Amph Beleriand Tales: The Discussion of the first age of the Middle Earth

Discussion in 'Archive: SF&F: Books and Comics' started by Jacen-Vader, Jan 3, 2006.

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  1. JediNemesis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 2003
    star 4
  2. Raja_Io Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2005
    star 4
    Cobra, you know, I like rhis ^^ parody, I really like parodies of Tolkien (as far as an author really knows the books). But Orion's comments were silly and offensive. [face_plain]


    This is not supposed to be a SERIOUS THREAD, just usage of some words in some situations seems... unsuitable to me.
  3. Cobranaconda Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2004
    star 7
    True, but when dealing with incest you have to treat it humourously lest you find it offensive :p
  4. Kyptastic VIP

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2005
    star 5
    Sometimes all you can do is laugh...
  5. JediNemesis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 2003
    star 4
    I think that's the clearest it's been said so far. I was being an idiot with the whole SERIOUS THREAD thing, but let's not dissolve into total anarchy here :p
  6. Raja_Io Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2005
    star 4


    I just ignored it, you know. Viciously :p
  7. Amon_Amarth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2005
    star 6
    So, you've put that little heresy of yours here too, Cobra. Your soul shall burn in the dungeons of Angband. You shall suffer in agony until you become an orc.
    :p
  8. LifeSabre Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2003
    star 4
    I've read that tom bombadil is just a random character that Tolkien threw into the book who just existed before there was light or trees or anything else in middle earth...i dont believe he is a valar or illuvator though
  9. Raja_Io Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2005
    star 4
    I personally would propose a voting for cannon of Bombadil's identity.

    My vote is for Eru Iluvatar [face_peace]






    :D
  10. JediNemesis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 2003
    star 4
    Maiar, but not Eru.

    Who is Bombadil?

    Just a strange old guy ~ 0 votes
    A Maiar in disguise ~ 1 vote
    Iluvatar himself in disguise ~ 1 vote

    Please welcome the First Beleriand Tales Opinion Poll! :D
  11. Kyptastic VIP

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    Sep 10, 2005
    star 5
    Maiar, but one that was more connected with Eru Illuvatar
  12. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    None of those - I believe he is the embodiment of Arda as a person. Tolkien himself addressed the issue and declared that he was not Eru. Thus, he must be something else. All of the Valar are accounted for; he cannot be one of them. He was on Arda before Melkor descended at the beginning - thus he is not a Maia or a Vala. He is separate from Eru and the Ainur. He is something else entirely.
  13. JediNemesis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 2003
    star 4
    The spirit of Arda? That honestly had never crossed my mind. But now you mention it, it's a beguiling theory - Bombadil does seem to have something of the land itself in him, and he is unlike most of the other races we meet.

    I'll have to think about this. [face_thinking]
  14. Raja_Io Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2005
    star 4


    But Arda was created by Eru, so how can he be 'separate'? He would then be another Ainur, but not a Vala or Maia... However, is Tolkien said son, there's no point in discussing ;)
  15. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    When I say he is "separate," I mean that he is not Eru and he is not an Ainu. He is not considered part of the Ainur and he is not a part of Eru. He is the creation of the song stuff in the Ainulindalë.
  16. Kyptastic VIP

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2005
    star 5
    Alright. But then is goldberry the same as Bombadil or something else (I'm guessing the only other thing she could be is a Maiar)
  17. Raja_Io Force Ghost

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    Aug 28, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah I wanted ask it too but forgot, who is the Goldberry? She's described as "daughter of the River" , does it mean she's a Maia?
  18. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

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    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    I think that Goldberry is a similar phenomenon to Bombadil.
  19. Amon_Amarth Force Ghost

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    Jan 27, 2005
    star 6
    I say that Tom is Ainur, but either he is Valar or Maiar - that is the real question. ;) Maybe he came to Arda as an observer. Valars created, Maiars were their helpers, Melkor destroyed... Maybe Tom was just an observer...
  20. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    This is bugging me: the nouns are Ainu, Vala, and Maia. Their plural forms are Ainur, Valar and Maiar. I have never seen "Ainur" or the like used as an adjective. The proper way to say it is "Tom is an Ainu," et cetera.

    Sorry for the rant.

    But otherwise, Tom was in Arda "before the Dark Lord came." If Melkor was the first Ainu to enter Eä(the Universe), then how can Tom be an Ainu?
  21. Kyptastic VIP

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2005
    star 5
    If that is the case, maybe Goldberry and Tom Bombadil are Tolkiens versions of Adam and Eve, except they didn't piss god off.
  22. Raja_Io Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2005
    star 4


    I do not know how it is with Amon, but in Polish translation the form "Ainur" and "Maiar" was used as singular, and plural were "Ainurowie" and "Maiarowie". That is because of strange Polish grammar - declinations would be very difficult (or even impossible) to use on nouns ending with a vowel. So I guess the translator changed it, to make it possible to read... I promiss I will try not to use the wrong Slavic forms ;)
  23. Cobranaconda Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2004
    star 7
    I think that Tom is the essence of forest, and Goldberry the essence of water. Illuvatar made them and they tended the forests and rivers. I wouldn't be surprised if there were similar things for Caves, Mountains, Seas, etc.

    But I have weird ideas like that :p
  24. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    My idea is more far out than yours. You're saying the same thing as me, but that it's a smaller phenomenon. Not as big as Arda himself, but still rather important.
  25. JediNemesis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 27, 2003
    star 4
    I'm bowing out of this discussion, because I'm honestly not over-familiar with Bombadil - it's been a while since I actually read FOTR, and of course he's not in the movie. I think I've read the Silmarillion more times than any of the Rings books.

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