Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Cryogenic, Jul 8, 2006.
Well, in my opinion the whole development is the result of everyone making their share of mistakes.
Could you give us an example of this mistake, what you would have done differently and whether the Jedi could have done anything else at the time? Also, where these errors ever put right?
I just really can't see what else the Jedi could have done, even with hindsight.
I think what Yoda says in the ROTS novel sums it up quite nicely:
"Too old, I was," Yoda said. "Too rigid. Too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way. These Jedi, I trained to become the Jedi who had trained me, long centuries ago--but those ancient Jedi, of a different time they were. Changed, has the galaxy. Changed, the Order did not--because let it change, I did not."
Slowly, Yoda nodded. "A very great Jedi Master you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. A very great Jedi Master you always were, but too blind I was to see it."
He rose, and folded his hands before him, and inclined his head in the Jedi bow of respect.
The bow of the student, in the presence of the Master.
"Your apprentice, I gratefully become."
"We should split them up," Obi-Wan said. "Even if the Sith find one, the other may survive. I can take the boy. Master Yoda, and you take the girl. We can hide them away, keep them safe? train them as Anakin should have been trained?"
"No." The ancient Master lowered his head again, closing his eyes, resting his chin on his hands that were folded over the head of his stick.
Obi-Wan looked uncertain. "But how are they to learn the self-discipline a Jedi needs? How are they to master skills of the Force?"
"Jedi training, the sole source of self-discipline is not. When right is the time for skills to be taught, to us the living Force will bring them. Until then, wait we will, and watch, and learn.
That part of the novel didn't really make sense to me. Why would Yoda say that? I mean, how could he have changed the Jedi Order? How would he have known to? Its all hindisight as well. For me, that dialogue is about Yoda feeling guilty, but he really shouldnt. Sure, the Sith adapted and the Jedi didn't realise. But how could they have? Seriously, what would they have done differently. They believed the Sith were extinct.
There is of course an issue regarding jedi arrogance which maybe made the Jedi too complacent in the face of their enemy. But that isn't too much to worry about. Even with that issue, they would have brought peace had it not been for Anakin's betrayal.
And in terms of what Qui Gon does, it seems the only thing Yoda really learns from his is the force ghost trick. I feel this notion that Qui Gon was leagues ahead of the other Jedi was wrong. When he was alive he didn't know who the Sith were. He worked for the senate as much as any Jedi. He took a kid away from his mother. He was just a normal Jedi like all the others except he had a exclusive knoweldge of something and was himself a maverick.
When Yoda speaks in the novel of the children not needing Jedi training I persoanlly think thats Stover going overboard again. It was different with those kids. They had to be hidden and kept away from the Sith until the force "said" otherwise. If they were with Jedi or trained then the Sith would have felt their presence. Surrounding them with a loving family was the only real option.
But sure, its possible for kids to be brought up and not become attached so they can be good Jedi. But its far harder and far riskier. And the Jedi Order has to fulfill its duty else they will fail the galaxy. With attachment ridden padawans running about, that wouldnt be achieved.
I'm curious. Do you feel that the old Jedi Order was flawed in any way? Or do you feel that there was nothing really wrong with it?
Like any unopposed and large organisation it had grown arrogant and to some extent complacent. But that didnt change that much. The Sith would still have caused the same problems.
I don't see a huge difference between the PT and OT Jedi, apart from what the circumstances have forced to be different. The other thing is that the OT Jedi know how to join the force at will.
Yoda had every reason to feel guilty after all that happened in the PT was said and done. Quite simply, he was the one in charge of a supposedly virtuous order that in the best of cases was portrayed as morally bankrupt. Under Yoda?s guide, the Jedi essentially snatched the very young away from family in order to better meld the children into emotionless super-commandoes that existed primarily as extensions of the government. Yoda ignored Anakin?s cry for help, dismissing the young man?s emotional turmoil in one swift stroke by spouting some trivial generality about letting go of attachments. Yoda saw no trouble in leading a slave army to be butchered on the front lines as a means of bailing his underlings out of a tough situation. Under Yoda?s watch, the entire Jedi organization had become one stagnating, single-minded entity whose ability to use the force was drastically diminished. Golly, what a surprise that was!
In reality, the Jedi had fallen out of sync with the force long before the shroud of the dark side started to act as a negative outside influence. How is one supposed to experience the full resonance of the force in all its natural glory when they?re constantly trying to subvert key elements of humanity? Yoda?s absolutist doctrine did not reflect the truth of life. Not only did he attempt to define such individual abstracts such as the ?correct? way to love, but Yoda also saw fit to uphold a bureaucratic jurisdiction over Jedi emotion that directly hampered individual Jedi to experience the full breadth of being a living, thinking person. Had Yoda taken the time to nurture Anakin with genuine love, compassion, and a sense of right and wrong beyond strict mandates for obedience, then perhaps there wouldn?t have been a need for the entire Order to be decimated before a new seed for something better could be planted.
Yoda should not only have felt guilty, he should?ve got down on his ghostly knees at the end of Jedi and thanked Luke for finally cleaning up the train-wreck that was the old Jedi order.
Every Jedi's committment is to the Force above all.
The Jedi had placed their loyalty to the Republic, the Council, and Rules...., above the Force and been blinded.
Yoda had been looking away to the Future...not keeping his mind on where he was, and it cost the Jedi dearly.
It is when he withdraws from his duel with Sidious, that he knows if the Jedi are to survive, a different POV is needed.
Well, what can I say? I could now quote what you've written on this topic, about a year ago, in this thread http://boards.theforce.net/the_star_wars_saga/b10456/20441079/p1/?51 but it wouldn't make much sense in referring you to your own posts, I suppose.
Refer me to whatever you like Mandy, this is what im saying here and now. BAck then I made statements without knowing the full picture as I do now. I have a greater understanding these days. I cringe when I read over my old statements. But hey, we all have to learn, change and adapt. That's what I have done. I think my arguments back then had little backup and I was an ego based argument put forward because I was always looking to say something unique or different. Im over that. I have a larger view of these issues now. Thanks for the reminder anyway.
I find it a sad thing that the attempt to think originally, and to say something different and new is now considered as an "ego trip". I cannot imagine where science and humankind would be today if it weren't for people striving to come up with different and original thoughts - I'm sure we wouldn't have the opportunity for discussing on the internet, and that there wouldn't be anything like Star Wars to discuss, since Star Wars only exists due to George Lucas' ability to come up with something unique and different and due to scientists and artists and developers who have enabled him to express this vision creatively.
I was talking about myself. Not humanity in general.