Begun... The Terror War Has...

Discussion in 'Cleveland, OH' started by TheRandomMenace, Mar 17, 2003.

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  1. TheRandomMenace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 4
    I'm sure most of you know that President Bush addressed the Union tonight, and it seems inevitable that we will be going to war with Iraq. I set up this thread for everyone to post their thoughts about "the approaching storm," (nice SW reference, huh?) but like the Roe vs. Wade discussion, please be respectful of other people's beliefs, and only make appropriate comments (I know some people can be really brutal when it comes to degrading people of Middle Eastern descent. Anything of that sort is inappropriate, but I trust that we will all conduct ourselves properly, just like we did in the Roe vs. Wade thread)


    After that little schpeel... I personally want to say that I don't agree with the war. I think America is about to shoot itself in the foot. I think Bush is only pursuing his own self-interests (he's up for re-election next year, the whole getting-Saddam-out-of-power thing seems to be a Bush thing; I think he wants to finish the job his dad started but didn't complete) and isn't really about liberating Iraq or weapons of mass destruction.

    I know this isn't a religious forum, but I ask that anyone who would be willing to pray/hope/reflect,etc. (whatever floats your boat) on the matter. I'm just making this request because I give a ton of credit to our troops. Most of them are guys around my age who figured they'd just sign up to get a free college education because the likelihood that they would actually be in combat would be slim. (I know that if I considered joining, that'd be the reason why I would) While they knew fully well what they were getting into, most young people don't anticipate something of this scale happening. These people are risking their lives for the greatest principle America is centered around, FREEDOM. I for one thank our soldiers millions of times over for being out there for us. I am not speaking for all of us, but I am speaking for myself with this comment: GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!
  2. Jedi_BMack Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 4
    War: Do i like it? No. Necessary evil in this case? Yes

    9/11: Terrible? Yes. Do I want to see another one? No?

    Saddam: More evil than Palpatine? I'd say so. Does he pay Muslim families who lost members as suicide bombers? Yes. Should he be removed from power? Abso-frellin-lutely.

    The French: Are they going to remove him? No. Is the French president in bed with Saddam for oil contracts? Yes. Did the French provide muntions and refrigerated trucks to Saddam? Abso-frellin-lutely.

    That said: What needs to be done needs to be done. Saddam needs to be dealt with/removed/terminated before he can help cause more damage to anyone else, whether they are Israelis, Kurds, Americans or even other Muslims. No one else feels like stepping to the plate, so the U.S. should do it so we don't have to watch anymore towers fall. We've been at war since 9/11. Changing the front shouldn't matter.

    However, we don't need Bush Fey'lya blowing everything all over god's-seven-little-acres. Just let the military do their job and keep the government's hands off the ops.

    -b-
  3. starwarschick14 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    I'm very uncomfortable with the way this war (or soon to be war) has come about. I'm just not convinced that it's necessary. War can be necessary, but there are too many personal interests at stake for Bush and the US in general that will compromise many innocent lives and the stability of at least one nation, and likely more.

    MIT is a very international community, so there's strong student support on both sides of this issue. Most of the time the differing opinions are respected, but sometimes people lose control and become very insulting. It's sad to watch. I fear that war will lead to violations of the first amendment right to free speech. I feel that the group of citizens who actively protest the war will be treated horribly one way or another. I mean, look at the Dixie Chicks situation. She had a right to voice her opinion, and she even apologized for the disrespectful manner in which she spoke. People are calling her un-American, treating her and the rest of the band as if they don't belong in this country. It's like free speech never existed. This war is going to make a large part of the US population incapable of respecting antiwar opinions, and that makes me very uncomfortable.

    I don't think Bush has given enough thought to what other countries think about the situation. If Iraq is as dire a problem as Bush makes it out to be, I'd like to think that there would be a more multilateral approach to the resolution, in both diplomacy and war. Maybe I'm a fool to hope that much, but what can I say...I have some amount of faith in humankind.

    And finally, I think about all the other countries that directly or indirectly advocate terrorism and human rights violations. Countries that also have a hatred for the US. I find it hard to believe that some of these countries don't pose a threat to the US, and I don't see invasion plans for them. I just find Bush's "reasoning" rather illogical.

    While we do have a right to defend our country against a serious threat, I guess I see Iraq as more of a potential threat on the level of several other anti-US countries. What would it take to make me see otherwise? I'm not sure. I'm conflicted over this first-strike strategy Bush seems to be comfortable with.

    I just wish more evidence of the situation in Iraq were made public...while I might not like the idea of war any more, I might at least see some necessity. For all I know, if I were in Bush's position with all his knowledge of the situation, I might make the exact same decision. But I don't know. I know very little about it so I don't understand his reasoning. Bush has never impressed me, and I disagree with a lot of the things he has done, so I need more to understand this one.
  4. corranhornjje Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2001
    star 2
    Saddam is already breaking the UN requirements for disarmament. Since the beginning he's been playing a game of 3 card Monty. If the diplomacy way is continued he *might* show us the little stuff he has in one hand, while he continues to keep the other behind his back. The only way we'll know for sure that he isn't a threat is to remove him from power and go in to all the sites at basically the same time to ensure he isn't just playing "hide the missiles". Either that or just blow them all up. Either way works for me.

    Once he and his corrupt people are removed we need to establish a stable environment for the Iraqi people. They're the ones that ultimately suffer in all this mess. One fact that I think plays a MAJOR role in this is that 20% of the WORLDS oil reserve is under the desert sands of Iraq. 20% of the WORLD. So few people see the BILLIONS generated from this oil and the majority toil away and live well below the acceptable standard of living. The new government in Iraq needs to be the regulating authority on the income from this oil and take care of its people. Much in the way that Native Americans have their system set up. Not that we'll open that can of worms though.

    It really reminds me of the Korea situation. WHY in the world are you making weapons of mass destruction (any at all for that matter) when you have people starving and dying every day because of the poverty and poor living conditions. Take care of your people. I just don't get it. NO ONE cares about the sandball you call home. Besides the oil no one would even want to have a claim in the area. And if someone invades you there's always help from other countries. The boarders have for the most part all been clearly established. No one invades and takes over countries these days. Especially not bigger ones such as Iraq. Feed your people first, then you can think about making an army, etc. If every country did this first we wouldn't have as many problems as we do today. The Iraqi people have the potential to be some of the richest people in the world but in the current situation the rich get richer and the poor die. That's what it boils down to. Now I'm not talking about communism here but for goodness sake there's value in human life and if it means giving people money free and clear it's dang well worth it. If it takes us going over and cleaning house and starting over then I'm all for it. These changes WILL NOT take place unless Saddam and his minions have been removed from power. They will not step down and thus must be removed. We don't even want to kill their military. We need them to defend the country once we leave. The ones that are loyal to Iraq and not just to Saddam are the ones we need to keep around. They're the ones that will likely surrender, which is a good thing, because they're not interested in dying for Saddam.

    I will agree that our reasons may not be as well intended as they are being portrayed and that's always unfortunate but what we accomplish along the way is going to be good for everyone involved. Ends do not justify the means. The reasons we have given are worthy ones.

    Jake Ehrichs
    corranhornjje
  5. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    I purposfully avoided watching Bush's address to the public, because I knew what he was going to say. YES, Saddam is a very evil man, and he needs to be dealt with. However, the thing that scares me more then that...is W's total disregard for any view other then his own. Anyone who watched the speech...did Jar Jar Liberman give Bush "emergency powers?"

    And when did we change the nation's motto from "In God we trust" to "WAR: We Are Right"? Why is any country (France, Germany, Russia) who doesn't blindly follow W's push for war wrong. Why is W undermining everything the UN is meant to do...simple because they won't 100% agree with him? If there is ever going to be peace in this world, there has to be a world governing body to settle these kinds of problems. Rather then undermine the efforts of the UN to prove Saddam is not disarming, why isn't W using the resources of the US to speed up the search? The United States one one of the main counrties responsible for the UN, and now that the rest of the world won't blindly follow W's Crusdae...Bush will throw away decades of political relations "and take his ball, and go home" And anyone in this country who thinks/questions his motives is considered "Un-American". I never thought I'd defend "the Dixie Chicks"...but I agree with her; Bush's blind quest for vengence (whatever justification) makes me embarrassed that he's my president.

    Ever since 911, W has used that tragedy as a open excuse to justify his actions. We sent troops to Afghanistan to find "the real villains" behind the attacks, now it seems Bin Ladden isn't even a major concern...because the finger pointing has shifted to the Bush family villian Saddam.

    What terrifies me...is that our president is using the power of this country, to get the man who wanted his father (former President Bush) killed. If that's what this whole "war on terror" and upcoming war with Iraq is about...Frell NO! If payback is what W wants, I'll pay for the two of them to go to Ceasar's Palace (Las Vegas) and we can have the biggest pay-per-view boxing event ever! No rules, only one man leaves the ring...and it's done. What terrifies me, is that our president is willing the jeopordize our lives to settle HIS family fueds.

    Allow me to share some words I remembered (while Freedom of Speech is still around) that I think President Bush should take to heart:
    I HAVE SEEN WAR
    I have seen war on land and sea. I have seen blood running from the wounded. I have seen the dead in the mud. I have seen cities destroyed. I have seen children straving. I have seen the agony of mothers and wives.
    I HATE WAR

    Franklin D. Roosevelt

    He was a president who saw what wars can accomplish...nothing. If you let this war happen President Bush (without exhausting every chance), you've failed us all!
  6. _-Reborn_Jedi-_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2002
    star 3
    War is upon us yet again, and it seems lately that our country has been divided into two groups, pro-war and anti-war, with anti-war seeming to take the lead. Why can't you people see the truth? Terrorism is rampant. Iraq is part of this terrorist network and has allowed it to flourish. We struck once in Afghanistan, but truly did not cut the head off of this terrorist beast. If we strike Iraq, we will have a strong foothold against terrorism. If we do nothing war-related, Iraq will keep being shady with the U.N. weapons inspectors and keep producing weapons of mass destruction until their time has come to unleash them upon the world, mainly the U.S. and Israel.


    We have been backed into a corner like an innocent animal being threatened. What does that animal do when threatened and provoked? They retaliate. You don't sit there and take beating after beating and succumb to the evil ways of a madman dictator. You strike back with all you've got in hoping to drive back the opposing force. If we do nothing, our country will be an easier mark for terrorism and we will constantly feel unsafe.
    Our president is tired of this madness. He cares about our people. He doesn't want to go to war, but when deadly push comes to shove, the initiative has to be taken. It's not bloodshed we want, blowing stuff up or any of that, but it is a necessity. We need to think about this situation and back our president up, and not turn our backs to him. He is doing all he can to protect us as a country before events get worse.

    Why support Iraq? If you're anti-war you may as well be going to Iraq as part of that Human Shield madness and supporting Saddam. Contrary to what one might think, Iraq harbors terrorists, has TRAINED Al-Qaeida terroists, and generally hates America and what it stands for. Anyone remember 9/11? That should be more than enough to make your blood boil. Maybe we are going at it eye-for-an-eye, replacing bloodshed with more bloodshed, but when you think about it, there is no other way. Diplomatic solutions were useless. UN inspections were useless. Iraq won't give up until they eradicate us all. War is the only way, whether you're for it or against it, it will happen. It needs to happen, or our freedom and lives will be at stake. May God bless this country and watch over us in the coming days and months ahead.
  7. TheRandomMenace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 4
    One thing that worries me... is that Saddam can smell us coming from a mile away. WE BROADCAST ALL OF OUR OPERATIONS ON CNN!!! How can we ever be tactical with this poodoo going on?!

    Another is that the draft is going to be reinstated. A bunch of us guys in this Fanforce are in our prime. In other words, we'll prolly be going into combat if the draft is reinstated. I'd rather fight for freedom than flee... but I don't want to go if possible. Sometimes we must do what is requested of us. I hope the Force is strong with us.
  8. JarJarJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2001
    star 6
    One thing that worries me... is that Saddam can smell us coming from a mile away. WE BROADCAST ALL OF OUR OPERATIONS ON CNN!!! How can we ever be tactical with this poodoo going on?!

    Exactly. My family came up with that conclusion awhile ago.

    About the draft being reinstated... and even if you are in college you have to go. I don't like that. There are enough people that are willing enough to go that you don't have to have a draft. I wouldn't last long becasue of my ankle and I also have Asthma.

    I did watch the speach today, but I couldn't tell you that much about it, just that Saddam has 48 hours to get the heck out of Iraq. I was about to fall asleep.

    My Humanities II teacher this morning told the class before we all left that we were probably going to go into war, and there would probably be a lot of protests around campus, so if we would skip class, he would understand, and as long as there was at least one person there, he would hold class.

    And if this is a war just to settle a "family feud" (as Geoff puts it), then it is just wrong. Why kill innocent lives for that?
  9. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    Being anti-war does NOT mean you support Iraq, it just means that you believe that war should be avoided at all cost. Also people who question the need to go to war, have not forgotten about 911. Just look at the New York City Council, that has come out and passed legislation allowing anti-war protests. Even the people who were directly attacked...question W's desire for war.

    And aside from the Bush administration's accusations that Iraq supports COBRA...I mean Al-Quida, isn't it odd that we overlook the fact that many of the people considered leaders (such as Bin Ladden) were once used by the US against the Russians in Afghanistan. Does that mean WE created terrorists?

    They'll never reinstitute a draft in this country (and if this war is supposed to be as quick as Bush says...why would one be needed???) With all the talk about gender equality on the military service, there has been talk of a co-ed draft...never happen. This country still has enough gender bias that we're not preparded to send "our daughters" off to war...unless they choose to go. And as far as myself, I had discussions with my father about this: IF it came down to a choice, I won't fight for what I see as an un-just cause (Bush's family revenge). Put me at an airport, or watching the Golden Gate Bridge...fine, I have no problem with protecting my home. It's just that I find nothing honorable about this upcoming war.
  10. Jade-Walker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 4
    My views a have already been voiced by Brian and Jake, and much more eloquently than I could have done.

    Do I like war? No. But somtimes it is necessary to avoid worse things.

    The UN has already tried to work with Saddam through peaceful methods. What has he done? Laughed at them, mocked them, ignored them. They won't work unfortunately.

    SW: I can't get involved. I've got work to do. It's not that I like the Empire I hate it, but there's nothing I can do about it right now. It's such a long way from here.

    RotJ: Then the Emperor has already won.
  11. Douz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2000
    star 3
    I heard a quote yesterday although I cant remember who said it:

    "Everyone is against tyranny until its time to do something about it."

    This war is something that should have happened long ago (and yes it did back in '91 for those of you who remember it). What I think people tend to forget is that the govt of Iraq is partially responsible for bringing down two of our buildings. The proof may not be there just yet, but I can assure you that there is a paper trail from Bin Laden back to Bagdad.

    This is all about the war on terrorism not some political agenda. When you have approx 50% of the country anti-war, Bush is not going to have an easy time in getting re-elected. Even if/when the war goes quickly (as it did in '91) it will still be difficult for him to be re-elected.

    War is not good...we all know that. However those that join the service and those who go to war sacrifice so that we here in America can remain free and safe. This war is about protecting our safety, our freedoms, and helping to ensure that nobody else decides to use planes to bring our buildings down, or any other means to bring about destruction on our home soil.

    God Bless the USA and those that protect her.
  12. skyedancer Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2002
    star 2
    To quote SW: "I have a bad feeling about this."
    I mean I also have reservations about this impending war with Iraq. If attacking Iraq is the correct action to follow, then why haven't more nations supported this war? Are they all dupes of Saddam or just naive in general? I hate to see the US alienate itself from the international community and from the UN.
    And just because I have these reservations does not mean I support Saddam. He is a tyrant. No one disputes that. What is of concern is whether an unprovoked attack is justified. And by "unprovoked" I mean he hasn't made any strikes against the US overtly.
    One thing I know for certain is that we all do have the right to our opinions and the right to voice those opinions even if they are not popular. That's one of those freedoms everyone is talking about protecting! But I remember how nasty the rhetoric got during the Vietnam era and how if a person were against the war, that person was labelled Communist or anti-American or a coward. I'm very proud to be an American and hate Communism but sometimes I do disagree with national policy.
  13. JediKnightPasJoDacle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2002
    star 4
    Let's blow some stuff up!!!!

    YEEEE-HAAAAWWWW!!!
  14. GrnJalera Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2001
    star 3
    30 nations have officially backed the US is attacking Iraq.

    Does nobody get it?

    This guy is a madman with the knowledge, the capability, and the means to attack the US and do significant damage! This is a man who thinks the 9/11 was a good starting point! He has lied to the UN for 12 years!

    I'm all for peace, but this guy deserves to get his home, his army, and himself squashed. Period.

    I think this country needs to re-instate the old tradition of a battle cry. I doubt many will recall: "Remember the Alamo!" This time, it should be "Remember the Towers!" or "For New York!" or even "We have come here to kick a$$ and chew bubble-gum. And we're all outta bubble-gum!"

    Even is Sadam had nothing to do with 9/11, he still cheered and congratulated those who did. That makes him just as guilty in my book.
  15. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    This is all about the war on terrorism not some political agenda So what happens when I believe Bush's reason for the "war on terror" IS part of his (personal) political agenda? I've had doubts about President Bush's "motivations" behind his actions (including after 9/11). For the sake of not stirring up trouble, I'll simply say I've had doubts his purpose has been entirely honorable. And before anyone need remind me that there are few "honorable" people in politics...that's part of the problem.

    As for the United Nations, I don't think that it's that the UN doesn't want Saddam disarmed...or removed from power; it's just that they are not going at the pace "W" wants it to happen. MY concerns about this war is the President Bush is unwilling to work through a system many former Presidents (including his father) and our servicemen/women have fought so hard to put in place.

    If this must happen, don't get wrapped up in slogans like"Remember the Towers!" or "For New York!" History is full of men who have taken a cause...and used it to justify horrific actions. If the objective is to remove the threat of Saddam (and any possible weapons)...then do it, and no more.

    The lives of our armed forces are too valuable to be wasted on personal crusades, and quests for vengence. I still have my doubts about President Bush's motivations (and expectations0 for this upcoming war. And for those men and women serving our country, I hope I'm wrong.

    EDIT While it's good to discuss these things among ourselves, might I suggest checking out some of these debates going on currently at The Senate Floor It's interesting to listen to some of the various opinions from people all over the country (and the rest of the world). Be prepared for views that are from a different "certain point of view" then what we hear in America. That doesn't mean they are automatically wrong...just listen to what they have to say.
  16. TheRandomMenace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 4
    Well-put, Geoff. I agree with your last post exactly on this. I mean, if we've let the guy stay in power for 12 years too long, what's another few months until we have UN support? And what 30 nations are you referring to, Grn? As far as I'm concerned, America is going to fight this thing out alone. And Saddam's comment that Bush and HIS sons should leave the US in 48 hours also concerns me. I sense a great disturbance in the Force... and it IS something elsewhere... something... elusive...
  17. JediKnightPasJoDacle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2002
    star 4
    All I have to say is if Clinton did his job we wouldn't be in this situation, this should have been taken care of 8 years ago.
  18. Douz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2000
    star 3
    "If the objective is to remove the threat of Saddam (and any possible weapons)...then do it, and no more. "

    The objective is only partially that. Simply put...Iraq has ties to terrorism. The Iraqi govt then supports terrorism. Therefore the Iraqi govt is no more than terrorists themselves. We are at war and have been at war against all terrorism since some fundamentalists decided to use our own passenger (not military) planes against a civilian (again..not a military) target.

    " If this must happen, don't get wrapped up in slogans like"Remember the Towers!" or "For New York!""

    Tell that to the people, fire fighters and police officers who lost their lives that day...oh wait...you cant. Tell that to the countless numbers of children who lost a parent that day.

    We all know of the atrocities (or maybe we once again choose to forget them) that the Iraqi govt. has committed against their own people. Lets give them a few more months before we decide...maybe the Allies should have given Hitler a little more time too...I mean come on,..what's another million people anyways right? The point is...to much time has been given to begin with. This should have started some time ago.

    To be honest, if this war in Iraq stops just one terrorist attack against our country, then it is well worth it.
  19. GrnJalera Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2001
    star 3
    And what 30 nations are you referring to, Grn?

    THESE 30
  20. TheRandomMenace Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2002
    star 4
    Thank you Grn. I appreciate that link. I am always welcome to more news about the war. However, because none of the nations were named, I'm worried that Powell might be bluffing. I mean, I don't know why we would do that, but I'd rather see some concrete proof that we do in fact have certain nations' support.
  21. Douz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2000
    star 3
    "I'm worried that Powell might be bluffing"

    Ok....Powell is not a 12 year old kid on the playground saying I got 30 friends and we're all ready to beat you up. The man is the informed and intelligent. He has more inside information than any of us deserve to know. The names of the countries are there (thanks Grn)



  22. GrnJalera Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2001
    star 3
    Where's the *rolling eyes* icon when you need it?

    What you're looking for.

    Just to name a few: Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Japan (post conflict), Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Netherlands, Nicaragua, Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom, Uzbekistan
  23. Jade-Walker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 4
    I hate to see the US alienate itself from the international community and from the UN.
    As has been pointed out, most of the European countries support us. We will not alienate ourselves.

    Who are we missing?
    Germany? Granted, but there is still a large anti-semite sentiment in that country. No action on our part would lead to Saddam attacking Israel. This is what some large groups in Germany desire. hence we cannot base our actions upon them.

    Russia? Their position changes. They have a decent oil industry. Hence, they will side with whatever will raise the price of oil.

    France? They have a large Muslim constituent. They will never be able to overcome this portion of their population to support us. No offese to those who have French heritage, but I don't see them as much help in a war anyways. Their track record in war isn't very good.

    what's another few months until we have UN support

    Since France and Germany hold major positions that will never happen. Waiting for this is folly.

  24. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    Simply put...Iraq has ties to terrorism.
    Simply put...WE've contributed to the creation of these terrorists. Bin Ladden used to work for us against the Russians in Afghanistan. Then there was the whole Iran-Contra affair. While the destruction of these terrorist organizations is important...Bush cannot go around acting like our hands are 100% clean (dad even contributed to this)

    Tell that to the people, fire fighters and police officers who lost their lives that day...oh wait...you cant. Tell that to the countless numbers of children who lost a parent that day. Again, I'd never dishonor the memory of those who died...since John Edwards isn't available to speak with those "crossing over", I'll simply look to the many New Yorkers (many of who lost relatives on 9/11) who don't want their loved ones' memory to be used as justification for war. NYC protest
  25. corranhornjje Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2001
    star 2
    France also has many oil contracts with Iraq and that's definitely a reason. Also the fact that they've sold them supplies to make weapons is another big one in my book.


    "Simply put...WE've contributed to the creation of these terrorists."

    Well then we're doing the right thing by going in and correcting the mistakes of the past. Unfortunately sometimes the enemy of your enemy is your friend. That was the case with Bin Laden and even Saddam. But now we've let the dog off the leash and they're attacking our kids. Time to stop them and correct the situation. If we "made" them, then we ought to clean up our mess.
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