"Be mindful of the Living Force"

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Cryogenic, Jul 8, 2006.

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  1. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Well, what should they be doing then? And Qui Gon served the senate himself - he was the first jedi we see go on a mission ordered by the supreme chancellor! The only thing was, that due to his maverick ways he would never make it on to the council as he was unorthodox from time to time - nothing to do with serving the Senate.

    The Jedi stand for democracy. If they were an independant order then they wouldn't be adhereing to the rules of the democracy. They would do what they thought was right and what they wanted. It would go against democracy.

    The only thing they can do and the best thing they can do is serve a senate which expresses the views of the galaxy. The problem occurs when the senate becomes corrupted - mainly through the plotting of the Sith, and the Jedi end up working for the wrong guys. Then they have to destroy the Sith and take out the corruption and go back to serving a just and honourable senate. Thats something they managed to achieve for a 1000yrs before the Sith re-ermged and took it away from them. They would have destroyed the Sith and got it back sooner had it not been for Anakin.
  2. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    one has nothing to do with the other. you can't maintain honestly, integrity and serve a political organization. By it's very nature a political organization always twists the truth to serve it's own ends.

    let me be blunt. The jedi could have served the republic and the greater good without serving the senate. they should have remained independent.

    the jedi have nothing to do with democracy, in fact they don't follow democracy themselves. they are lead by a council, not all the council members even have votes. the vast majority of the jedi don't have votes and the council selects its own members. that's about as undemocratic as you can get. an elite ruling body that selects other members to rule with them is not in any way to be confused with a democracy.

    the jedi believe in democracy for the galaxy, they protect honor and serve a democracy, they don't practice it.

    i dont' know where you even came up with this idea, is it in a book or something?

    all political bodies are always corrupt, the sentate was corrupt long before palpantine came along. that's politics. he exploited the problem he did not create it, he couldn't have.

    what did the sith do, rig every election till they got enough of the politicans they wanted to create a corrupt senate, sorry didn't happen in the films i saw at least.

    it is testimony to how well the republic was set up that it took 1000 years for the senate to compeltely become disfunctional because of it's politics and corruption.

    you have mistaken this for the senate not being corrupt for a thousand years and suddenly it became corrupt, that's not very realistic.

    don't remind me these are aliens, the movies were made by humans to be watched by humans and interpreted by us.

    human nature is that each person will acrue power unto himself, and politicans are going to be corrupt because they need to look out for their own interests finding a virtuous politician is like finding a pink flying elephant, it doesn't exist.

    Kenobi makes this clear in RotS.

    No the senate had been corrupt for hundreds of years at least, the sith took advantage of the ever growing corruption of politics, but they did not create it.
  3. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    "My alliegance is to the republic...to democracy!" - OWK, ROTS.

    Will discuss this further later. Have just torn my foot ligaments and a in *Mustafa Austin Powers voice* "quite a lot of pain".
  4. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    ok but he talks about how "politicians are not to be trusted" "their allegence is to pleasing their constituans" things like that which imply they are not to be trusted.

    that quote is out of context.

    he was compairing the senate to an empire, of course the senate is better.

    but the jedi are not democratic nor should they be.
  5. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    But that line from kenobi was during AOTC when corruption was growing and politicans weren't looked upon kindly. But even so, Kenobi isn't saying that they shouldnt serve the senate or democracy - just dont get too close to politicans.

    I think the Jedi are very democratic. They serve the Republic and senate - which is voted for by the people. They vote for decisions themselves within the order and council. There isn't on leader of the Jedi Order.
  6. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    i saw no evidence of this at all.

    what i did see was 3 members of the council would come to a consensus and mace would make a declaration.

    even those 3 members need not agree to get a declaration though it appears because yoda is dead set against training anakin at the end of TPM and they do it anyway.

    i don't see any democracy at all in the jedi.

    they serve and protect it for others i agree and the loyalty is to the republic, a democratic form of government instead of the empire, a dictatorship. no argumetn there.

    i just dont' see the jedi practicing democracy.
  7. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    the Jedi aren't a democratic institution, not by a long shot. They aren't democratically elected, their council isn't democratically elected, and not even the decision within the council are reached democratically, as the case of Yoda going to Kashyyyk in ROTS showed.
    They aren't appointed or controlled by a democratically elected body that is part of the government, they even are reluctant to accept a representative of the democratically elected government on their council, even though they are in command of the republic's army. There's not one single democratic state in our world where the army is controlled by a body not controlled by the elected government. And I'm convinced that this has been designed by Lucas this way deliberately. The Jedi are in a very precarious position, a position quite ideal for attempting a military putsch - and this position was very successfully exploited by Palpatine.
  8. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    They are democratically accepted though. You cant judge how much of a democratic order they are by talking about how their members become part of the council. That couldn't be elected. It could end up with Padawans being voted for! Yoda going to Kashyyyk didn't need to undergo a vote. It was a good idea and they were in a time of war where such decisions needed to be made swiftly. Yoda is a good guy. He was the best choice. For a different matter, i.e. where Grievous was discovered to be on Utapau, the council voted.

    Yes they are - they serve the senate. They do what the supreme chancellor says.

    You are taking that way out of context. Palpatine couldn't be trusted. Anakin wasn't ready. It was a time of war.

    Palpatine asked/commanded the Jedi to lead the army.

    I dont see it like that myself. I see that the Jedi were doing all they could and exactly the right thing and the Sith using their spin to turn it against them.
  9. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    irrelevant. In a democratic body any decision has to be voted upon, whether the guy is supposed to be a good guy or not.

    I see no evidence for this whatsoever. They serve the senate, voluntarily. They aren't under the control of a democratically elected body, in the sense that they could have been dissolved if that body thought it necessary. And in the case of Palpatine, they obviously did not do what the supreme chancellor says.

    again: irrelevant. If they are a democratic institution, they have to accept control on the part of the democratically elected government, whether they find it trustworthy or not. They aren't above the law, or the vote of the people. In a democracy, the people are deciding, as Sio Bibble so approbriately stated, not the Trade Federation, and not the Jedi. And the people had elected Palpatine.

    Did he? Could you provide me with the evidence on this?

    This is not about what they could and wanted have done, but about their institional position - and position up probably isn't due to their own action. It probably has just evolved into what it was in the Republic. Nevertheless it is a weak point and a point that provides the target for criticism. And this weak point was exploited by Palpatine.
  10. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I recommend you read this prologue at the start of Shatterpoint which was written by George Lucas himself:

    For a thousand years, the Old Republic prospered and grew under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the venerable Jedi Knights. But as often happens when wealth and power grow beyond all reasonable proportion, an evil fueled by greed arose. The massive organs of commerce mushroomed in power, the Senate became corrupt, and an ambitious named Palpatine was voted Supreme Chancellor. Most disturbingly, the Dark Lords of the Sith reappeared, after a thousand years of seeming absence.

    In the midst of this turmoil, a separatist movement was formed under the leadership of the charismatic former Jedi Count Dooku by promising an alternative to the corruption and greed that was rotting the Republic from within, Dooku was able to persuade thousands of star systems to secede from the Republic. Unbeknownst to most of his followers, Dooku was himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, acting in collusion with his master, Darth Sidious, who, over the years, had struck an unholy alliance with the greater forces of commerce and their private droid armies.

    The turning point came when Count Dooku lured the unsuspecting Jedi into a trap on the desolate planet of Geonosis. Having just discovered the existence of a clone army that had been secretly commissioned for the Republic ten years earlier, the Jedi were well prepared whenthey confronted the Separatists on Geonosis, but their victory in thatheated battle was pyrric. It would prove to be merely the opening salvo in a war that would spread like fire across the galaxy and engulf thousands of star systems in the legendary Clone Wars.

    Having already been granted emergency powers in the face of the growing threat, Chancellor Palpatine used his ironclad grip on the Senate to seize even greater authority, all in the name of security. To address the urgent military needs of the Republic, he enlisted the Jedi Knights as generals to command the Clone Army. The Jedi valiantly accepted their assignment, though never having served as military commanders, they were unaccustomed to the wages of war. Their ranks, once sufficient to serve as the guardians of peace and justice, were spread periously thin in the face of this unthinkable challenge. Their relationship with Palpatine grew strained. At the same time, they felt their own power waning even as their most promising new apprentice completed his training and stood poised to fulfill his destiny as the Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force.

    The Clone Wars raged for three long years, tearing the Republic apart and spawning countless tales of heroism, bravery, treachery, and betrayal as both sides fought to defend their ideals. As dedicated as the Separatists were in their resolve to create a new order to replace the failing Republic, the Jedi were equally determined to preserve the Republic and defeat the Sith, who they understood all too well were the masterminds of the Separatist movement. They still believed in the Republic, still deemed it a Republic worth saving. Their faith, which gave them superhuman strength in the face of mind-boggling power of the enemy, had yet to be shaken.

    ---------------------

    This quotes is also helpful:

    I didn't want Vader to be all-powerful. In the first film it was very easy to make him some kind of superhero. But I decided not to do that. In fact, he is one of the Dark Lords who is working for the Emperor, and he has to do the Emperor's bidding. You will see at some point in the future that the Jedi have the same relationship to the Republic; they're like public servants, they're like marshals or policemen. They basically do what they're told to do. They're not independent agents who can do whatever they want. In the case of the Jedi, they work for the Republic, and in the case of the Sith Lords, they work for the Empire. So I obviously didn't want to make Vader to weak, but I didn't want to make him so he was in charge of everything. That's why
  11. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    The mere fact that they have chosen to serve the Republic doesn't make the Jedi a democratic insitution, neither does the fact that the Republic is corrupt. A democratic institution is either elected by the general public or appointed and controlled by a democratically elected body and can be dissolved by it. Their internal structure isn't democratic either since the council itself isn't elected democratically. Take a look in any basic textbook on politics what a democratic institution is and it will confirm you this.
  12. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Ok, so the Jedi Order itself is not an elected body. But then neither is any organisation. The Catholic Church, The Church of England etc aren't democratically elected either. Hell, political organisations aren't created through elections or votes. They are simply a group of people who have come together to act for or against democracy. Elections and votes are to do with who gets to make the decisions. Who gets the power etc.

    And for the Jedi, deomcracy exists within the order itself and on top of this they take orders from the democratically elected Chancellor. This ensures that the Jedi are in fact carrying out the work for the people.

    You say when someone or a group chooses to serve it doesn't make them a democratic institution? That doesn't make sense to me. Its beside the point. The foundation of a group has nothing to do with democracy. In fact, its democracy which allows them to do it!

    The Jedi Order is a democratic institution. It acts for democracy and serves a democratically elected Senate.

    But there are times, as we have seen in the real world, where democracy collapses. When this happens you have to act to restore it. Thats why if (and when!) the democracy fails in the galaxy, the Jedi Order would still exist despite not having an elected body to serve. But they would do so to help restore democracy, all so they can go back to serving it.
  13. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Apologies, forgot to reply to this sooner.[face_peace]

    I don't buy that. Granted, its normally the case. But there are times, and we're talking about fantasy here, when a political ideal can work. It did so in the Star Wars galaxy for nigh on 1000yrs.

    And had they done so they would have been going against democracy. They would be acting just like the Sith do. Why do the Jedi exist? Answer: To protect the Republic and democracy. Well, should they go independant from this they wouldnt be acting democratically.

    Its a complicated galaxy as it is a complicated world. The jedi couldn't just trvael around the galaxy with their lazerswords doing what they wanted. They needed the political organisation to lead the way, otherwise there would be all kinds of problems erupting.

    And what other way is there? Its a unique situation. Only the wisest, most powerful and honourable jedi can join the council. Those that get to this point are elected and then can elect other Jedi themselves.

    How can you say this? They serve the Republic! The very first thing we see is the Jedi acting on behalf of the Chancellor! They fight for democracy but they also live by it too. If they didnt, then they would be this independant organisation that you are talking about.

    What I see on screen and what GL has said - see quotes above.

    This is where you have missed the point - see prologue by GL above. The Sith were behind everything. They are the ones whom spread greed. They corrupted the political system and the organisations like the commerce guild and TF. They had been doing it for many years - well bfore TPM. Before this escolated and before the Sith corrupted the senate, it was prospering and honourable. But the Sith were able to manipulate that and used greed as their ally. They were then able to destroy the Republic from within.

    They made promises to the TF etc and got them to do their bidding. These organisations are where the money is at and so with them on side, Sidious was able to corrupt politicans. Its all there on film. He was behind the conflict on Naboo which proved that he was the guy behind the greedy TF and showed how, even without rigging elections, he could take control of the Senate. From there, he could control everything:

    "Thousands of senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious".

    It didnt just dissolve t
  14. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    One has to distinguish between the status of an institution within a democracy, being a part of the government or serving the government, and the internal structure of an organisation itself. The catholic church etc. aren't democratic institutions, neither in the sense that they are part of the government or serving the government, as such they don't need to be elected. As for their internal structure, it depends. Same for political organisations - as long as they aren't part of the government or serve the government, there's no need for them to be legitimized by elections or appointment on the part of an elected body. Again, when it comes to their internal structure, it depends.


    I don't see the internal structure of the Jedi as democratic since it is very clear that the Jedi council members are NOT elected by the Jedi but appointed by the council itself. I see no means the ordinary Jedi could remove a council member from the council if they disapprove, neither by means of voting them out of office on regular election terms nor by means of a vote of no-confidence. Plus, there are instances when decisions within council are not being voted upon.


    No it doesn't because the control element is missing. If the Jedi should decide that they are unwilling to carry out the will of the public the government has no legal means of ensuring that they will, of controlling or dissolving them. The mere assertion on their part that they won't abuse their position and their power simply isn't enough in a democracy.

    If they choose to serve it makes them an institution supporting a democracy but not a democratic institution. There are certain very clearly defined criteria a body of a democratic government must meet, like being elected or appointed and controlled by an elected body. The Jedi order doesn't meet these criteria. They may be an honourable order committed to serving democracy but they are not a democratic institution in the political institutional sense.
  15. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    But this is why the Jedi themselves don't decide what to do. They always go through the senate (or did before it was destroyed). This shows that they don't have the power themselves which is given to organisations through elections and voting. Democratic elections are held to give power to those to make chocies on the behalf of the people. All the Jedi do is follow the instructions of this body. To say they were not democratically elected is nether here nor there. It doesn't work like that.

    Again, this type of organisation doesnt work like that. But saying that this makes them a non-democratic institute is an unfair assessment. There are just some things that can't be voted for. But the Jedi Council applies as much of the democratic system as it can. There isn't one leader. They are voted into the council and then vote for new members. It has to work this way.

    But the Jedi themselves don't have the 'power'. They are just volunteers. They aren't taking any power. They just serve those that have it and do what they are told to do. The only time the Jedi go against the senate is when they know its corrupted and that they would in fact be serving democracy better by taking another route.

    Well, this isn't the real argument. Sure, the Jedi weren't voted for or elected. But neither could they be. They are volunteers working for the democratically elected senate. If the people have a problem with this then they can vocie their concerns and the senate can refuse the Jedi. As we don't see this happen within a time of peace and deomcracy we can't say what the Jedi would do then or how they would act. All we can say is that when deomcracy existed the Jedi served the Senate. Be it indirectly, they are a democratic institution because they work for a democratically elected government.

    Im starting to know how it felt to be Anakin when Kenobi gave him those lectures on politics!

    I don't think this is what the debate is about. We're talking about whether the Jedi were 'democratic' in the wholse sense of the word. I think the fact theat they worked for the Republic, did what thyey were told and used the deomcratic system as much as they could within their order prov
  16. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    They could very well go on their missions all by themselves without consulting the senate and the senate wouldn't be able to do anything against it.

    This has nothing to do with "fair" or "unfair", or a "good" organisation versus "bad" one, this is about meeting the defining criteria of what constitutes a democratic organisation and they simply don't meet them. commercial enterprises aren't democratic organisations either, for the same reason - it wouldn't work. that doesn't make them "bad" organisations in any sense.


    again, this doesn't matter because the control element is missing. They could go against the senate at any time they like and the senate or the public would have no legal means to keep them from doing this.

    of course they could have been elected, at least their function as "keepers of peace" could be regularily voted upon, or there could be an arrangement that some governmental body is assigned a formal control function with the right to discharge the Jedi from their function as peacekeepers, if necessary.

    Well it just disturbs me when clearly defined political concepts are bended just to claim the Jedi to be something that is supposed to be "good" when they simply aren't. The Jedi aren't a democratic organisation or governmental body in any sense of the word. They don't meet the necessary criteria.
  17. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    They could...but they don't. That alone says a lot. But when we say - they could just ignore their orders and go and do what they want, I think that is incorrect. Sure, physically its possible. But imagine the ramifications. They would be outlawed and labelled as traitors...and we know what would come next.

    Ok, thats fine. Its not really what I am talking about although I will say that seeing the people/senate didn't vote against the Jedi (before Sidious' plotting) that they were in fact indirectly elected as keepers of the peace. My main point is just that the jedi serve democracy and fight for it and to do so they cant be an independant order.

    And you think elections and votes stop this in the real world? Sure, if the Jedi wanted to go independant they could - just like any political organisation who wanted to do what they want. But they would suffer for it and be persecuted. The fact is, the Jedi didnt do that which shows their alliegance to democracy.

    Who says there isn't? But like I said, the Senate didnt vote against them and the people who elect the senators obviously didnt have a problem with it. If they did they would say so and then we could see how the Jedi would react to that. it didnt happen. The senate was only too happy to have the jedi as keepers of the peace.

    They're not being bended. They just arent relevant. Do the Jedi support democracy? Yes. Do the Jedi support the democratically elected goverment? Yes. Does the jedi order have democratic systems in place? Yes.

    What would happen if the Jedi were independant and didn't work for the Republic and Senate? ****
  18. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    the set up of political systems hasn't been discussed and developed and reformed over and over for centuries to become what they are today. Today's set-ups have evolved out of learning from mistakes made in history, and they have been corrected to constrain loopholes for abuse. Having an organisation in a position like the Jedi is such a loophole. It is a potential danger to a democracy because their cooperation and service is not under democratic control but entirely dependent on their good will.

    there is no evidence, not even a hint whatsoever that the Jedi's function was ever voted upon or that the senate had any opportunity to vote against them. Actually the lecture Palpatine gives Anakin on the institutional status of the Jedi in the ROTS novel suggests quite the contrary.

    That's anybody's guess. And if the concepts aren't relevant, then one should simply not use them. But I would disagree on the "not relevant" part. My point is that due to their institutional position the Jedi are in a precarious position, because they are technically in an ideal position for doing exactly what Palpatine claimed they were trying to do: Taking over the Senate and the Republic. This institutional weakness allowed Palpatine to make his claims plausible, which would have been a lot harder if the Jedi order were indeed an institution under the formal control of the government. And as the above mentioned lecture by Palpatine shows, he was very clearly aware of this weakness and used every means available for exploiting it.
  19. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    Why should the Jedi served the Galactic Senate or the Republic in the first place? Shouldn't they be concern with helping their initiates or anyone who asks for their help in achieving some kind of spiritual self-realization? Wasn't the Jedi formed for that very reason in the first place?

    I'm not suggesting that the Order stick their heads in the sand and forget about what is going on in the galaxy. There is nothing wrong in occasionally offering help when it is asked for - on an individual basis. But I think that as a religious order, they may have become too involved in the galaxy's politics.
  20. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    This is a very good point. It may be another dimension of what Lucas may try to tell the audience. Lucas has frequently stated that he wrote the prequels based on a study of the turning of democracies into empires in human history, and with the purpose to show what factors allow this to happen. This wouldn't make a lot of sense if the decisive factor that is responsible for this process was the involvement of dark sorcerers in the government like the Sith - apparently there's no parallel in human history for this and one also couldn't learn a lot from a story like this. In my opinion it is a very multi-layered story that he's telling - one factor is that the story shows how fear and greed on the part of senators as well as the general public allows a clever politician to make people voluntarily give up their liberty. Another level is about how institutional weaknesses in the set-up of a democracy play a role and can be exploited by a clever politician, such as the idea that commercial entieties like the trade federation are allowed to have a seat in the parliament (for very good reasons corporate bodies have no right to vote of their own, neighter have they the right to be voted for, in a modern western democracy), and like the precarious, not properly integrated position of a major executive body, namely the Jedi order. Yet another dimension may be about pointing out the possible consequences and dangers that may result when a religious order becomes too much involved in the political process - for the order itself as well as for democracy. Lucas really has done his homework on the history of politics and the science of political institutions - one can learn quite a lot from the prequels in this respect if one looks at them really carefully.
  21. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Well, thats exactly what he did do Mandy. Check out the prologue he wrote for Shatterpoint and its all there.

    Its about how wrong doers create corruption and manipulate the masses and then offer a solution to it. Its about how people in crisis and instability will willingly hand over power to a person or group who they think can restore the justice and security. Its about how this always ends up being too higher price to pay.

    Its not about the Jedi screwing up and being to blame for anything. The Sith were just very clever. They manipulated and corrupted organisations and people to chip away at the foundations of the Republic and to gain power within the government itself. From there they were able to start a war that would destroy the Jedi but also require a solution to the mess. Sidious put himself up as the solution. "The Sith were behind everything - inlcuding the war". Thats the issue. Why does a democracy turn into a dictatorship? Because these people create problems or manipulate a bad situation and then offer a solution to it.
  22. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    Where have I stated anything about "the Jedi screwing up and being to blame for anything"? I have stated that the Jedi are in a precarious position because they don't meet the criteria of a democratic institution. I've never even stated that this was their fault. On the contrary, I've said explicitly that this isn't about "good" versus "bad" organisations. I simply maintain that they are in an unfortunate institutional situation. I don't even know how this situation came to be.

    And I still disagree that it is about "the Sith were behind everything". It is about the Jedi, the political institutions,the general public and last not least Anakin as the exemple of the human being, who are handing power more or less willingly to the Sith, due to institutional weaknesses, fear, greed, and blindness. "Nobody takes power. They're given power by the rest of us, because we are stupid or afraid or both." (William Edgars, in Babylon 5, "the exercise of vital powers"). If it was only about "the Sith", i.e. dark sorceres, being behind everything, there would be no point in telling the story. Since in our world dark sorcerers aren't usually involved in the government, we couldn't learn anything from it. Actually I think it's quite dangerous to believe that such developments can only occur in the presence of an order of dark sorcerers like the Sith.
    Why does a democracy turn into a dictatorship? Because the institutions and the people allow it to happen. As Edgar said, power is given to the "wrong-doers" because of fear ("additional security might be disruptive for you") and because of ignorance and stupidity. It's not about being subject to some evil undetectable and unconquerable dark force you can do nothing about, it's about you and me and literally everyone who has to face and fight the consequences of their own fear and ignorance and stupidity.
  23. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    "Nobody takes power. They're given power by the rest of us, because we are stupid or afraid or both." (William Edgars, in Babylon 5, "the exercise of vital powers").
    great quote. i'm a fan as well:)

    however, that quote is more descriptive of the republic -not the jedi.
    unlike the republic, the jedi do everything they can to prevent this thing from happening.
    they see the warning signs, but choose to not ignore them.
    but the jedi certainly weren't afraid, stupid or both.
    the republic was!

    in the context of anakin and the republic, the quote is spot on.
    but not about the jedi.
    not sure if you're implicating them as well.
    but if you're not, i'd have to agree.
  24. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    however, that quote is more descriptive of the republic -not the jedi.
    unlike the republic, the jedi do everything they can to prevent this thing from happening.



    I can't agree with this. I get the feeling that many of you want to absolve the Jedi of any wrong doing or mistakes. But I can't. Some of the decisions that they have made had led to their own downfall. Just as the Republic had made decisions that led to their own downfall. Each individual is his or her own worst enemy. Each group or institution is its own worst enemy. If the Jedi Order had not made certain decisions in regard to its connection to the Republic, it would not have found itself vulnerable to Palpatine's scheming.
  25. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    No, instead they would have found themselves in an even more dangerous position. Or worse still, they wouldn't have been able to function as the Order they needed to be.

    Why do you think they put themselves in this position anyway? It all comes down to this notion by some people that the Jedi were selfish and evil. They really arent and thats missing the point entirely. They are selfless and compassionate and serve the Republic because its the right thing to do.

    And do you think Palpatine wouldn't have just found another way? It was his life's work to bring down the Jedi. He would have just found another way to destroy them had they not been closely tied with the Senate. To be honest, he could have done pretty much the same.

    He would have enlisted the Jedi as Generals in the war he created.
    Had they not accepted he would have brandished them as traitors and had them killed.
    If they accpted then he would have dealt with them as we see in Order 66.
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