main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Being Evil for the Hell of it!

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Ben, Mar 23, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Just thinking about villainy and suddenly realised no one is allowed to be a villain for the hell of it!

    Think about it. The nearest to an out and out villainb of the old school is Darth Sidious/Senator Palpatine. Why does he want to rule the galaxy? 'Cause he wants to and he's evil. Why is he evil? He just is! OK?

    There is something oddly liberating about such a straght villai, the ease of response for example, namely: X is bad, we're good, now how do we kick X's arse?

    The trend in SW at the mo is for no one to ever be trly evil:

    The Imperials: It was the top command only, the rest were not that bad.
    Anakin Skywalker: A misunderstood kid.
    The Vong: Merely a very religious race.

    This wouldn't be a problem except the reason seems to inhibit the good guys range of action, despite engaging in slavery, murder and oppression we can't dismiss all imperials because some might be good. Similarly we can't say the Vong are wrong because they have a strong sense of religious duty. Excuse me? Whatever happened to getting behind the heroes while they deck the villains?

    Maybe this is simply the SW equivelent of Wesley's line in an Angel ep where they save a load of fitness fanatics from a demon by killing it and Wesley is smacked in the head for disrespecting the demon's culture by killing it!

    Seriously is it a loss to leave the villains being evil for the hell of it? To move on from the likes of Zsinj, Isard, Vader & Palpatine to the likes of THrawn and Pellaeon and the Vong?

    I dunno, just idle wondering at work...

    Jedi Ben
     
  2. Jedi_Jaina_Durron

    Jedi_Jaina_Durron Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 1, 2001
    interesting thoughts. I'll have to think about that one. But I think we should be behind our good guys, and not argue about the bad guys, whether they deserve to be the bad guys or not.
     
  3. Valyn

    Valyn Jedi Master star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 2, 2002
    I think by giving villians motives makes them more realistic and intriguing.

    For instance, I'll use the Lord of the Rings film. I wasn't impressed by it. Sauron was evil just for the heck of being evil, apparently. It was lame, in my opinion. I didn't like the story at all. I expected some epic adventure with complexity and sophistication. I felt as though a child attending elementary school could have written a similar tale (and I, myself, have done so when in elementary).

    Bad guys being bad just for the sake of it is for pre-schoolers, in my opinion. I like it when bad guys are bad because of reasons. I like intrigue and a level of sophistication. I realize that everyone has different tastes, so I'm not saying people who enjoyed Lord of the Rings (and films/stories similar to it) are stupid.
    I just find those types of villains to be hollow and lame, and that's only my opinion. :)

    Edit:

    I'm going to elaborate on what I've said.
    Examples of bad guys being bad just for the sake of it can be found in Dragonball Z, Power Rangers, and so forth.
    Those types of plots are intended for a younger audience. When one villain is defeated, a more powerful one arrives, therefore, to defeat this new adversary, the heroes need to become stronger themselves.

    It keeps on going and going and the whole plot is essentially described as a "Mine's bigger than yours" contest.


     
  4. Jedi_Jaina_Durron

    Jedi_Jaina_Durron Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 1, 2001
    I agree that they need to have a reason. But isn't it usually for some kind of personal gain? at least, that's the way I see it. And that's a good enough reason for me.
     
  5. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Here's a question though: Is a villain having a reason enogh to absolve that villain of responsibility for their actions? Because it seems to be the case at present. Not only do our villains have valid reasons but they are also OK to act thus because of that reason, as if that reason has greater importance than their actions have upon their victims.

    Is this truly so?

    Jedi Ben
     
  6. Valyn

    Valyn Jedi Master star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 2, 2002
    Personally, I think the greatest villain of all time is Batman's Joker. He's bad for the fun of it. That's his motive--fun. :D

    Sorry, despite all my talk of complexity, I find the Joker to be terribly amusing, hilarious, and downright entertaining. :)

     
  7. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    The Joker.. Truly one of the greats. Say Valyn if you want to see a truly scary joker read Batman: Arkham Asylum by Morrison & McKean.

    Joker is apparently psychotic, uncurably so. He is also a villain who gets real kicks out of being evil. Thus he is of the 'old school'.

    Jedi Ben
     
  8. barnsthefatjedi

    barnsthefatjedi Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2001
    I usually root for the bad guys anyway.
     
  9. _Tenel_Ka_

    _Tenel_Ka_ Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 11, 2001
    Hmmm....

    I've always been critical of villans that are just evil for the sake of being evil, I think it's a sign of weak plot. Also, I really don't like it when people are like, "this is right, that is wrong. this is good, that is evil." Issues in real life aren't actually that simple all the time. Seriously, sometimes I think the more strongly people believe in something, the more likely they are too be wrong (and that's tough for me to grasp sometimes, when I already struggle with accepting the doctrine of my church.)

    Also, if having bad guys that are all complete, purely bad guys, to give an excuse for the good guys to kill them without guilt, then are the good guys really good?
    anyway, that's MY opinion
     
  10. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    TK introdces a killer Q:

    Do the heroes have the right to adminster capital punishment?

    I'd say if the circumstances warrant it, yes. That does not mean they do so without gult, without difficulty or even remorse. Consider Luke Skywalker's destuction of the Death Star, he did it but didn't hit the nearest pub for a victorous bender. In fact if a hero did kill without guilt or some difficulty we might say they had become evil.

    I don't think it is as simple as:
    Total bad guy allows hero to do what they like, we can have a totally evil bad guy but have the hero have difficulty in how to deal with it. Luke on the Death Star II is a good example here.

    Jedi Ben
     
  11. Valyn

    Valyn Jedi Master star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 2, 2002
    Jedi Ben: "Here's a question though: Is a villain having a reason enogh to absolve that villain of responsibility for their actions?"

    Each of us must face consequences for every single decision we make in our lives. Why should villains be any different?

    I will face consequences if I yell at my mother (consequences include: having her yell back, thus, initiating an argument; fabricating a tension-filled atmosphere; hurting her feelings), but I'm not a villain. Everyone is responsible for the decisions they make.
    Just because one is being motivated to make a decision does not mean that they rid themselves of consequence.


    "Because it seems to be the case at present."

    How does that seem to be the case? Assuming you are referring to the NJO, the Yuuzhan Vong certainly are not innocent, in my eyes.


    "Not only do our villains have valid reasons but they are also OK to act thus because of that reason, as if that reason has greater importance than their actions have upon their victims."

    Valid by whose definition? Should the Americans be alleviated of guilt for their treatment of Africans, Chinese, and Native Americans during history? Were the Americans' reasons for issuing this treatment valid? In whose opinion? Allegedly, by some, God's.

    The Yuuzhan Vong are on a religious crusade. I've heard it told that the Americans were on a religious crusade when they were clearing the frontier of Natives. They believe their gods want the GFFA's residents to be terminated or enslaved.
    The same, more or less, applied to God's alleged request of the American settlers.


    I do not believe the excuse "Well, my god told me to" is valid. We are capable of thinking on our own. The Yuuzhan Vong wish to remain ignorant of others' beliefs. I am against ignorance, as are the Jedi, exemplified by their own code--"There is no ignorance; there is knowledge".





     
  12. Valyn

    Valyn Jedi Master star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 2, 2002
    Tenel_Ka: "Issues in real life aren't actually that simple all the time. Seriously, sometimes I think the more strongly people believe in something, the more likely they are too be wrong (and that's tough for me to grasp sometimes, when I already struggle with accepting the doctrine of my church.)"

    I don't like involving myself in religious discussions, because there will usually be a strong presence of ignorance. I am not religious, and my family does not approve.
    I share your view on the matter, Tenel.

    Once, during high school, a strongly religious girl told me that if I don't believe in Jesus, I'm giong to Hell. I asked her what she believed would happen to members of religions other than Christianity. She said the same thing.

    I feel as though that is being disrespectful to others simply because they don't see things the way you do. Ignorant, in my opinion.
     
  13. chissdude10

    chissdude10 Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Ben, I think its safe to say Pellaeon is totally not evil. He searved the navy, whoever it was he searved.

    Zsinji was power hungry, thus making him somewhat evil.

    Thrawn its hard to tell, was he power hungry, or trying to prepare the galaxy for an eben bigger fight?
     
  14. DaJames2

    DaJames2 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2002
    Valyn - With Sauron, the books tell us that he does indeed have a motive. He's kinda like a fallen angel, who followed an even Eviler Master (Morgoth, who just happens to be a God) to gain power that he couldn't with the others, and he has a well-founded history of hatred towards the Elves. He also likes to dominate, and unlike many villains (ala Batman) he can actually dominate large numbers of people and make them his slaves through the power of his mind. Read the Simrillion (sp) whatever pyschological factors go into Morgoth's fall from grace, Sauron is right beside him. Sauron also didn't want to accept any punishment from the victors in the War of Wrath, so he ran and hid. He also hates Numenoreans and their descendants because they beat his side in the First Age and they recieved the blessing of the Gods for a while, and of course there is the slight matter that they got him killed, which is why he now depends on the Rings in order to survive.
     
  15. Valyn

    Valyn Jedi Master star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 2, 2002
    DaJames2: Thanks for the insight. :)
    They didn't mention any of that in the movie, though, did they? All I understood while watching the film was that Sauron = typical, evil for the sake of being evil bad guy.
     
  16. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Well seriously how much do you get from Return of the Jedi about the Emperor being good for the heck of it. It's all in the Simarillon. Sauron was a force of evil that controlled things because he was a creature that was powerful beyond belief among weak mortals and had no reason to be good when everyone was good.

     
  17. Royal_Guard311

    Royal_Guard311 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2001
    This is jumping back some in the conversation, but we kinda need bad guys who are evil for the sake of evil. Yes, in real, life thibgs are never that simple. But, in our entertainment we need things to be simple like that. Basic, pure evil vs. basic, pure good. If they were more complicated than our real lives it wouldnt be as entertaing.
     
  18. Royal_Guard311

    Royal_Guard311 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2001
    On second thought, no one is "evil just for the hell of it." Not even Sidious. Every bad guy has a motive. Sidious wanted to control the whole GFFA. Sauron wanted to control all of Middle-Earth (I'm probably not totally right about that. I've Only read the Hobbit, Fellowship, and 1/2 of Two Towers) Most of the James Bond bad guys want cash. Power Rangers bad guys wanted to Rule earth. It all basically comes down to control. Or Revenge. or insanity. There's always a reason.
     
  19. Waning Drill

    Waning Drill Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 1999
    Beings who appear to be evil for evil's sake usually have their motivations chalked up to the supernatural. Mystical forces and all that.
     
  20. Valyn

    Valyn Jedi Master star 8

    Registered:
    Mar 2, 2002
    Royal_Guard: "But, in our entertainment we need things to be simple like that. Basic, pure evil vs. basic, pure good. If they were more complicated than our real lives it wouldnt be as entertaing."

    Such comments will link this thread to the "Escapist vs. Realist" thread. :D

     
  21. Anakin1607

    Anakin1607 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2002
    As far as evil characters goes...

    I'm reading the Batman: Knightfall trilogy. Wow, I'd forgoten how sick and evil some of these villians were. Bane kills for power. The Scarecrow is an absolute bastard! I so wanted Jean Paul Valley to throw him off a building...

    I know Anakin Skywalker falls from grace and becomes an agent of evil. Yet somehow, I don't really see him as evil. I can't bring myself to hate him. He's just being used as a pawn. He's really lived a life of tragedy. He's confused and has so much power he doesn't know what to do with it. It doesn't excuse what he did, but I'm willing to forgive what he did more than say... Bane or someother complete psyco. At least Anakin tried to make up for the harm he did.
     
  22. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    I don't buy the line that Anakin ever attempted to make up for his actions while alive. He made one appearance from beyond the grave and that was that unless my NJO theory is proved in the next year or so. Luke made up for Anakin's evil, it wasn't Anakin himself but this is a separate debate...

    What I really wanted to ask Anakin1607 is was Knightquest ever released in TPB format? I know there is Knightfall, parts 1 and 2 and Knightsend but Knightquest occurred between the two stories. The trilogy was: Knightfall, Knightquest, Knightsend. as far as I know only acts 1 & 3 were released.

    Jedi Ben
     
  23. JediStryker

    JediStryker Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2000
    In order for a story to really work, you need a villain who does have some sort of goal, one that is beneficial for himself and detrimental to the heroes or someone that they need to protect. Otherwise, a villain isn't a villain. They're the mean old guys we all knew who never came out of their house and didn't want to be bothered. But do they have to have intricate reasons for what they're doing? Not necessarily, but that really depends on taste.

    BTW, another really good Joker book is Batman: The Killing Joke. Really, really dark, but it's Joker at his cruelest and he smiles the whole time. Very well written and drawn. :D
     
  24. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Yup, it is one of the best Bat tales. A Brit production too! :)

    Jedi Ben
     
  25. Syntax

    Syntax Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 1, 2001
    Hmm.. in the SWAJ stories, wasn't Aldaric Brandl pretty much 'evil just to be evil'?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.