ST Ben & Han: What was said v. what was heard...

So, presuming nothing in terms of backstory (and even the wiki page is vague enough for us to take a flyer on their family dynamics), I'd like to break down this line in particular from the catwalk scene:

Ben: "Your son - is gone. He was weak and foolish like his father, so I destroyed him".

Han: "That's what Snoke wants you to believe, but it's not true. My son is alive."

So, you haven't seen your son in, what...10 years-ish? It's bad enough that you open your greeting to your grown son by barking a command, ("Take off that mask"), but then...

Now, I'm going off the premise that there were serious family problems. If you don't want to believe that, then I don't think it's a reach to believe that Ben perceives that there were serious family problems (which, to a decent father, will elicit similar responses). But, in his one shot at trying to persuade Ben to come home to his family, to denounce the dark path that - for whatever reason - was more attractive to Ben than the life he was leading, Han is nothing short of dismissive of what is a pivotal moment for his son.

I don't see Ben as a showman; not one with a preconceived plan/vision (force powers notwithstanding) of killing his father amidst a grand drawn-out production and exchange of dialogue. Ben recoils as Han steps toward him, for God's sake. That's so important. When we get this line:

Ben: "I'm being torn apart. I want to be free of this pain. I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it. Will you help me?" <amidst obvious emotional turmoil within Ben> -

- I perceive this as Ben indeed knowing what he has to do, but within the context of two opposing directions; he knows what he has to do to embrace the Light, and he knows what he has to do to embrace the Darkness. Exposing his lightsaber with open palms was Han's final exam; Han could finally take initiative as a proper father protecting his son, grabbing the iconic symbol of Ben's corruption and tossing it into the abyss, and grabbing his son with the biggest bear hug imaginable.

Han failed. He could offer nothing but fear and uncertainty. His seconds-long moment of indecisiveness was all Ben needed to confirm that - despite the tough talk - Han truly was weak, and didn't love Ben enough to take charge - to be a father - when his son needed him most.

So, one more time:

Ben: "Your son - is gone. He was weak and foolish like his father, so I destroyed him".

Han: "That's what Snoke wants you to believe, but it's not true. My son is alive."

Translated:

Ben: "I don't know who I am, or what to do. I felt so unloved, so I had to find my path elsewhere".

Han: "You're wrong".

There is so much to this story. This is potentially such an explosive parable, I hope we see it played out as such.

As always, IMHO.

 

I agree with this post, except I'm not sure about that they hadn't seen each other in a long time, since there is some evidence to support a long separation: "Reaching up, [Kylo] slowly removed the mask. For the first time Han saw the face of his son as a grown man -- and it jolted him." (Force Awakens novelization, Ch.17, p. 243)

Just something to think about.

 

anakinfansince1983

You'll notice from certain terms in paragraphs 1 & 5, admissions of unknowns and hypotheticals; and is supposed to represent a "vantage point" alternative (Ben's), as opposed to an analysis dripping with "facts" (few of which exist anyway...yet).

To me, an unknown family history, an emotionally disturbed young man both powerful and vulnerable, and a final exchange that was bizarre, given the context (to me, anyway) makes for loads of possibilities to explore, when the facts are limited. It's fun to give different types of weight and depth to interpretation; and to see what people's default reactions are to a scene.

 

Whaaaat?

 

I don't get that either. Han thought Ben was too far gone (he was right) but nonetheless appealed for him to return for the sake of Leia, and the family unit.

 

According to Pablo Hidalgo, the whole "seeing his son for the first time as a man" line had more to do with Han not recognizing any of the boy that he had raised/known left in who Kylo was now. Also Pablo has been pretty dismissive/mocking of the idea that Han and Leia bear any responsibility for what happened with Kylo, or that they had some kind of "dysfunctional marriage."

Also:

Spoiler

The stuff that we've been hearing about Bloodlines seems to indicate that that's NOT the case.

I tend to agree with Pablo's comments on this. Kylo, in his own disturbed mind, may THINK that his parents "failed him." But that doesn't make it true, since Kylo seems like the kind of guy who blames everyone BUT himself for his own problems.

 

Spoiler for Bloodline

Spoiler

In Bloodline, Ben is 23 and training with Luke. Leia mentions her and Han regularly Skype/visit with Ben while he's training with Luke, so Han's seen him up until he was 23 at least.

 

Spoiler

That lends further credence to Pablo's interpretation. Han doesn't recognize the boy that he once knew in the evil monster that is Kylo Ren. Kind of similar to Obi Wan almost making a distinction between his good buddy Anakin Skywalker the decent man, and the twisted evil shell of what he once was in the form of Darth Vader.

 

I actually think that Finn and Rey, the leads, create an interesting foil for Kylo, the villain. Kylos was raised by parents, taught by a teacher with good intentions, and despite this stable background, became the worst person possible.

Finn and Rey, by their backgrounds, should've had no moral compasses and been completely out for themselves or their superiors, but they both kept a sense of empathy and moral code that lead them to do the right thing when it counted and let them remain decent human beings.

 

Oh I completely agree. He had a good life and people who cared about him, and he threw it all away for the sake of trying to emulate a dead guy that he never even met. They, grew up in harsh environments with no one who truly cared about them, so them turning into selfish people only out for themselves would have been understandable. But they didn't, instead they became compassionate, moral ones who are willing to risk their own lives/well-being to try and help others.

It's an interesting reversal/dichotomy.

 

To take it even further, Kylo is trying to destroy relationships he has, while the leads are building theirs.

 

I like that it was vague it makes the character of Kylo Ren far more dangerous. It was able to create a sense of mystery surrounding Ben and Han's relationship. It sort of feels like the speculation of Vader and Obi-Wan's relationship before we had the prequels.

 

I think Han putting his hand up to Ben's face after getting a lightsaber thrust through him will continue Kylo's struggle with "the light".
What was intended to be his final act in turning to the dark side will ultimately be the act that redeems him.

There's no doubt they hadn't seen each other in a while, not sure how long though.

 

Apparently that wasn't even in the script, it was improvised by Ford on the spot. That's telling. It could just as easily just be more about Han's character than Kylo, especially since TFA ends on a more sinister note in regards to him.

 

which movie did you watch? To me han showed nothing but love and faith in his son.

 

Well, he was reluctant when Leia first brought up trying to bring him back, thinking there was too much Vader in him. But, once he was asked to, he committed to it all the way, so yeah, I think you're right in the end. I don't really get this alternate scenario at all.

 

It's the conspiracy theorist in me but I think Han knew what Kylo meant when he asked for help. I still truly think Han allowed himself to die to save his son's soul.

 

Trying to put the onus on Han, and characterizing his not bringing his son home or turning his with his words and actions as his failure, for me denies what I saw and heard. The set up is between Snoke and Kylo, with the challenge to Kylo, with "we shall see".

Snoke: There's something more. The droid we seek is aboard the Millennium Falcon...in the hands of your father ... Han Solo.
Kylo Ren: He means nothing to me.
Snoke: Even you, Master of the Knights of Ren, have never faced such a test.
Kylo Ren: By the grace of your training, I will not be seduced.
Snoke: We shall see. (Snoke fades out) We shall see.

Kylo is primed. He goes off, fearing that Snoke notices the temptation to the Light. He solicits help from his Vader imagery. He seeks Darkness, strength.

Han: BEN!
Kylo Ren: Han Solo. I've been waiting for this day for a long time.
Han: (walking toward Kylo) Take off that mask. You don't need it.
Kylo Ren: What do you think you'll see if I do?
Han: The face of my son.
Kylo Ren: [removes his mask] Your son is gone. He was weak and foolish like his father, so I destroyed him.
Han: That's what Snoke wants you to believe, but it's not true. My son is alive.
Kylo Ren: No. The Supreme Leader is wise.
Han: Snoke is using you for your power. When he gets what he wants, he'll crush you. You know it's true.
Kylo Ren: It's too late.
Han: No, it's not. Leave here with me. Come home. We miss you.
Kylo Ren: (conflict and pain showing on his face) I'm being torn apart. I want to be free of this pain. I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it. Will you help me?
Han: Yes. Anything.

This is there then. Han asks him to leave with him. Han tells him they miss him. Kylo asks for "help". Han tells him he will, tells him "anything". Kylo makes his decision. He thanks his father for participating in his succeeding in the challenge laid down by Snoke, by dying at his hand.

No amount of vocal tone or awkward hug would have changed what happened. No amount of motivational introspection in the middle of a life threatening crisis would have deterred the final outcome. Kylo was challenged by Snoke, Kylo made his choice. Kylo killed his father.

 

Han is willing to help his son the problem is the "help" is "I have to kill you" so Han didn't quite know that part, unfortunately.

 

I completely get the original poster´s point. Compared to what was at stake and how difficult the task was, Han made a kind of ... lackluster approach. We know he personally believes Ben is already too far into the dark side (" There´s too much Vader in him") and has basically given him up. When he decides to confront him, he does it for Leia I think, and not really for love of his son... And that does come across in the catwalk scene...
Still I understand why they wrote it the way they did, it is very much in Character for Han and otherwise it would have risked to become overly dramatic, and that is something they wanted to avoid at all costs. (cough Prequels cough). The, well, coarseness of their dialogue makes the one gesture of unconditional love from Han stand out even more.

 

I don't see anything lackluster about his approach, he very clearly loved his son and tried to show it. He didn't really do anything different than Padme and later on Luke tried with Anakin, it's all a "I don't care what happened or what you have done, just come with me, leave this struggle behind, and we will make things right again" approach. It's very much the essence of compassion and love for the other. It didn't work out for Padme, and it didn't really work out any better the first few times Luke tried it either, but it certainly isn't a weak approach or lacking signs of love for Anakin/Ben.

 

Ben was in a state of emotional turmoil. Snoke commanded Kylo to kill his father. Han, in contrast, let Ben make his own decision. Even after he is stabbed by his son, Han chooses to react with love. As he sees Han fall into the abyss, Ben looks down with regret. Han's selflessness ensured Ben's light would not be fully overtaken by Kylo Ren's darkness.