Lit Beating a Dead Eopie: The Diversity Thread (various spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by CooperTFN, Aug 20, 2009.

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  1. Likewater Force Ghost

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    Dec 31, 2009
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    ahem....


    NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
  2. Kuag Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 11, 2009
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    I didn't think anything could annoy me more than effusive, self-flagellating individuals expressing the self-loathing associated with pernicious white guilt until I read this thread. Here we have effusive, self-flagellating individuals expressing the self-loathing associated with pernicious white guilt in a fantasy universe.

    Some of you should stop drinking the identity-politics Kool-Aid.
  3. Rouge77 Jedi Grand Master

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    May 11, 2005
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    What guilt? :eek:

    I just don't like all these pink faces in my space fantasy fiction... [face_shame_on_you] ;)
  4. Likewater Force Ghost

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    Dec 31, 2009
    star 4
    white guilt?

    dose that not reqire a certain pre-requisate that I might be lacking?

    Lets us say out of the 5 star trek Captains, I most closely resemble the fellow from Deep Space 9.
  5. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Don't look at me - I'm as Aryan as my avatar.

    Hey, I haven't flagellated myself in at least a week. Certainly not effusively.

    With all those buzz words, Kuag, you're bound to have a good point. Hopefully you'll share it with us sometime.
  6. Dawud786 Force Ghost

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    Dec 28, 2006
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    Ah, nothing like someone whose been drinking the right-wing Kool-Aid.
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  7. Havac Some Guy Who Moderates Lit

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    Gee, that's funny, since that describes pretty much the opposite of my attitude toward white guilt and identity politics. Yet I still somehow manage to be annoyed when my sci-fi setting is monotonously uniform. Not because it has anything to do with my politics, but because it's boring and suspension-of-disbelief-breaking.
  8. Sjaddix Jedi Knight

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    Jan 17, 2011
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    yes it is suspension of disbelief breaking.
  9. GrandMasterKatarn Force Ghost

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    According to The Unifying Force, Markre Medjev is "dark-complected". Take that as you will.
  10. Likewater Force Ghost

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    star 4
    breaking, no.

    But it is Odd, I am a life long fan of Scifi. Star Trek, Star Gate, Comics(Dc/Marvel/ Dark horse/ Image/Apsen), Novels, ect.

    It is odd that when I read Star Wars, there are no brown people. Except Lando.

    No asians either, you tend to notice after a while. It is disconcerning.


  11. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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  12. Sjaddix Jedi Knight

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    honestly most fantasy lit is pretty white washed but scifi is generally way better.
  13. Likewater Force Ghost

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    Yes, But Mondern fantasy has a Good mix.

    the Mercades Lacky, Jim Butcher, Kim Karrison.

    But yeah, it's Scifi especially future scifi that usually well mixed.

    But It is jarring going from Honer harrington verse, to smomething more uhhhh monochrome.
  14. Sjaddix Jedi Knight

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    Jan 17, 2011
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    honestly dont read much modern fantasy, got any good suggestions with this diversity?
  15. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

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    I think it's hilarious that you think all the people complaining in this thread are white. After all, I'm not white and I'd certainly like to see more human characters that aren't.

    Edit: As for the Mara picture in this thread, I don't really mind it to be honest.I just get annoyed when every new character or character that hasn't had an image, has to be white; my main gripe being Jaden Korr.
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  16. Havac Some Guy Who Moderates Lit

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    Even all the random audience members are white humans. The only nonhumans that have even been on Luke's Council are Saba, Cilghal, Tresina (who's dead), and now that new Yuzzum from Vortex. I suppose Tionne looks like a weird near-humanish thing. And all the humans have been white. It's kind of boring.

    On the bright side, by Legacy, there's not a single human on the Council, and in fact there are hardly any prominent human Jedi at all. There's maybe one outside the Skywalkers.
  17. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

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    Apart from it being an incorrect assumption, based on amateur philosophy, that line doesn't actually make sense. We're not in a fantasy universe.
  18. DarthIktomi Jedi Master

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    May 11, 2009
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    Of course, so am I, at least according to Göbbels. Oddly, German Westerns portrayed Indians sympathetically. (See, for instance, Der Kaiser von Kalifornie.) Göbbels went so far as to declare that the Nazis would return North America to the Indians. So, Göbbels declared the Sioux to be Aryan, and, following the tradition of white men, the Nazis decided the American Indian Federation represented all Indians.

    (To be fair, Germans aren't the only Europeans with...odd...ideas about Indians.)
  19. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Legacy wins in this category hands down. And I am not just talking about background characters. Check out this list below on named GA characters for example:

    Gar Stazi - Duros
    Jhoram Bey - Weequay
    Jaius Yorub - Sullustan
    Monia Gahan - Mon Calamarian
    Gial Gahan - Mon Calamarian
    Andurgo - Dug
    Ronto - Nikto
    Nu Toreena - Ithorian
    Anj Dahl - Human
    Hondo Karr - Human
    Bail Antilles - Human
    Ona Antilles - Human
    Nict - Human
    Piers Petan - Human

    Now, on the face of it, human characters account for roughly 40% of named characters. 60% are alien, which is a WAY better percentage than any novel series of late. If we add up all the background aliens in the GA fleet, the percentage of human characters drops even further.

    It get's real interesting when you look at the characters in the GA with the most screen time. Once you remove all the human and alien characters who are one offs/dead, the percentage changes significantly. Of the seven regularly appearing GA characters (Stazi, Bey, Anj, Monia, Ronto, Andurgo, and Ona) only 2 out of seven are human.

    Once of these days, I will thumb through the issues and make a tally based on human and alien background characters. I have a hunch those numbers will be even more impressive.

    --Adm. Nick
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  20. Sjaddix Jedi Knight

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    Jan 17, 2011
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    Yeah part of what keeps Legacy humans numbers down is just two confirmed skywalkers where as current books have 6 running around.
  21. Kuag Jedi Grand Master

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    You don't have to be white to take up the banner of white guilt. I'm not operating under the assumption that everyone complaining about this is white. I'm operating under the assumption that all the people complaining in this thread are obsessed with race, specifically the predominance of white people in a fictional universe of all things.

    For Cooper's sake, I'll be succinct in stating that my point is that those of you complaining about this "issue" are petty minded.



  22. Kuag Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 11, 2009
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    Well then paint a mosaic with your mind when you're reading. Maybe the people in the background are black, yellow, red, Asian, Hispanic, African. Your sci-fi setting is not monotonously uniform:

    -Lando Calrissian
    -Captain Panaka
    -Captain Typho
    -Adi Gallia
    -Stass Allie
    -Tendra Calrissian
    -Jolee Bindo
    -Mace Windu
    -Markre Medjev
    -Jariah Syn
    -Bultar Swan
    -Roth-Del Masona
    -Grizz Frix
    -Moff Geist

    Just to name a few.

    Diversity is not a value. It's a characteristic.

  23. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    One: Tendra's white. Maybe you were just assuming Lando'd marry a black woman? [face_mischief]

    Two: I see your fifteen or so and raise you six thousand or so.

    Three: "blindingly obtuse" is also a characteristic. One can endeavor to move toward it or away from it.

    Four: some human beings have cleft palates. If 80% of human characters in the GFFA were described as having them, and I complained about it, would that make me obsessed with cleft palates? Or would I be just be pointing out the 800-pound gundark in the room?

    Five: thank you for adjusting your tone somewhat from your original post. The points you're raising are, at the very least, worthy of bringing up, and I'm happy to continue having an adult conversation about this if you are.

    Six: I like counting.
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  24. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

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    How does this make sense? I have no reason to feel feel guilt over any racial issue.

    I wouldn't say that people here are obsessed with race. We're just bemoaning the lack of diversity in human characters.

    Also, what would you like, people not complaining at all? Should everyone here just not comment on a universe where it seems every character is of one race when quite a few minorities purchase and read the books?


    Post proof or retract. Who here is being petty? Give examples. After all you're the one attacking posters directly.


    Also congratulations on naming twenty or so characters across a variety of media in a universe with thousands of humans. Sure many are undescribed, but it seems that every previously undescribed character who gets a in depth description and/or picture turns out to be white.
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  25. CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus

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    Also: almost all of the characters in that list are from the films or Legacy, neither of which are being presented here as part of the problem.
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