Saga Beginning the Saga: The wonderful benefits of TPM....

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by obi-rob-kenobi4, Sep 19, 2012.

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  1. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Vertigo is a terrific movie. One of my favorites.

    TPM is probably my third fav of the saga. It almost stands apart from the others in how it sets everything up while also keeping its distance from them in some unique visual ways(designs, color pallette, etc).

    I've really grown to like and appreciate the movie's benefits over the last few years more than the things I dont like.
  2. Yunners Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 2
    Harold and Maude?
    Isn't that the greatest love story of our time?
  3. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    Ha, Nice.
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  4. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    There is nothing quite like the hideous and insidious Darth Sidious/Palpatine!
    Jarren_Lee-Saber and eht13 like this.
  5. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    I know its said that the lyrics of Duel of the Fates dont really have a special meaning to them when translated into English other than the way they sound when sung but I cant help but see the meaning behind the words used.

    The lyrics of Dule of the Fates use many words with strong dark meaning behind them like dreadful head (evil?), dreadful speak give(politics?), and then: dreadful speak give battle dreadful. Dule of the Fates is really a poem describing the Saga in many ways.

    Dark-Fox and Jarren_Lee-Saber like this.
  6. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    "Luke I am your father", meaning darth vader was a skywalker too. And he wasn't always a cyborg. And, he was once a jedi. Luke and leia had to have a mom, too. When young future darth vader, now just anakin, meets padme for the first time, he asks her if she was an angel from space. That part was so cute!!! And anakin was so innocent looking!
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  7. Yunners Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2006
    star 2
    The quote is "No, I am your Father".
    The 'Luke' part is a common misquote.
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  8. Dark-Fox Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 2008
    star 2
    I enjoyed the theme of symbiosis, the introduction of midichlorians to the saga and seeing the jedi as never before but I didn't leave the cinema after first viewing feeling wowed.

    Now though, many years later, I think it really shines as a counterpoint to RotS which is why it couldn't be heavy. It seems to make more sense when viewed through the lens of the entire saga, as I believe was GL's intention all along.
  9. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    It's also a counterpoint to ROTJ. There are many parallells between TPM and ROTS and between TPM and ANH, but I think it's interesting that ROTJ takes the theme of symbiosis to a galactic level, as befits the final chapter. Here, we see different species from a multitude of planets joining forces to bring down the Empire. Even the ewoks join the fight. They all help eachother because they need eachother's abilities. It's the only way for them to restore freedom to the galaxy.
    There's also a ton of visual links between the two films, as well as links in the plot:

    - Both episodes begin quietly, with two Jedi/one Sith landing in the hangar bay of a spaceship/space station.

    - Tatooine is featured as the site of a spectacular action scene that ends with a main character being freed and taken off the planet. Jabba and Bib Fortuna are also there, along with a myriad of goofy aliens ;)

    - Naboo and the Endor moon are green and full of life.

    - The ending battle is divided into three or four parallell battles, on the ground and in space.
    - In TPM, the goal of the space battle is to blow up a spaceship so that the droid army on the ground is deactivated. In ROTJ, the goal of the ground battle is to deactivate a deflector shield so that the starfleet can blow up a space station.
    - The indigenous gungans/ewoks fight the more technologically advanced battle droids/stormtroopers. Some of them die, but they hold out long enough to win the battle.
    - In TPM, two Jedi encounter one Sith on the ground. In ROTJ, one Jedi encounters two Sith in space. In both, a Sith kills/tries to kill a Jedi and is then sent down a bottomless pit by the other Jedi/Sith (though I'd actually argue that Anakin was a Jedi again at that point). Immediately afterwards, the older Jedi is dying in the younger Jedi's arms. The younger Jedi is the sole survivor of the encounter.

    - The older Jedi, who is also the mentor/father of the younger Jedi, is cremated on the surface of the green planet/moon. (The father is actually present when the mentor is cremated, unwittingly witnessing what will happen to him twice - first after his turn to the dark side (where he experiences excruciating pain) and then after his return to the good side (where he is at peace).)





    Symbiosis - it grows
    /LM
    Last edited by Lars_Muul, Oct 22, 2012
  10. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    =D=^:)^[face_dancing][face_dancing][face_shame_on_you][face_whistling][face_whistling][face_whistling] [IMG]

    Aww..... so sad and cute.

    [IMG]
    Last edited by Lord Tyrannus, Oct 23, 2012
  11. Blur Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 1999
    star 4
    TPM is one of the most underrated films of all time - absolutely amazing. It's my favorite Prequel film, and my third favorite film in the saga (behind ESB & ANH). I never get tired of seeing TPM (though I can't say the same for AOTC & ROTS). One of the reasons TPM was unfairly maligned was Jar Jar. Even now, 14 years after the film was released, people give that character as the main reason TPM was a poor movie, which IMHO is unfair.

    Some of the many great things about the film:

    - Anakin's general selflessness & compassion towards others - since all know how he's going to end up, this makes his compassionate behavior here even more tragic.

    - Anakin realizing his mother can't go with them when they leave Tattoine. And, the later scene when he leaves his mother, who doesn't want to see him go but knows he's going on to a better life. This second scene is especially sad & moving, and IMHO defiinitely one of the best scenes in the saga.

    - The Pod race - edge-of-your-seat suspense. Very cool.

    - All of the aliens, including the Nemoudians, the Gungans, the Pod racers, the other aliens on Tattoine, etc.

    - Any scene with Darth Maul - IMHO, truly the most frightening villain in the PT. As far as I'm concerned, Maul blows away both Dooku & General Greivous as an iconic SW villain.

    - Going along with the above, the Duel of the Fates. IMHO this is definitely the best lightsaber battle in the films up to that point. Maul's double-bladed lightsaber was incredible (though IIRC this was not created by Lflm., but was first seen in one of the Dark Horse Star Wars "Tales of the JEdi" comics from earlier in the '90's). Though Maul did lose, IMHO he would have won the battle if he had fought either Obi-wan or Qui-gon alone (and, he did win the fight against Qui-gon). IMHO, Maul was somewhat worn out from having to fight both Obi-wan & Qui-gon at t he same time, and because of this Obi-wan was able to take him out.

    - The podrace scene with Jabba the Hutt & Bib Fortuna - nice nod/homage to the OT. I liked how Fortuna was in slightly different outfit & looked somewhat different than his appearance in ROTJ, which was appropriate since there was a 20+ year gap between the films.

    - The Midichlorians. Though some fans apparently didn't like this explanation re: why some were stronger with the Force than others, IMHO this makes perfect sense. Obviously, some people never have &never will have the skills it takes to be Jedi. It's not just something that comes naturally, you're literally born with the ability. This is why Jedi are taken from their parents as infants (if the parents agree to this, of course), so they can be trained from a young age to hone their abilities (IIRC, this was mentioned in the TPM novelization).

    - Jar Jar, who I thought of as an intentional innocent fool. Yes, I thought he was funny & much-needed comic relief in an otherwise very dark film. IMHO, he took the place of R2-D2 & C3-PO, but was intentionally even more ridiculous :D

    - The ending parade & music. Really brought to mind the Throne room scene & music from ANH, but with an underlying & dark tone.

    - The music - IMHO, TPM had the best soundtrack of the PT.
    Last edited by Blur, Jan 14, 2013
  12. Ambervikings91 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2012
    star 2
    Very well said and very cool!
  13. Kweh-chan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2006
    star 1
    TPM, tied with ROTJ, is my favourite film in the saga, and my favourite film, period. While I don't think it's the best of the saga (that would be ESB, hands down), I think it's a fantastic and grossly under-appreciated film. I think people are probably sick of reading my life story on how TPM gave us Neimoidians, which gave me joy, motivation in art, opportunities, etc, so I'll skip it here, for now. I will say, however, that maybe people might want to give them another look...they're brutally underloved, despite being such interesting and intelligent beings. Not to mention beautiful :D

    On a similar note, however, I think people seem to forget just how much TPM expanded the Star Wars universe: it gave us so many new species, new factions, planets, cultures. It gave us DIPLOMACY!!! It showed to us that there is much, much more to the Star Wars universe than Jedi, the Force, space battles, etc. And, in turn, I think it actually made it more realistic. I know the inclusion of politics and diplomacy wasn't everyone's cup of tea, but I feel it really did a lot for the saga as a whole.

    On a visual level, the film is beautiful! We got some great scenes of Otoh Gunga, Naboo, Coruscant, etc. It had a great soundtrack too!

    Now, while it isn't unique in this, I loved the use of historical allusions and commentary. That could be a topic, in itself.

    Fantastic action scenes! The podrace and lightsaber battle have become icons of Star Wars.

    The levels of depth and darkness, going on behind the scenes. And invasion by a corporation, behind which is a political struggle, behind which is a Sith plot. I think it laid the foundation for the saga brilliantly. TPM is one of those films that requires thought and analysis, in my opinion. If you take it at face value, you get a great, action-packed film, with diverse inhabitants, beautiful visuals, and a brilliant soundtrack; if you dig deeper, you find an endless source of points for analysis, directions you could take, theories, etc.
  14. Ambervikings91 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2012
    star 2
    It is too bad that most people wont really recognize these cool aspects
  15. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    That is all very eloquent, Rob.

    Another meaning to the title can be teased out if you actually consider it to be pointing to the lightsaber duel at the end with the Fates wailing in the background (or foreground): namely, Maul is a clone of Obi-Wan, with alien embellishment, and Qui-Gon glimpses this truth in his last moments, horrifying him enough to lose his focus and be speared by Maul, and then leaving him too weak/aghast to voice this truth to Obi-Wan himself. The "Clone Wars" have already begun in TPM and the only person who realizes dies before revealing the truth. The Jedi can be defeated when the Sith are this conscious, this duplicitous.

    TPM, in starting with Anakin as a child, and giving space to allow another character, convinced of Anakin's importance, to label him a "vergence" in the Force, also creates a rift right through the prequel storyline; which has been talked about before, but in the negative. I don't see this as a negative. By itself, it's quite fascinating; and when played off against a cornucopia of correlated variables, it becomes pretty profound. Well, from a certain POV. Child-like elements are in full force here, and leak into adjacent parts of the same concentric ring/circle -- i.e., ROTJ (these two films are on the outer ring) -- also diffusing, somewhat, into the other installments, on the inner rings, though having less prominence in those movies, as the innocence of the galaxy fades.

    There's also an exploratory feel to TPM that's quite uplifting: a magnanimous set of breath-taking reveals: of Theed, Otoh Gunga, the Boonta Eve arena, and Coruscant, all of which feel that bit different to how locations are shown off to the viewer in the other episodes. There's a special grandeur here -- a confidence in this world -- that's dulled as the story moves forward, clouds over, with things becoming less cut-and-dry, more foreboding, systems, people and places breaking down, showing the strain of simply existing, getting gummed up or left in disrepair. TPM alone is left to have a sort of naive optimism that we never see return; not even in ROTJ.

    Obviously, I really dig Jar Jar and the Gungans, too. It was quite cool of Lucas to come up with a race like this one: frog-like amphibians dwelling in vast underwater cities, resplendent with their art nouveau stylings. If you notice, the Gungans actually come off as virtually invulnerable; they are improbably dexterous, nearly impervious to harm, highly resilient: a master race positioned as slaves. A fun detail is evident when Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan join Jar Jar for an underwater swim. The Jedi are far clumsier than Jar Jar, ironically, requiring breathing devices, and awkwardly venturing into the water with their thick robes dragging behind them. Yet when they reach the Gungan city, they have no problem entering: it appears to welcome all, discriminating against no-one.

    What else do I like?

    Anakin is a great contradiction: both powerful and powerless, he's an immense paradox at the heart of this operatic tale. He's as diminutive as an Ewok, but possesses a Herculean heart and instinct. He loves his mom, but longs to be free. He works under Watto, but never exactly for him (he's building a podracer without Watto's knowledge). He remains outwardly bright and cheery, but has a dark dash of cynicism/objectivism, too ("I wouldn't have lasted this long if I wasn't so good at building things"). He is destined to become a machinic overlord, but here he's just a bubbly kid who shouts "Yippee!" This is a keenly-sketched character, well-written and acted: in many ways, the anchor of the movie. Part of the silliness that the character exudes -- the aforementioned habit of going "Yippee!" -- adds to a coy atmosphere of exaggerated playfulness and the surprising remove of the drama: how COULD this person POSSIBLY turn into Darth Vader? The movie challenges us to consider as many factors as we can ("Midi-chlorians are a microscopic lifeform that resides within all living cells" = many variables are so small as to be microscopic; but ignore them at your peril).

    While I used to find it alienating or vexating, I get a big kick these days out of the "preliminary" feel of the movie, too. It's a grand overture with a broad, adventuresome spirit. But it's also tethered by moodier tones: deep, dark insinuations; shadowed thoughts that are quickly effaced, bubbling the rest of the time imperceptibly under the surface. The splendour of the piece comes to dominate, but the stormier ideas remain. You can taste danger and tragedy in the air. I have stolen the p-word from an IMDb fellow who now has a TFN account: Ingram_1. His actual phrasing: "preliminary, not perfunctory". That difference I couldn't earlier grasp; a large segment of the fanbase has an equally hard time with TPM. Yet that difference is crucial. Everything here has a meaning, a sense of conscious intent. It's a sprawling art piece. Many treasures lurk within, just that bit embedded, or hidden: the glowing Gungan city, looking like neurones in some watery brain, might as well be tribute to this basic idea.

    You have to figure that George Lucas does everything in a strait-laced fashion and NOTHING in a strait-laced fashion. Blinding truths are constantly staring you in the face, but there's the rub: they're blinding. This conceit is given deeper expression in AOTC (e.g., the insides of the Kaminoan cloning facility, Yoda calling for the shades to be drawn, etc.). TPM is less forward with such motifs; it seems to channel more of its strangeness through its child-like air, disguising them behind light-hearted gags and incidents that can be easily brushed off. This, I contend, is part of the genius of the picture. Funny, for example, how Anakin can barely even see out of that N-1 cockpit, and when the cockpit closes on him, it's a PLASTIC BUBBLE. Just a hint of things to come there, perhaps? This, of course, announces the beginning of a ridiculous skit which ends with the rather serious matter of Anakin having blown up a bunch of people/droids; and it's this happening that seems to result in the Jedi ruling to absorb him into their lofty ranks after all (but with Yoda still objecting). The movie hides its darkness well, while freely offering it to those who wish to go look. Hell, while I'm on the matter, I might as well point out that Anakin accomplishes two "victories", of a kind, here -- winning the podrace and blowing up the remaining droid control ship ("Now, THIS is podracing!") -- which both come about because he was desperate to impress or help Padme: the old Orson Welles quip that man built civilization to impress his girlfriend comes true here; though Anakin, in a sense, ultimately destroys civilization when this impulse goes awry.

    I like all this. It's a fun and fanciful movie if you want it to be, but it sends out many thoughtful ruminations, too. It has an ecumenical quality: themes, ideas, and observations you can apply to the rest of the saga, like the way characters are counseled to be "mindful". A blood/fluid motif, bright pageants, our first glimpses of new sights and sounds, Jedi tutorship, epic action sequences... these are just a few of the things to dig about it. And what could be stranger, yet more perfectly logical, than starting with a trade blockade, a tax dispute? From this one event erupts an entire saga. I like how the film begins and ends on Naboo. I like how the Gungans go to war with skeletal, robotic versions of themselves. I like the podrace: visuals, sound design, the racers, the course layout. I like Anakin's home. I'm dazzled by the Senate. The Naboo palace is magnificent for being REAL. I like Qui-Gon running across a patch of water in a swamp/forest. I like his first fight with Maul in the desert. I like the planet core sequence. I like the lighting during the dinner scene. I like Jar Jar getting into trouble in the market and slurping his drink at the table. I like how Watto is like a dark cherub to Anakin's light cherub ("Are you an angel?"). I like Padme's innocence, morphing into steely determination after brief contemplation with Jar Jar. I like the seeds of the Anakin-Padme romance. I like Palpatine's scheming, even though I dislike his smuggery. I really enjoy Jar Jar shouting, "Wesa goin' home!" and that great burst of music. I like the queen's chrome starship and her chrome gun. I like the yellow Nubian spaceships. I like how the first ship we see is based on an earlier design for the Millennium Falcon and streaks past the camera, towards Death Star-like trade ships (the central globe of these ships is also based on an earlier design/sketch -- from George Lucas' own hand -- for the Death Star), in a reprise of the same sorta shot of the Millennium Falcon exiting the second Death Star at the dramatic action climax of ROTJ. So many in-jokes and peculiar in-rhymes. This is definitely a Star Wars movie, alright; but of quite the scale and personality that you've never witnessed before.

    I definitely love me some TPM.
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  16. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    I feel I may not become Mr Popular here but I have to say that the more I think through Star Wars the less sense it makes. I actually think it works very well on a visceral level but falls flat, imo, on any deeper intellectual basis. This isn't meant to mock Star Wars in any way, but rather to argue that its strengths don't lie in any great philosophical insight or exposition. That's there, but on that visceral level - and that looking at the elements, whether or not they are intended (more on that later), more deeply actually puncture theenjoyment of Star Wars.

    Now, I'll get the negative stuff out of the way and, hopefully, finish on a high. I have to say that I am no fan of the midiclorian storyline, nor the 'chosen one' aspect. In terms of midiclorians you say here that "It was necessary to elaborate the mythological concept of the Force", which puzzles me. Why? Why did it need elaborating? Surely we knew all we needed to know; the Force is an energy field that binds all life and is fed by life. "luminous beings are we, not this..crude matter" - so says Yoda in ESB within a perfectly strong exposition of what the Force is. What do the midiclorians actually elaborate about the Force? They elaborate nothing about the Force, they are just an extra element required in order for beings to access the Force. As for Qui-Gon's line that without them "life could not exist." well, never mind along time ago in a galaxy far far away, we're looking at an entirely different universe. You'll note we are alive and there is no sign of these midiclorians. That's the first nail in the coffin of the idea that one of GL's strengths is biology (as proposed in the OP) the second concerns the question, that you feel is answered by the midiclorians. Why is it that the Force is strong within certain families? But, the midiclorians form a symbiotic relationship with beings...so they are not an aspect of that being but some sort of commensal parasite. But, how are parasites passed on genetically, and yet it is not possible to become infected with these parasites? Midiclorians are a biological paradox; they make no sense biologically and answer nothing.

    Midiclorians were introduced, primarily, for one purpose; to offer a neat way of portraying the Force strength of Anakin Skywalker (which in itself seems, from an old OT-er, a strange fascination) It fundamentally altered the language of Star Wars, imo. Having GL talk of percentages of Force strength confounds me even now.....such was not even a question one thought to ask. One might as well ask what percentage one footballer is better than another....meaningless jargon - and again a biological faux pas. Skills/innate 'talent' are not to be found within one genetic marker, but are a result of the whole. The OT showed that what limited Luke's ability to use the Force was his belief; his faith. Never in the PT is this touched upon; it is all down to midiclorian counts.

    As for the theme throughout TPM of the energy being mined from Naboo.... well its no wonder so many might have missed that theme because there is simply no exposition to introduce it. If that is a major theme that the film relies upon then.... it has to be seen as a failure of the creator of that film not to even give a clue that that energy is being mined. Its not as if energy shields are some new element introduced into Star Wars that we might wonder at - in fact energy shields have been long established in science fiction generally. This, and other elements of the movies (not least of which is the complete lack of any question as to the morality of the use of the Clone Army) lead me to question whether one of GL's strengths is philosophy.

    So, having said that what I think the strength of TPM is, as I said at the start is that it is visually and viscerally stunning and exciting. That is its true strength. The true strengths of GL, imo, are his love of symbolism and striking imagery, his enthusiasm for pushing the boundaries of film-making and his ability to induce visceral tension. Along with that, his ability to cast strong characters in roles - the actors/actresses bring so much more to the films than the scripts offer. I think that is why those performers who relied upon GL's direction are (unfairly) vilified by some. Jake LLoyd suffered particularly from this and it seems to me that the Hayden Christensen in ROTS was a little more confident in himself than he was in AOTC.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  17. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    It's nice in theory, and of course that is penned with the ending of the film in mind... But it seems to me the Naboo and Gungans are completely independent of each other. They live on completely different sides of the planet (because they had to travel through the planet core to get to Theed) and don't seem to have any interaction with each other or dependence on each other. The Naboo are apparently dependent on some magical "space supplies" because their entire society collapses without them for one day when the TF blockades the planet.

    In fact there's not much motivation for the Gungans to fight at all.

    Further, the statement that "whatever happens to one of you will happen to you both" is a lie. The TF invasion fleet lands right on top of the Gungans (on the other side of the plante) and does absolutely nothing about them.
    Last edited by janstett, Jan 26, 2013
  18. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    The title refers to the manufactured crisis.
  19. Team Padme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    There are a lot of great things to TPM. A truly underrated movie.
    obi-rob-kenobi4 and Feelicks like this.
  20. Darth_Monkey_Boy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2008
    I don't believe that their entire society is collapsing because of one day of blockades. It's the point that they are being blocked for no discernible reason. Imagine that the army just showed up outside of your state and refused to let anyone bring in anything from the outside world. Sure. You guys wouldn't be suffering because you're an entire state, but you wouldn't be happy about what was going down at your borders. The Queen was addressing the attack on their sovereignty, and the attack on her people. There were pleas for help because the Trade Federation was apparently killing people until the Queen returned. That's at least how I saw it.

    At first. You must have missed the part where the Gungans had to move to their "Holy Place" to escape the battledroids. Their intention was to take over the entire planet, not just the human side. Remember, Palpatine is a racist. He does not care for alien beings, which is why he was so quick to order them wiped out even though they seemed to be no immediate threat. His hatred for their kind is what motivated the attack.

    That was created by The Sith. The title is definitely referring to more than one thing. There's Sidious as a blue phantom in his hologram. There's, as you typed, the crisis. There's the return of The Sith, that had been believed to have been extinct, therefore making them phantoms that have risen from the dead. I've read lots of theories regarding the title and no one answer seems to be the ONLY right one.
  21. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    Indeed. I have asked this question before but it seems to be ignored. It is an aspect of the film that I find bizzare. The idea that a military blockade is legal. Just think about it. The military blockade relies upon....the military. In ther words there is a clear threat implied within that. Let's say someone from naboo decides they wish to travel to Coruscant then they will be stopped by...? Anybody?

    A military blockade can only work if the threat is the use of military force, so how is such supposed to be legal under a democratic Republic?

    Its a bit like suggesting that holding hostages under armed guard is legal and only becomes illegal when you've shot someone.
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Jan 30, 2013
  22. Darth_Monkey_Boy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2008
    I got the feeling that there was some legal loophole that Sidious/the TF was using to enforce a blockade. When the Queen went to the Senate to plead her case, it seemed that nobody would believe that the TF was torturing/killing her people. So, I'm thinking a blockade in the STU is liken to a picket line here; the TF were executing their rights, but were taking things too far because of Sidious' lies. Once again, this is only in my opinion. I haven't actually read anything that tells me these things, I just kinda put it together myself.
  23. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    Well, yes, we are supposed to believe that there is some legal loophole that Sidious/TF are utilising, but I'm not sure under what circumstances a democratic system would allow a military blockade. I've seen this link made with picket lines before, but that simply doesn't stand up to inspection. You can't go armed to a picket line, and a picket line isn't an enforcement. A picket line works by means of persuasion. It may get ugly but there is no legal right to stop somebody entering the workplace.

    Let's go back to the example I offered, and say someone wishes to go to Coruscant, what would occur? As it is a military blockade then the implication is that military force will be utilised to enforce the blockade so; if someone tries to leave Coruscant they will, ultimately, be shot down. That is an act of aggression. That is why I said its like being able to hold hostages at gunpoint legally. Simply put, I can't see any situation within a democratic institution where a military blockade would be legal. Now I know that some will say but it clearly is, because it is stated as such within the dialogue, but the question really is; how does it make any sense?
  24. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade#Legal_status
  25. Darth_Monkey_Boy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2008
    The fact that no one was surprised to see the Queen in the Senate leads me to believe they weren't supposed to be using military force to hold the people of the planet hostage. I think my analogy was a little off. What I should've typed was that it would be more like if Wal-Mart, or maybe the East India Trading Co., would be keeping trade from happening in the U.S. because they didn't like what was going on, or something to that effect. There wasn't supposed to be an invasion ("Is that legal?" "I will make it legal!"). There weren't 't supposed to be any hostages. The Senate didn't believe that what the Queen was saying was true, so the things the TF were doing weren't legal by any means.

    I don't mean to derail the thread, so I'll just say that I cannot picture watching The Saga without "TPM". I agree with most of the things that have been posted about how important this movie is to the rest of the Saga. For me, it is crucial to see how Anakin has trouble accepting change, and his being forced to leave his mother behind gives insight into why he holds family so dear throughout the Saga. Watching how Padme shows him loving kindness not long after leaving his home, when everything is so cold for him, is key to why he feels the way he does about her. The only other person who cared for him in this way was his mother. It shows the beginning of their co-dependent relationship.

    I've always held onto the belief that this is what Lucas was conveying throughout the PT, and to an extent the OT; that there is an unhealthy love (in the PT) and a healthy one (in the OT). They truly loved each other, but they also felt responsible for each other. Their relationship mirrors an abusive one here on Earth; Padme can't see the road Anakin is going down because she can only see the "little boy back on Tattooine". Anakin can't let Padme go because of his fear of losing her like he lost his mother when he left her, and when she was later killed. (His focusing on his failure at his mother's funeral is also a co-dependent action.) His fear is so great that he even turns on Padme when it appears that she has betrayed him in "ROTS". It's what an abusive man does when trying to control the relationship; i.e. he was showing her his power so that she will never do this again. This is later shown again when Vader threatens to kill his own son, after cutting off his hand, when Luke refuses to join him. He wants his family, but he has no idea how to obtain it. So, he does the only thing he knows, trying to take it by force.

    This all begins in "TPM", and if you skip it, Anakin and Padme's relationship makes no sense. It just seems that Anakin is some kind of crazy stalker, and Padme just doesn't care what he does, and loves him for no apparent reason. When in actuality, it's Anakin's fear of loss and desire to have what he felt when he was with his mother, and Padme's view of Anakin as a kind, innocent and confused boy that she must protect. This is why she doesn't condemn what he does to the village of Sand People. She actually blames herself for what happened, and does her best to make Anakin feel better because she feels responsible for him. It's why she decided to show him love when they were about to be executed; she was comforting him before their death. After they survived, she completely took on the responsibility by marrying him. The words she uses when pleading with him on Mustafar are co-dependent words. She thought that by telling him her feelings out loud would change him because this is the way co-dependents think. It wasn't terrible writing on Lucas' part, it was brilliant, and was true to the character that he established in "TPM". This is why she loses the will to live, she felt that she had brought on what happened to Anakin and the galaxy because she felt that this was all her responsibility. She just couldn't live with that. The deleted scene where she talks about being unable to save the aliens (in "AOTC") really shows this side of her.

    Those are my thoughts anyway...
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