist to serve others and the force. They only care about other people. Thats how it was at the start of TPM.

    What were the Jedi doing wrong at the start of TPM? What bad things would have happened if the Sith weren't about, plotting how to control the galaxy and increase corrupion etc?

    No. It just controlled the darker side of it.

    Huh? Are you saying that Jedi should have attachments? Attachments that they would fear losing? Are you saying it would be a good thing for Jedi to be tempted by the dark side?

    And these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. - George Lucas

    "The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth," he continues. "They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people - in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments". - George Lucas

    Their downfall was due to Anakin not letting go of his own attachments!

    WHAT?! "Yoda started the war!"???. I suppose Sidious had nothing to do with it?! Im sorry, but this makes no sense to me what so ever. Yoda had to bring the clones to fight the war. If he didnt the Jedi would have been seen as traitors at that point. The Seperatists would have taken over the galaxy. The Jedi knew the Sith were behind the Seperatists. The Jedi HAD TO FIGHT.

    Yoda saved Obi Wan and Anakin because it was the right thing to do. If he didn't save them you would be going on about how he rejetced his human emotions.

    No. He told Anakin exactly the right thing. It was Anakin's fault for not listening to him. Had Anakin let go of his fear of loss, Padme wouldnt have died.

    He didn't say that. He told him that he needed to train himself to let go of everything he feared losing. Love is central to a Jedi's life. But the situation Anakin put himself in, of which Yoda was unaware, was bad. It was dangerous. Yoda was trying to help Anakin become a better Jedi. Anakin rejected this advice because he wanted more - he was in the wrong...and he knew it:

    "Im not the Jedi I should be".

    It can feel the bad emotions. But Jedi train temselves to deal with it. If a Jedi becomes attached they let go. They need to be strong. Anakin wasnt. He held on to his due to gr
  23. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    wow could you put them any higher on a blind pedistal?

    i don't have time to point by point respond but i will later today.

    you proceed from a false assumtion that Sidious and Anakin took the jedi down, they couldn't do that, there are only two of them.

    if they stuck to their core values they wouldn't have been obeying the senate without question, they wouldn't have been fighting a war and wouldn't have been wiped out in the first place.

    i can't wait to rebutt all off that, soon as i can, too bad i'm being paid to work atm = (
  24. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Like there was only two Jedi...and then one in the OT whom took the Sith and Empire down. Luke had the Rebels. Sidious had the Clones.

    Their core values are about protecting the republic and democracy. To do this they HAVE to serve a senate else they wouldnt be protecting democracy. It wasnt their fault the senate was corrupted by the sith. If it wasnt then there would have been harmony and peace like there had been for 1000yrs...until the Sith returned.

    Oh right. So they would have just let the seperatists take over the republic. They would have refused to fight and be seen as traitors. Palpatine would just forget about order 66.

    Im away today but will greatly look forward to your rebuke of which I will reply to tomorrow.
  25. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    i give up, we're polar opposites.

    I don't try to say that the jedi weren't in a no win situation.

    they were but they put themselves there.

    i don't think the jedi should have been serving the senate in the first place if they wanted to walk the line that QG was spouting as philosophy in TPM.

    It seems to me they laid the seeds that destroyed them. i'll try to find concentration and time to debate but i accept that we're never going to see it the same way.

    when you pick appart thoughts like that it's difficult because one line relates to the next, isolated they lose context and make it hard to support a train of thought.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.